Massive influx of hate towards GT - Where did it begin?

[Cipher]

I generally find that people have a positive reaction after watching GT if they've only heard about how much people hate it. I've seen a few "I finally watched GT threads" on this board and browsing others, and most of them have been pleasantly surprised.

Which makes sense. To be honest, I don't think there's anything that bad about the series if you're watching it with more perspective on the entire franchise than people had when it aired, and if you don't take the internal "logic" of Dragon Ball too seriously. (GT ain't exactly tightly woven fiction, but neither are the other two series.) There's a lot to like. It looks great, it's well paced, it's got a great soundtrack, and although it can be derivative at times, it's just as exciting and humorous as the manga at points. Maybe not as good, but I can't imagine anyone who enjoys the other series/the manga sitting down, watching it with an open mind, and completely hating the shit out of it. It's similar enough so that there should be something to enjoy.

So why the hate? Because I can completely understand hating the idea if you were a fan when it came out. It must have seemed fairly disrespectful to continue the series right after the manga had ended, and I can see why there might be a knee-jerk reaction to its very different style. Since most Japanese fans of the franchise now are the people who grew up with it and would have been watching GT as it first began airing, I can see why there would be continued hatred for it. Nostalgic hatred, if you will.

And of course this would carry over to the American fanbase. How were most people exposed to GT before FUNimation dubbed it? Fan summaries, written by people as outraged as any first-time Japanese watcher and prepared to hate it fundamentally. Or fan subs, provided by those same communities. Any American fan exposed to GT before its Region 1 release was likely being exposed to it by communities still harboring residual dislike from its original airing. If that makes sense.

The consequence of all this is that it's really hard to approach the series with an open mind now. But I put more stock into the reviews coming from people who only now, over ten years later, are finally saying "Why don't I finally give this a try?" It seems they'd provide the most honest opinions, and from what I've seen, those opinions range from lukewarm to positive.

[Kuwabara]

The Buu Saga has always been absolute unadulterated garbage to me, contender for the objective worst written piece of media in existence... and yet Toei somehow managed to churn out something even more lame and uninspired than that. So that's where my hate stems from I guess, an abominable conclusion to an otherwise solid series directly followed up with an even more embarrassing display of incompetence and blatant dispassion. As far as I'm concerned the only redeeming qualities of GT are the openings, closings, some vague ideas, and the end of the series.

And yet I have two different releases of it...

[MetaMoss]

I first watched GT when it started airing on Toonami, and I enjoyed it. Of course, I was seven at the time, so my logic was "OMG OMG Goku turned into a kid, and then he went and foug-- Holy shit there's a Super Saiyan 4?!!?!?!! Amazing awesomeness!" In hindsight, I think the show was alright and had some good ideas, but I don't think it quite has the same level of quality storytelling that Dragon Ball and DBZ had. I do find the ending to be a fitting and satisfactory conclusion to the entire Dragon Ball series, though.

[Luke Groundwalker]

I just want to say that I'm getting a LOT of great responses on here, and hope to see more about the history of GT's reception.

But I want to remind people that this isn't a "Why I hate Dragonball GT" thread, unless you're posting impressions from the days before the dub. This thread is about the reason why GT as a series has gone through such a hyped hatred. In comparison, I've seen people find the Broly movie sequels (two of my most despised pieces in the entire franchise) to be better than GT. Or for that matter, use the excuse that DBGT is irrelevant cause it isn't canon, but then discuss who would win: Gogeta or Broly?

Though maybe I shouldn't rely too much on the internet's opinion, as GT does sell more than the original series in America. To balance that out, I've never seen any casual fan of the series directly thinking GT is good, worthwhile, or memorable.

Most people who talk about Dragon Ball canon are mainly referring to the "manga canon". If I'm in a discussion about Vegeta's motivations in the manga, I really don't care what GT has to say about it.

I doubt this, for the very reason that the majority of fans are only familiar with the anime. Of course it's generally agreed upon that Garlic Jr. or the afterlife tournament isn't "canon" most people still consider the anime to be definitive Dragonball I'd say. I would agree with you normally, but I've seen so much people who have specifically stated that GT isn't canon to the anime, which is factually wrong, and disrespectful to the amount of people involved with the first two series who worked on it. I just don't think there's a real excuse for that.

Personally, I think using that as evidence either way is expecting too much consistency out of the man. I doubt he really thinks that hard about what is/isn't canon.

True. But then again, when he made a comment about Dragonball Online's story, he made the distinction that it was a sequel to the manga, something he didn't need to say unless he meant to be specific.

No, GT events aren't included in the Daizenshuu 7 timeline, for logistical reasons if nothing else: the book came out after only the first few GT episodes aired. The first GT Perfect Files book though contains a timeline that's basically a reprint of all the Saiyan/Tsufruian-related entries from the daizenshuu timeline but with GT events thrown in.

Oh okay, sorry for misunderstanding but that makes sense.

Still, that's official material, and I don't think any official material has made any implications that GT is meant to be non-canon to the TOEI series like people are lead to believe. Even Toriyama's comment is very accepting of GT into his idea of Dragonball compared to how he views the movies (including DB Evolution)

[VenomSymbiote]

I'm not really sure where it began either, now that I honestly think about it. In fact, back when the dub of GT was on in grade school, all my friends were always talking about it. It was kinda legendary, in a way- Super Saiyan 4, Super 17 the Shadow Dragons, etc. I myself never really watched it at the time, but I never really met anyone who hated it.

It almost seems to be something that occured only after the dub was finished in this country, and it seems very online-orienteted. So... when did the dub of GT end? 2005? That is certianly when I first noticed how low the series is considered.

Fot the record, I like GT.

[Bussani]

I doubt this, for the very reason that the majority of fans are only familiar with the anime.

Sorry, I meant to say "most people around here." For just about everyone else...I'm pretty sure they don't even know how canons work.

True. But then again, when he made a comment about Dragonball Online's story, he made the distinction that it was a sequel to the manga, something he didn't need to say unless he meant to be specific.

Well, I wouldn't blame him for making it clear that GT wasn't thought about when making DBO. But "sequel" doesn't always mean "in the same canon".

[MasterVampire]

I think it began at the start when they nerfed Goku and made him into a Kid again.

What's wrong with Chibi Goku?

And how exactly is he nerfed? The GT Perfect Files stated he didn't get weaker from being turned back into a kid. And GT itself shows us that GT Base Goku > GT SSjin Gohan. Not nerfed at all.

Pfffffft
He couldnt even handle ssj3 as a kid
If that isnt nerfed than what is.

[CatouttaHell]

Pfffffft
He couldnt even handle ssj3 as a kid
If that isnt nerfed than what is.

And yet he can casually one-shot the entire DBZverse without even going SSjin, let alone SSjin 3. How again is that nerfed?

He also requires SSjin 4 in the second arc of the series, which is easily tens of times stronger than SSjin 3 at least and that he can maintain for a long period of time.

As for SSjin 3, he has no problem maintaining that form either once his tail grows back.

[Michsi]

Massive influx of hate towards GT - Where did it begin?


Probably when it failed to live up to the expectations of most of the fans. Or when they realized that the characters they grew up with and loved were either being replaced or forgotten. Or when they were starting to recycle ideas that fans were probably getting tired of back in Z. Or when the animation quality started to drop and the characters got uglier (THOSE CHINS!!!!)

Granted, a lot of the ideas were interesting , but the execution wasn't done well enough to make them shine IMO.

Note: I have seen only a little of GT and this oppinion is based only that.

[perucho1990]

It began once Goku turned into a kid, then when he,Pan and Trunks went to Space to look for the black stars dragon balls which was more boring than watching Naruto fillers, and also making Goku a God-like character while the others were useless.

The ice of the cake was the Dragons saga, it had potential to be great but it was a flop, only the last 3 dragons were interesting.

[Luke Groundwalker]

Massive influx of hate towards GT - Where did it begin?


Probably when it failed to live up to the expectations of most of the fans. Or when they realized that the characters they grew up with and loved were either being replaced or forgotten. Or when they were starting to recycle ideas that fans were probably getting tired of back in Z. Or when the animation quality started to drop and the characters got uglier (THOSE CHINS!!!!)

Granted, a lot of the ideas were interesting , but the execution wasn't done well enough to make them shine IMO.

Note: I have seen only a little of GT and this oppinion is based only that.

Umm when did this ever happen in DBGT?

None of the characters have been replaced by anything...not even in main character focus. Goku is still the main character of the show, Vegeta is still in his same role (only settled down on Earth), Piccolo is the same, etc. Gohan is different I guess in the respect that he's based off his final design in the series, taking a role as a teacher, who still fights on a consistent base in the series. Not sure what kind of argument that is.

Also the animation quality didn't drop, I'm in the camp that DBGT looks a lot better animation wise and how the characters look. I really love how the characters are rendered more on model with Toriyama's designs...with the exception of the non-Toriyama designed characters of course. That is, however, not speaking of their fashion sense which I agree sucks, just how on-model they are I think they look very good.

When you use non-factual points to support your dislike of DBGT, it doesn't look too good. I think you should a least watch more than a "little" of DBGT before you come up with a reason to dislike it.

[Maphisto86]

The Buu Saga has always been absolute unadulterated garbage to me, contender for the objective worst written piece of media in existence... and yet Toei somehow managed to churn out something even more lame and uninspired than that.

Who could say no to a big bad who looks like Kirby's evil cousin?

It began once Goku turned into a kid, then when he, Pan and Trunks went to Space to look for the black stars dragon balls which was more boring than watching Naruto fillers, and also making Goku a God-like character while the others were useless.

The ice of the cake was the Dragons saga, it had potential to be great but it was a flop, only the last 3 dragons were interesting.

Yeah this is some of the more common complaints I heard. I actually don't mind Goku being turned back into a kid as a plot device but felt it got tired real quick by the end of the Bebi saga. The Super 17 saga, while bringing Seventeen back, was completely uninspired to me. Mostly though I don't think GT could have lived up to the hype, especially without Toriyama sensei at the helm. Perhaps some of the venom directed towards GT comes from this very fact?

[AgitoZ]

Mostly though I don't think GT could have lived up to the hype, especially without Toriyama sensei at the helm. Perhaps some of the venom directed towards GT comes from this very fact?

I suppose many dislike it for that fact alone. But the Bardock special did not have Toriyama either and I don't recall anyone complaining about that. Really GT was just wasted potential, it could've been so much more.

[Luke Groundwalker]

Super 17 was easily the worst of GT, even though the cameos are superior to Fusion Reborn imo. Just such a pointless arc and I could see why GT wasn't so popular after Baby arc.

Then again Fusion Reborn has The Dictator and humor while Super 17 takes it like srs business.

[MCDaveG]

I was excited as hell. After the Z run on TV, I just turned on the TV and...... WTF, new series????!!! Really!!! Yeah, after Goku was turned to kid, it was really a letdown....
Well I watched the series 11 years ago the whole time, because I was waiting for the episode, when he gets back to it's adult form......
Well and with that unexplained ending. This series is really f**cked up you know

[NessMudkip]

One of the reasons I dislike GT is, mainly, Goku being turned back into a child. When Goku was originally a child, he was one of my favourite characters because of his naiveness, which led to some hilarious situations. When they turned him into a child in GT, he still had the mind of an adult, so he didn't have any of the qualities that made young Goku such a fun character to watch. This probably wasn't why the american audience didn't like it, but it is why I didn't.

[Michsi]

Umm when did this ever happen in DBGT?

None of the characters have been replaced by anything...not even in main character focus. Goku is still the main character of the show, Vegeta is still in his same role (only settled down on Earth), Piccolo is the same, etc. Gohan is different I guess in the respect that he's based off his final design in the series, taking a role as a teacher, who still fights on a consistent base in the series. Not sure what kind of argument that is.

Krillin, a beloved DB character is as old and retired.
Piccolo has less than 3 episodes worth of screentime - even in the Buu Saga , while not a fighter, he had AMPLE screentime
Yamcha and Tenshinhan barely exist. - they were set aside earlier in Z, but were still around.

In return we got Bra, Pan, Trunks and Goten, some Vegeta. The first episodes have nothing BUT Goku, Pan and Trunks.
Aside from Goku, I'm not fond of any of these characters. For me, this counts a lot for a story. I get attached to the characters first and foremost. When that disappears, I lose interest in the story. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that thinks like this.

Also the animation quality didn't drop, I'm in the camp that DBGT looks a lot better animation wise and how the characters look. I really love how the characters are rendered more on model with Toriyama's designs...with the exception of the non-Toriyama designed characters of course. That is, however, not speaking of their fashion sense which I agree sucks, just how on-model they are I think they look very good.

Actually believe the quality dropped sometime during DBZ, there is little that impresses me more than fights from DB like both of the Ten vs. Goku; Goku vs Krillin; Goku vs. Piccolo. I don't deny that it art style is faithful to how Toriyama's style looked at the time, especially regarding the colours, but that still doesn't make them look goood to me. I liked them better how they looked in DBZ. And I also like to mention the animation, particular in fights. Strangely, I found that some of the earlier DBGT fights were better looking than what I saw from the major fights later one.

Then again, nothing post Sailor Moon/DBZ era from Toei has looked that good to me.

When you use non-factual points to support your dislike of DBGT, it doesn't look too good. I think you should a least watch more than a "little" of DBGT before you come up with a reason to dislike it.

What exactly was non-factual? Just because I didn't see all of it?
The reason I didn't watch more of it is because I didn't like it. I'm not the type to sit through something I do not enjoy for sake of ambition. But I believe I'm allowed to voice my oppion regarding what it was that I did see. I've been meaning to finish the series because I feel I owe it to the franchise I love so much but it feels too much like I'm forcing myself and thaty's not a good thing for a fan.

[Kuwabara]

Who could say no to a big bad who looks like Kirby's evil cousin?

Majin Buu is actually a fun character, I'll concede to this. The stuff that happens between him and Mr. Satan is legitimately humorous. But man, I honestly could have done without any Buu forms after the initial Super Buu transformation. Super Buu absorbing Mystic Gohan is such a slap in the face to everything preceding it. And after that happened, I never really felt any sense of danger or peril for Goku and friends because more and more ridiculous bullshit would steadily pile up as each episode went on. I knew Buu would eventually fall, but not in any kind of cool, profound way.

[Luke Groundwalker]

Krillin, a beloved DB character is as old and retired.
Piccolo has less than 3 episodes worth of screentime - even in the Buu Saga , while not a fighter, he had AMPLE screentime
Yamcha and Tenshinhan barely exist. - they were set aside earlier in Z, but were still around.

With the exception of Piccolo, those were pretty much the case with Z. Matter of fact Tenshinhan was shamefully removed from the main cast all together in Boo Saga, so I don't see the complaint unless you have a complaint with how Toriyama handled him too. DBGT was largely Goku's adventure, which didn't need Vegeta and Gohan but they both got pretty damn good amount of screentime.

Actually believe the quality dropped sometime during DBZ, there is little that impresses me more than fights from DB like both of the Ten vs. Goku; Goku vs Krillin; Goku vs. Piccolo. I don't deny that it art style is faithful to how Toriyama's style looked at the time, especially regarding the colours, but that still doesn't make them look goood to me. I liked them better how they looked in DBZ. And I also like to mention the animation, particular in fights. Strangely, I found that some of the earlier DBGT fights were better looking than what I saw from the major fights later one.

I'm pretty positive the animation quality is pretty much the same, but Z at least has special episodes and the movies that are sometimes animated very well. Actually while I too like those fights from DB better than the majority of Z, I'd be really hard pressed to say those are better animated or choreographed than, say, Goku vs. Majin Vegeta.

What exactly was non-factual? Just because I didn't see all of it?
The reason I didn't watch more of it is because I didn't like it. I'm not the type to sit through something I do not enjoy for sake of ambition. But I believe I'm allowed to voice my oppion regarding what it was that I did see. I've been meaning to finish the series because I feel I owe it to the franchise I love so much but it feels too much like I'm forcing myself and thaty's not a good thing for a fan.

Saying that characters are replaced or forgotten is pretty much a non-factual statement. Yes Piccolo and Tenshinhan didn't get major time in the series...but the series didn't really need them. None of the characters were EVER replaced, at all. GT just has new characters. I mean who exactly is the counterpart for Pan and Bra in the Z era? (What's funny about Bra is that she still doesn't have as much screentime as her mother in GT) How about adult Trunks and Goten? How did they "replace" anyone? I just don't get this at all.

[perucho1990]

One of the reasons I dislike GT is, mainly, Goku being turned back into a child. When Goku was originally a child, he was one of my favourite characters because of his naiveness, which led to some hilarious situations. When they turned him into a child in GT, he still had the mind of an adult, so he didn't have any of the qualities that made young Goku such a fun character to watch. This probably wasn't why the american audience didn't like it, but it is why I didn't.

Japan also didnt like it and the ratings tanked.

Naruto >>>>> GT Goku.