Is GT really inconsistent?

[NeoKING]

Goku commented on the Sigma Force's "amazing" ki very early on in the series, too. It's not really hard for me to believe that just maybe the GT cast's ki-sensing abilities simply improved since Z.

The Machine Mutants were a highly advanced race of machines. To me they seemed like a surreal version of Freeza's empire and the Red Ribbon Army. IIRC, Dr. Myu had been laying low since who knows when, and knows of events such as Freeza's death and what not. I don't remember where I heard this, but it would seem plausible that he, like Dr. Gero, implemented all the data he gotten over the years (including battle data) into the M2s. This would also explain why General Rilld was unnaturally strong (by GT's standards, at that point).

I just don't know why Goku is so weak and dumb all of a sudden, he was getting beaten up by space worms and some other stupid things. Everything seems forced, its like everyone they encounter, no matter how random, just HAPPENS to be a good match for them even though they keep getting stronger. It makes me wonder, if GT, or any of Dragon Ball for that matter, happened a little out of order, the characters would get pwned early on. This is just amplified in GT though, it's like now there just happens to be a super scientist that just shows up out of nowhere that could have raped them iwith his robots f he came during Z.

It was implied during early GT up to Baby's birth that Goku had a bad habit of holding back for no explicitly stated reason. General Rilld even points this out on (IIRC, more than) one occasion.

[Fox666]

Bulma was given permission to go there. However, it's unlikely that Pilaf would be able to go there.

Super Buu wasn't given permission though. He just flew up there.

Majin Boo is a magical being. We can never predict what he can or not do. However Pilaf & co is a different case.

[Savage68]

Boo flying up to the Heaven Realm is still a plot hole, even if you can explain why it isn't necessarily.

[Ashura]

Pilaf and crew making it up to Kami's man-cave... really, if Toriyama ever wanted them up there, he would've just put them up there. The idea of using them as the catalyst whereby Goku is turned back into a kid is actually played pretty well for laughs, and not explaining why they could head up there doesn't really hurt all that much.

[Luke Groundwalker]

Imo GT would make more sense if SSJ4 didn't exist.

By that I mean if Goku as a kid was handicap, it would make perfect sense that he could be challenged by villains like Baby, Super 17, and the Shadow Dragons who should be weaker than Majin Boo.

If it was a legit handicap, where Goku has to use more than brute strength and shonen spirit to defeat his enemies, the series could be very consistent in tone. It goes backwards, but progresses at the same time.

That's how I've always felt, but even before SSJ4 it seems they intended for Base Kid Goku and General Rilldo to be stronger than Majin Boo.

I've always felt that in terms of being a villain, Boo was it when it came to power. Boo in his entire story makes perfect sense to why he's more powerful than any foe before. Super 17 and Baby however? Complete opposite, which I felt made GT more uneven than it needed to be.

Then again I think fans would complain that we aren't getting more "epic" fights than Z if Goku regressed back to his childhood when it comes to power level.

A lot of the inconsistencies don't really matter to me as much as this.

[Bussani]

For that matter, when Piccolo merges with God in Z, the other characters just kid of take it at face value that the Dragon Balls with disappear. They certainly don't know anything about the ins-and-outs of Namekian clans. So they must be assuming, as any reader/viewer would, that the Dragon Balls simply disappear because God "dies." He ceases to be a person on his own; loses his body. That Daizenshuu explanation is really weird and extraneous, considering the characters already make an assumption that the series never contradicts.

Actually, there is a conversation where Goku flat out explains it. Something along the lines of, "The dragon balls disappeared because you and Kami merged, right? Can you split again so we can use them?" Piccolo replies that he can't, and that he was hesitant to do it because of that. Like Herms said, though, the "rules" only say that a warrior type can't create dragon balls, not that they can't be linked to them if something unusual like this happened. I always got the impression that the ultimate balls were supposed to be very strong and very hard to get rid of.

What translation is this?

Someone already said. It's Herms' translation from the Strength Checker thread.

[Cipher]

Fox666, I suppose it is a bit of a plot hole that Trunks can sense Android 17's ki. I'd forgotten just how blatant they were with them being "unsensible" back in the Cell arc. I concede that point.

The Pilaf entering the Heavenly Realm thing, however, I do not. We don't even know how the "normal people not being able to enter" thing works. For all we know, it could simply involve God expelling them, and Dende was distracted. All we really have is a precedence of Bulma being able to enter when there was no God, and Boo being able to enter as well. I feel like it's a stretch here to say Pilaf couldn't enter, rather than the other way around.

Super 17's supposed to be part Machine Mutant too, and the Machine Mutant Rilld had sensible ki (as we see in that infamous line where Goku compares his ki to Boo's). So maybe Super 17 had sensible ki, even though regular 17 didn't.

I actually like this explanation much more. I'd forgotten he was a Machine Mutant. (And even the Sigma Force have sensible ki, from what I remember.) That makes plenty of sense.

It was implied during early GT up to Baby's birth that Goku had a bad habit of holding back for no explicitly stated reason. General Rilld even points this out on (IIRC, more than) one occasion.

Yeah, Goku does a lot of dicking around before Baby shows up. He usually puts the opponent down right away when he gets serious though. He plays with the Muuma (the space worms) for a bit before wrangling them all up. Ditto for the Sigma Force, who he ditzes around with for one whole episode before just tossing them into the air and destroying them with a Kamehameha. He defeats Redict as soon as he goes Super Saiyan, and only has to be saved from Mutchi-Mutchi because he gets caught in a ki-draining stranglehold. And then, yeah, Rilld even calls him out for it.

It makes sense with his character that he'd play around with opponents at this point, as he's an adrenaline junkie and de facto one of the strongest people in existence (both in the living world and afterlife) after the Boo arc. I've written a giant-ass post about Goku's increasing ennui before. This is all part of it.

[Fox666]

The Pilaf entering the Heavenly Realm thing, however, I do not. We don't even know how the "normal people not being able to enter" thing works. For all we know, it could simply involve God expelling them, and Dende was distracted. All we really have is a precedence of Bulma being able to enter when there was no God, and Boo being able to enter as well. I feel like it's a stretch here to say Pilaf couldn't enter, rather than the other way around.

They do mention that no ship can go there. Besides, when you take in consideration how Kami-sama talks about it as "The God Realms" or something on that line, so being in another dimension is more plausible than simply Kami-sama repeling people.

Besides, this is also described in Daizenshuu 4:
"The palace where Kami-sama lives, which floats in the air above Karin Tower. It could also be said that it exists in another dimension."

[Bussani]

I actually like this explanation much more. I'd forgotten he was a Machine Mutant. (And even the Sigma Force have sensible ki, from what I remember.) That makes plenty of sense.

Doesn't Trunks compare 17's ki to 18's or something, though? Or at least recognize it's 17's ki. If it could only be sensed once he was a Machine Mutant, that doesn't make too much sense, either.

As for getting to Kami's temple, the common fan theory was that having nyoibo linking the temple to Korin's tower was what made it accessible to normal folk. I don't remember if it's there in GT, however.

[Cipher]

I actually like this explanation much more. I'd forgotten he was a Machine Mutant. (And even the Sigma Force have sensible ki, from what I remember.) That makes plenty of sense.

Doesn't Trunks compare 17's ki to 18's or something, though? Or at least recognize it's 17's ki. If it could only be sensed once he was a Machine Mutant, that doesn't make too much sense, either.

No, no. That was simply referring to Goku being able to teleport to Super 17. I'm willing to call Trunks comparing 17 and 18's ki a plot hole.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The androids were once humans and are still mostly organic. It's not unthinkable that they have ki. It's just a normal human amount of ki. Enough to sense at close distances and if you're familiar with the person, but not enough to say, search out among an entire planet or city.

The actual plot hole with this is Super Saiyan 4 Goku using teleportation to get near Super 17 during their fight, as he didn't seem to be able to just teleport to the androids back in the Cell arc. Then again, even this may not be a plot hole. We know Goku can teleport toward normal, human amounts of ki. He does so to get to Bulma and others several times. When 19 and 20 show up in Z, he obviously doesn't know what ki to search for until he meets them, and then he's knocked out by the heart virus. By the time they need to find 17 and 18 to stop Cell from becoming complete, Goku has never been near either of them, so finding their tiny ki to teleport to is out of the question. So this is really the first time Goku has even had the opportunity or necessity to teleport to an android. So, yeah, even this is excusable.

That's all just speculation, though. You can explain away any plothole with speculation. It's explicitly stated in the manga multiple times that Androids don't have ki and the heroes are unable to sense them. There's nothing that contradicts this, and #17 himself doesn't seem to consider himself human, as he says:

Son Goku is the strongest in the world, right? Among humans, that is…

When he later says that there is no power that rivals his own, and during his battle with Piccolo:

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P5.5-7
Piccolo: “Your speed is pretty good...But your punch lacks weight.”
No.17: "What? Say, who do you think you’re talking to? I’m Android No.17, the strongest in history…”

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

There's nothing that contradicts this, and #17 himself doesn't seem to consider himself human, as he says:

Son Goku is the strongest in the world, right? Among humans, that is…

When he later says that there is no power that rivals his own, and during his battle with Piccolo:

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P5.5-7
Piccolo: “Your speed is pretty good...But your punch lacks weight.”
No.17: "What? Say, who do you think you’re talking to? I’m Android No.17, the strongest in history…”

None of this has anything to do with your point. Being "human" isn't a prerequisite for having a ki that can be sensed. Freeza and his men had ki, Boo had ki, and all beings in the afterlife(such as Kaio) seem to have a ki that can be sensed, but none of them would even begin to be considered "human", even under the loose definition that allows Goku to be "human".

[Cipher]

That's all just speculation, though. You can explain away any plothole with speculation. It's explicitly stated in the manga multiple times that Androids don't have ki and the heroes are unable to sense them. There's nothing that contradicts this, and #17 himself doesn't seem to consider himself human, as he says:

Yes, yes. Now that people have reminded me just how blatant the characters are about the Androids having absolutely no ki in the Cell arc, I can see Trunks sensing No. 17 is a plot hole.

Goku teleporting to Super 17 still works though, because Super 17 is a Machine Mutant. All the Machine Mutants have ki.

[NeoKING]

Goku teleporting to Super 17 still works though, because Super 17 is a Machine Mutant. All the Machine Mutants have ki.

And that is something that's explicitly stated numerous times in GT. See, GT has consistency, lol.

[monster]

GT has movie characters in the show right?
That brings with it a whole load of inconsistency.

People wouldn't notice these plot holes in the first place if they found the series entertaining.

[Piccolo Daimao]

That's all just speculation, though. You can explain away any plothole with speculation. It's explicitly stated in the manga multiple times that Androids don't have ki and the heroes are unable to sense them. There's nothing that contradicts this, and #17 himself doesn't seem to consider himself human, as he says:

Yes, yes. Now that people have reminded me just how blatant the characters are about the Androids having absolutely no ki in the Cell arc, I can see Trunks sensing No. 17 is a plot hole.

Goku teleporting to Super 17 still works though, because Super 17 is a Machine Mutant. All the Machine Mutants have ki.

Yeah, sorry, I didn't read your later posts. And I agree that Goku teleporting to Super #17 still works, because Super #17 is a Machine Mutant, and they all have ki.

[Puto]

GT has movie characters in the show right?
That brings with it a whole load of inconsistency.

People wouldn't notice these plot holes in the first place if they found the series entertaining.

Cameos from movie characters don't imply that the movies occurred exactly as we saw them. Yes, there is a cameo from Coola in GT. That does not imply that movie 5 took place. It just means that the Coola character existed at some point, and he died at some point. The same thing applies to Higher Dragon being in the Garlic Jr. arc, btw.

[Necrosaber]

I really like this thread. It debunks a lot the wild claims that people make about inconsistencies in GT. That's not to say GT isn't without fault, but I find that the people making these claims, generally don't like the series anyway. I can't tell you the arguments I've gotten into with people who claim that Vegeta's mustache is a plothole. Their reasoning is since Saiyan's hair don't change since birthday, they wouldn't be able to grow body hair. I'll mention the unlikelihood of Nappa being born with a mustache and they'll simply ignore my statement and say "derrr ur wrong derrrr ur wrong". This thread is healthy.

GT has movie characters in the show right?
That brings with it a whole load of inconsistency.

People wouldn't notice these plot holes in the first place if they found the series entertaining.

GT doesn't seem to be following the manga timeline, but the movie/anime timeline. Even with the power inflating and movie cameos, it didn't make GT unwatchable for me - quite the contrary - it was very entertaining and I rewatch it over and over 'til this day.

[Luke Groundwalker]

GT has movie characters in the show right?
That brings with it a whole load of inconsistency.

People wouldn't notice these plot holes in the first place if they found the series entertaining.

Not really.

The only movie character in GT is Cooler, which his movie could easily fit in the three-year timeskip.

Though it might be a case of the character existing in-universe while his movie doesn't, in which he died by other means.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Cameos from movie characters don't imply that the movies occurred exactly as we saw them. Yes, there is a cameo from Coola in GT. That does not imply that movie 5 took place. It just means that the Coola character existed at some point, and he died at some point. The same thing applies to Higher Dragon being in the Garlic Jr. arc, btw.

But nothing even remotely suggests that, so the most logical assumption would be that Movie #5 apparently happened in the main anime series and GT, since Coola came from it. Not that an unexplained alternate universe which we've not seen or heard head nor hair of happened. No, the movies cannot fit into the main anime series. But Toei decided to shove Garlic Jr. into the anime canon for whatever reason, even though Movie #1 couldn't have possibly happened in the anime universe, no matter how much people try to explain away the inconsistencies and/or plotholes in Movie #1 relating to the main series.