Was Piccolo shafted by Toriyama in favor of Vegeta?

[Nineteen]

If you look at their character profiles, they both fill out the general "maniacal-rival-turned-stoic-ally" niche which manga is stereotyped for in the West, but which is really common to most fighting fiction regardless of its origin. Granting that there are certainly strong differences in their personalities - Vegeta could hardly be called stoic and doesn't serve as the mentor-type character Piccolo later grew into; Piccolo tends to be less haughty than Vegeta and perhaps more calculating in his actions - they are nevertheless more similar to each other than to any of the other characters.

Yet, even as Vegeta assumed an increasingly important role in the storyline of Dragonball (being the one ultimately responsible for the final transformation of Cell and the release of Buu, and being the only other fighter there to help put the big fat genie back in the proverbial bottle), Piccolo seems to have receded into the background as a character, with Toriyama playing up the Kami aspect of his character and seeming to abolish the original Ma Jr. completely. Even the filler got in on the act, with Piccolo being completely absent from most of the last few films in the franchise.

I don't think it's questionable that Vegeta assumed greater importance to the story than Piccolo. But was it mere coincidence, or did Vegeta's ascent to popularity kill off Piccolo's?

[Travis Touchdown]

I'm inclined to agree with you, assuming an old rumor I heard was true.

[rumor] Supposedly Toriyama was going to use Piccolo as the good guy turned Majin instead of Vegeta to reignite the old Goku vs. King Piccolo rivalry seen in Dragon Ball, but his editor didn't like the idea and told him to have a rematch between Goku & Vegeta instead. [/rumor]

[Metalwario64]

I'm inclined to agree with you, assuming an old rumor I heard was true.

[rumor] Supposedly Toriyama was going to use Piccolo as the good guy turned Majin instead of Vegeta to reignite the old Goku vs. King Piccolo rivalry seen in Dragon Ball, but his editor didn't like the idea and told him to have a rematch between Goku & Vegeta instead. [/rumor]

I am so sick of that "rumor", it's just people assuming, or making up crap because that was a what-if scenario in Supersonic Warriors 2.

[vegetaslegacy15]

I honestly just think its the popularity of the Saiyans and possibly Mr. Toriyama could not think of anyway to get Piccolo up to the level of the Super Saiyan 2s. Or maybe Piccolo just did not have enough potential in him to reach Goku's level.

But it is probably just because Saiyans were more popular at the time I believe, a lot of people started getting into the manga around the Saiyan saga(I believe thats what I heard/read) so most fans probably didn't even see the 23rd Tenkaichi saga or desire a rematch between Picccolo fight Goku.

[enapace]

I honestly just think its the popularity of the Saiyans and possibly Mr. Toriyama could not think of anyway to get Piccolo up to the level of the Super Saiyan 2s. Or maybe Piccolo just did not have enough potential in him to reach Goku's level.

But it is probably just because Saiyans were more popular at the time I believe, a lot of people started getting into the manga around the Saiyan saga(I believe thats what I heard/read) so most fans probably didn't even see the 23rd Tenkaichi saga or desire a rematch between Picccolo fight Goku.

I think thats the reason most don't understand DBZ Movie 4 because they not read or seen King Piccolo

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I'm going to go with Vegeta's being easier to work with as a character, both in increased strength and, if Toriyama ever realized it, as a catalyst.

Piccolo both mellows out and in the Cell saga ultimately and finally comes full circle as a character (Making "Uncle Piccolo" that much funnier); in a series this quickly-written a character who has actually fulfilled all of his purposes is harder to use, particularly when the pinnacle of his power we've heard about for so long was finally revealed.

[Kendamu]

Saying that Vegeta is a replacement for Piccolo is like saying that Piccolo is a replacement for Tenshinhan. Believe it or not, they actually do have different motivations and personalities despite both of them being rivals to Goku and bad guys at one point or another.

[Travis Touchdown]

I am so sick of that "rumor", it's just people assuming, or making up crap because that was a what-if scenario in Supersonic Warriors 2.

Ah, another one of those then. Wonder why Dragon Ball is littered with false rumors like that?

[Michsi]

I don't think it was a consciouse decision on the authors part. If I stay and really think about it, I wouldn't have wanted Piccolo to fullfil Vegeta's role in the story. If I'm not mistaken, Toriyama said once that while he didn't like Vegeta much, his character was usefull. Cell reached perfection and Buu got released because of him,so he did serve as a plot device.
Piccolo didn't really get shafted until the Buu Saga. In the Cell Saga, they had an equal amount of importance , both had their moments in the spot light and then they both faded in to the background, when Goku and Gohan emerged from the RoSAT and took center stage.
But I do also believe that it's Vegeta's popularity that got him that far in the story and yes, I'm pretty certain Piccolo's role would have been different had Vegeta not existed after the Freeza Saga.

[Kendamu]

Piccolo could never have filled Vegeta's role completely. Imagine, if you will, Piccolo showing up to fight Second Form Cell after finding some way to surpass himself in the RoSaT and completely outclassing Cell. The arc would've ended right then and there.

[Michsi]

Piccolo could never have filled Vegeta's role completely. Imagine, if you will, Piccolo showing up to fight Second Form Cell after finding some way to surpass himself in the RoSaT and completely outclassing Cell. The arc would've ended right then and there.

That's the Piccolo we know. Who knows what Toriyama would have decided to do with his character had there been no Vegeta.

Then again, I doubt he would have had him go down the same road as Vegeta simply because of the fact he said liked Piccolo and disliked Vegeta....

[Piccolo Daimao]

I don't think Piccolo was necessarily "shafted" in favour of Vegeta, as he still had a pretty important role up to the Boo arc, acting as a mentor to Goten and Trunks, something which I believe makes up for his non-fighter role in the Boo arc.

I think the fact of the matter was that the powers kept on escalating and escalating until Goku and Vegeta were so much stronger than Piccolo that Vegeta's popularity grew and he essentially replaced Piccolo as Goku's rival. The same thing, to a lesser extent, happened with Tenshinhan. I'm not sure about Piccolo's popularity around that time, but basically, Goku and Piccolo's powers escalated so far above Tenshinhan's that Piccolo replaced him as Goku's rival. And then Vegeta later replaced Piccolo as Goku's rival, leaving Tenshinhan as a background character, along with Kuririn and Yamcha, that occasionally jump into the fight to get their asses instantly beat by villains way, way stronger than them.

[Michsi]

I think the fact of the matter was that the powers kept on escalating and escalating until Goku and Vegeta were so much stronger than Piccolo .

I keep hearing this a lot, but this " because Goku & co. are saiyans .... "can only count as an in-universe explanation. It's the author's choice to decide on who to focus on and Piccolo was the ONLY non-saiyan character that kept up with the saiyans well after he was introduced, which is more than I can say for Tenshinhan. The way I see it, Ten's only real moment in the spotlight was the 22n'd tournament. He becomes severly outclassed by Goku in the span of a day or so and never manages to surpass or even come close to Goku's power ever again. Piccolo on the other hand, does. Saiyan Saga, Freeza Saga, Cell Saga. He kept up just fine all this time as a warrior.
I won't lie and say that the I wasn't bothered by this. (and I still am) that he was cast aside so brutally in the Buu Saga and as much as I liked his role in the Gotenks vs. Buu fight, I would have prefered to see him fight, even if it meant him loosing in the end.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think the fact of the matter was that the powers kept on escalating and escalating until Goku and Vegeta were so much stronger than Piccolo.

I keep hearing this a lot, but this " because Goku & co. are saiyans .... "can only count as an in-universe explanation. It's the author's choice to decide on who to focus on and Piccolo was the ONLY non-saiyan character that kept up with the saiyans well after he was introduced, which is more than I can say for Tenshinhan. The way I see it, Ten's only real moment in the spotlight was the 22n'd tournament. He becomes severly outclassed by Goku in the span of a day or so and never manages to surpass or even come close to Goku's power ever again. Piccolo on the other hand, does. Saiyan Saga, Freeza Saga, Cell Saga. He kept up just fine all this time as a warrior.
I won't lie and say that the I wasn't bothered by this. (and I still am) that he was cast aside so brutally in the Buu Saga and as much as I liked his role in the Gotenks vs. Buu fight, I would have prefered to see him fight, even if it meant him loosing in the end.

Of course it's the author's choice to decide who the focus on, and by the Boo arc, the author decided to focus on the Saiyans. Toriyama made them so much more powerful than Piccolo and the others, with ascending Super Saiyan forms and whatnot, that he eventually shafted them. Piccolo did keep up all the way until the Boo arc, when his power didn't hold a candle to the Super Saiyans who could potentially do something about the ever-stronger main villain.

[Michsi]

Of course it's the author's choice to decide who the focus on, and by the Boo arc, the author decided to focus on the Saiyans

Yep, basically, what I meant.

[Herms]

I won't lie and say that the I wasn't bothered by this. (and I still am) that he was cast aside so brutally in the Buu Saga

Piccolo's shafting comes midway through the Cell arc. He's not much good for anything after first-form Cell powers up.

[Michsi]

I won't lie and say that the I wasn't bothered by this. (and I still am) that he was cast aside so brutally in the Buu Saga

Piccolo's shafting comes midway through the Cell arc. He's not much good for anything after first-form Cell powers up.

I don't see it like that because, as I said, he had a great and long moment in the spot light in that arc. Yes, Vegeta surpassed him not long after that , but I got used to this formula of "character that enters the story is stronger than the character before him". Not to mention, AT had Piccolo enter the RoSaT to upgrade his power even though he was obvioulsy not gonna be used in the Cell Games chapters and I am completely convinced that Piccolo was fairly close to Trunks and Vegeta power wise after that training. Personally, I say they were treated equally as characters in that saga.

[cRookie_Monster]

Piccolo is also a lot older character than Vegeta. Did Vegeta get shafted by not being in DB?

I think it makes sense.

[vegetaslegacy15]

Piccolo is also a lot older character than Vegeta. Did Vegeta get shafted by not being in DB?

I think it makes sense.

Yeah but I am certain that Vegeta's character was not even an inkling of a thought back in DB. Hell the idea of Saiyans was not even in Mr. Toriyama's head at the time.

He did however have the idea of Piccolo being an alien !!!!!!

[Piccolo Daimao]

I won't lie and say that the I wasn't bothered by this. (and I still am) that he was cast aside so brutally in the Buu Saga

Piccolo's shafting comes midway through the Cell arc. He's not much good for anything after first-form Cell powers up.

I don't think so. He fires the Gekiretsu Kodan, a blast so powerful that #17 had to dive out of the way and #18 believed he'd killed Cell. He later trains in the RoSaT along with Goku, Gohan, Vegeta and Trunks, while Tenshinhan, who's already long been shafted, declines. And at the Cell Games, he, Vegeta and Trunks are the only warriors who can hold their own against the Cell Juniors.

His shafting only comes until the Boo arc, when he and Kuririn are turned to stone by Dabra and the Saiyans get to go into Bobbodi's spaceship. But even then, he still has a somewhat important role in mentoring Goten and Trunks for their Fusion.