Vegeta's initial plan for immortality

[Michsi]

Does anybody else think that Vegeta thinking that immortality was all he needed in order to beat Freeza was a grave miscalculation on his part and would have been a total waste of a wish?

Unless the immortality he wanted meant Buu-level regeneration, Vegeta would have ended up just as dead.
Roshi, a character that DID manage to become immortal can die just as easily from a mortal wound like any normal human so why would Vegeta be any different? If he got his immortality and faced Freeza wouldn't he had just gotten obliterated?

[goku the krump dancer]

Of course he didnt think the immortality would make him stronger, he just figured that since he wouldnt be able to be killed he would just get his ass kicked time after time and get zenkai after zenkai until he reached SSJ or just became strong enough to beat Freeza.

[CatouttaHell]

Roshi wasn't immortal he just couldn't die of natural causes. If he was immortal he wouldn't be able to beat Freeza but he simply wouldn't die. He'd go through absolute Hell though if he DID try to fight Freeza after he got his wish.

[Rocketman]

I'm pretty sure Vegeta outright says his plan at one point - he'll constantly challenge Freeza, gaining a zenkai every time he gets beat down, until he's powerful enough to kill Freeza and take his place.

[Michsi]

Of course he didnt think the immortality would make him stronger, he just figured that since he wouldnt be able to be killed he would just get his ass kicked time after time and get zenkai after zenkai until he reached SSJ or just became strong enough to beat Freeza.

I never said that he thought that immortality would make him stronger but why assume that he could survive if he head is head blown off?

Roshi wasn't immortal he just couldn't die of natural causes. If he was immortal he wouldn't be able to beat Freeza but he simply wouldn't die. He'd go through absolute Hell though if he DID try to fight Freeza after he got his wish.

Isn't it the same thing? Immortality basically means the ability to live forever but not necessarily though anything.
I think Vegeta would fall in he same trap Roshi did. Wish for something, technically get, only it's different than what you'd had hoped for. He got eternal life, but that didn't mean eternal youth. Vegeta would get his eternal life but if Freeza rips him in half, what then?

I'm pretty sure Vegeta outright says his plan at one point - he'll constantly challenge Freeza, gaining a zenkai every time he gets beat down, until he's powerful enough to kill Freeza and take his place.

Ah, this reminds me of something that crossed my mind while considering this option, altough it's rpobably severe nit picking on my part:
Doesn't the injury a saiyan survives have to be life threatening in order for the zenkai to work? If he becomes immortal like he wants too, doesn't that mean that there are no more life threatening injuries?

[SHINOBI-03]

Garlic Jr. got his immortality wish, and they couldn't kill him no matter how much they threw at him. I think they even blew a hole in his body and that didn't kill him either.

[Rocketman]

Ah, this reminds me of something that crossed my mind while considering this option, altough it's rpobably severe nit picking on my part:
Doesn't the injury a saiyan survives have to be life threatening in order for the zenkai to work? If he becomes immortal like he wants too, doesn't that mean that there are no more life threatening injuries?

Zenkais aren't a conscious force. More damage = more power when you heal, it's just that normally you have to take so much damage you nearly die before the power gain is really noticeable.

So immortal Vegeta would get unbelievably high zenkais because he could take damage far beyond what should kill him.

[Michsi]

Ah, this reminds me of something that crossed my mind while considering this option, altough it's rpobably severe nit picking on my part:
Doesn't the injury a saiyan survives have to be life threatening in order for the zenkai to work? If he becomes immortal like he wants too, doesn't that mean that there are no more life threatening injuries?

Zenkais aren't a conscious force. More damage = more power when you heal, it's just that normally you have to take so much damage you nearly die before the power gain is really noticeable.

So immortal Vegeta would get unbelievably high zenkais because he could take damage far beyond what should kill him.

So zenkai can happen by recovering from any wound? I remember it being specifically mentioned that only if injuries were life threatening that they'd get that power up. His life force would never drop for it to recover.

Nevertheless, I repeat, I doubt a headless Vegeta would still live.

[rereboy]

So zenkai can happen by recovering from any wound? I remember it being specifically mentioned that only if injuries were life threatening that they'd get that power up. His life force would never drop for it to recover.

Nevertheless, I repeat, I doubt a headless Vegeta would still live.

Definiton of immortal = its not mortal, can not die.

Ergo, no matter what anyone would do to him, he wouldn't die.

There are three possibilities to exactly how his immortality would work:

- His body would be invulnerable.
- His body could be harmed, but it would simply regenerate, like Garlic Jr is shown to do.
- His body could be harmed but he wouldn't regenerate. However, he wouldn't die. He would be like a zombie, he would still be alive, with all of his intellect, but with Zombie-like wounds in his body or worse. And if his body were to be completely destroyed, he would still be alive, but he would be like a ghost. A live person without a body.

In all three of these possibilities, he would be immortal, as in, it would impossible to kill him. We just don't know exactly how his body would work with immortality.

[p123]

Immortality IMO, means you just can't die of natural causes. It does not grant regeneration, and you won't die from diseases, etc etc.

Your power level will still determine what kind of abuse you can take. An immortal Vegeta, cannot take SSJ3 Vegetto's KHH to the face and survive. Just not going to happen.

Also, immortality would probably kill the whole zenkai thing as well.

Which is why Zarbon laughs at Vegeta, and smirks at the thought of Immortal Vegeta actually being relevant to mighty Freeza.

Immortality is overrated. Anime/TOEI be damned.

[Bussani]

Isn't it the same thing? Immortality basically means the ability to live forever but not necessarily though anything.

You're kind of coming up with your own definition. Immortality means cannot die. If someone's immortal, but not to everything, then it's like...half immortality. Agelessness, perhaps. Immortality with a "but".

I think Vegeta would fall in he same trap Roshi did. Wish for something, technically get, only it's different than what you'd had hoped for. He got eternal life, but that didn't mean eternal youth.

Roshi didn't wish for immortality. There's no proof Roshi is even actually ageless. He himself admitted he was lying about drinking something that made him immortal right before he faced Daimao.

Ah, this reminds me of something that crossed my mind while considering this option, altough it's rpobably severe nit picking on my part:
Doesn't the injury a saiyan survives have to be life threatening in order for the zenkai to work? If he becomes immortal like he wants too, doesn't that mean that there are no more life threatening injuries?

"Zenkai" are an exaggeration of what humans already do: rebuild themselves stronger after being injured. It's how we build muscles. So long as the person can be injured, their body shouldn't know the difference.

Nevertheless, I repeat, I doubt a headless Vegeta would still live.

If that was the case, I'd ask for a wish refund. It'd be like if you wished for Kuririn to be brought back to life and Porunga said, "Okay, he's alive. But I didn't put his body back together, so he's living dust. Cool, huh?" The dragons generally don't screw you over like that.

[Michsi]

You're kind of coming up with your own definition. Immortality means cannot die. If someone's immortal, but not to everything, then it's like...half immortality. Agelessness, perhaps. Immortality with a "but".

Actually I did look it up for a bit, and as far as I could tell immortality initially does refer to just living forever, defeating the process of physical degeneration.

Roshi didn't wish for immortality. There's no proof Roshi is even actually ageless. He himself admitted he was lying about drinking something that made him immortal right before he faced Daimao.

Wasn't he just referring to that he IS susceptible to mortal wounds?

"Zenkai" are an exaggeration of what humans already do: rebuild themselves stronger after being injured. It's how we build muscles. So long as the person can be injured, their body shouldn't know the difference.

I'm referring to the actual zenkai and how they are said to work in the series. If it's established that only recovery from a life threatening wounds is zenkai than that's how it is. Unless that got retconned.

If that was the case, I'd ask for a wish refund. It'd be like if you wished for Kuririn to be brought back to life and Porunga said, "Okay, he's alive. But I didn't put his body back together, so he's living dust. Cool, huh?" The dragons generally don't screw you over like that.

Maybe we have different views of immortality, I for one believe that immoratlity doesn't imply regeneration. At most, if gets torn into several pieces an he still lives after that, then he lives as several pieces.
And still, Buu was immortal and still died when overpowered.

[Michsi]

You're kind of coming up with your own definition. Immortality means cannot die. If someone's immortal, but not to everything, then it's like...half immortality. Agelessness, perhaps. Immortality with a "but".

Actually I did look it up for a bit, and as far as I could tell immortality initially does refer to just living forever, defeating the process of physical degeneration.

Roshi didn't wish for immortality. There's no proof Roshi is even actually ageless. He himself admitted he was lying about drinking something that made him immortal right before he faced Daimao.

Wasn't he just referring to that he IS susceptible to mortal wounds?

"Zenkai" are an exaggeration of what humans already do: rebuild themselves stronger after being injured. It's how we build muscles. So long as the person can be injured, their body shouldn't know the difference.

I'm referring to the actual zenkai and how they are said to work in the series. If it's established that only recovery from a life threatening wounds is zenkai than that's how it is. Unless that got retconned.

If that was the case, I'd ask for a wish refund. It'd be like if you wished for Kuririn to be brought back to life and Porunga said, "Okay, he's alive. But I didn't put his body back together, so he's living dust. Cool, huh?" The dragons generally don't screw you over like that.

Maybe we have different views of immortality, I for one believe that immoratlity doesn't imply regeneration. At most, if gets torn into several pieces an he still lives after that, then he lives as several pieces.
And still, Buu was immortal and still died when overpowered.

[Bussani]

Actually I did look it up for a bit, and as far as I could tell immortality initially does refer to just living forever, defeating the process of physical degeneration.

Where did you look?

I'm·mor·tal
–adjective
1. not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying: our immortal souls.
3. not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting.

By definition, all causes of death must be overcome or avoided for physical immortality to be achieved. There are three main causes of death: aging, disease and trauma.

Roshi didn't wish for immortality. There's no proof Roshi is even actually ageless. He himself admitted he was lying about drinking something that made him immortal right before he faced Daimao.

Wasn't he just referring to that he IS susceptible to mortal wounds?

Well, what he said was this.

Chapter: 145, P10.8, 11.6
Kame-sennin: “I won’t die…I’ve drunk the Water of Immortality, after all…[ ] There’s no such thing as the Water of Immortality…it was a lie…But if I die, now that Goku isn’t around, there’s nobody but you who can defeat Daimao…However, as you are now it’s still no use…Train more, and one day you’ll definitely defeat him for me…”

It doesn't necessarily prove he isn't ageless (which is why I said there's no proof, not that he isn't), but if he is, it's never explained how. A ridiculously long lived sennin isn't really unusual in mythology and fiction, anyway.

I'm referring to the actual zenkai and how they are said to work in the series. If it's established that only recovery from a life threatening wounds is zenkai than that's how it is.

I'd call a beam through the heart a life threatening wound whether you've got a magic bean, a Dende, or wish ready to recover you or not. How are your bodily functions supposed to know the difference?

Maybe we have different views of immortality, I for one believe that immoratlity doesn't imply regeneration. At most, if gets torn into several pieces an he still lives after that, then he lives as several pieces.

It doesn't automatically imply regeneration, but that's one version of full immortality (and the one H.P Lovecraft's Cthulhu has). The "ripped into pieces and still lives like that" is another. Wishing someone back to life doesn't imply putting them back together, either, but the dragons still do that, so why not?

And still, Buu was immortal and still died when overpowered.

Clearly he wasn't, then. That was just Vegeta making up excuses. Piccolo did the same thing against Nappa, asking if he was immortal after he survives Tenshinhan's Kikoho.

[Michsi]

I'm referring to the actual zenkai and how they are said to work in the series. If it's established that only recovery from a life threatening wounds is zenkai than that's how it is.

I'd call a beam through the heart a life threatening wound whether you've got a magic bean, a Dende, or wish ready to recover you or not. How are your bodily functions supposed to know the difference?[/quote]

I'm not going to go and try to look for logic behind how zenkai function, I in most cases I just take what I have been told in the story pretty much at face value wether real life supports it or not . At most I always thought that the ki, life force or whatever needs to drop dangerously low for the body to register that it's dying.

Maybe we have different views of immortality, I for one believe that immoratlity doesn't imply regeneration. At most, if gets torn into several pieces an he still lives after that, then he lives as several pieces.

It doesn't automatically imply regeneration, but that's one version of full immortality (and the one H.P Lovecraft's Cthulhu has). The "ripped into pieces and still lives like that" is another. Wishing someone back to life doesn't imply putting them back together, either, but the dragons still do that, so why not?

Because the ones the dragons are bringing back to life aren't immortal so they need to be put back together in order for the wish to work.
All I'm saying is that immortality wouldn't have helped Vegeta at that momement against Freeza.
For a Zenkai, he still needs time to heal right? Let's say he gets a whole blown though him and he survives that., what good is he in a fight?

Clearly he wasn't, then. That was just Vegeta making up excuses. Piccolo did the same thing against Nappa, asking if he was immortal after he survives Tenshinhan's Kikoho.

I'm pretty sure Piccolo was commenting on how durable he was, I doubt he really believed Nappa to be immortal (otherwise what would be the point of fighting) And yes, I do believe Buu was immortal. If souls can get destroyed, then apperantly so can immortal beings in the DB universe.

[Bussani]

Because the ones the dragons are bringing back to life aren't immortal so they need to be put back together in order for the wish to work.

Tell that to The Monkey's Paw.

I'm pretty sure Piccolo was commenting on how durable he was, I doubt he really believed Nappa to be immortal

Obviously. That was my point. Vegeta was doing the same with Buu.

And yes, I do believe Buu was immortal. If souls can get destroyed, then apperantly so can immortal beings in the DB universe.

What is the definition of immortal you're going with here, then? "Difficult to kill"?

[Bussani]

Because the ones the dragons are bringing back to life aren't immortal so they need to be put back together in order for the wish to work.

Tell that to The Monkey's Paw.

I'm pretty sure Piccolo was commenting on how durable he was, I doubt he really believed Nappa to be immortal

Obviously. That was my point. Vegeta was doing the same with Buu.

And yes, I do believe Buu was immortal. If souls can get destroyed, then apperantly so can immortal beings in the DB universe.

What is the definition of immortal you're going with here, then? "Difficult to kill"?

[Michsi]

Tell that to The Monkey's Paw.

Different fiction, different set of rules BUT wouldn't this classify as the whishes gone wrong trope?

Obviously. That was my point. Vegeta was doing the same with Buu.

Except that with Buu we actually get to see that he is (or is closest to being) immortal.

What is the definition of immortal you're going with here, then? "Difficult to kill"?

Immortal doesn't mean indestructible. The soul business proves that.

[Bussani]

Tell that to The Monkey's Paw.

Different fiction, different set of rules

It seems to me you're the one making up the rules for Dragon Ball here.

Obviously. That was my point. Vegeta was doing the same with Buu.

Except that with Buu we actually get to see that he is (or is closest to being) immortal.

So Buu's immortal because Vegeta asked if he was immortal because he was close to being immortal?

Immortal doesn't mean indestructible.

So what does it mean? You still haven't actually answered that.

[Michsi]

It seems to me you're the one making up the rules for Dragon Ball here.

Only based on what I saw and read in the story.

So Buu's immortal because Vegeta asked if he was immortal because he was close to being immortal?

I repeat, I don't believe immortal means indestructable. I believe, Vegeta, immortality and agelessness and all, would have been obliterated by Freeza all the same.

So what does it mean? You still haven't actually answered that.

I think it's pretty clear what I mean. If souls can get destroyed than so can everything else.
The immortals from Highlander are also immortal but still still die when beheaded. ( or are they also what you would consider half immortal or immotal with a "but"?)
Something like this is what I mean.