Why Mr. Steve Simmons left Japanese honorifics?

[ulisa]

I'm still in the early stages of learning japanese but honorifics can be tricky. I personally prefer them to be translated and not "americanized" (for lack of a better word) however, there are some cases where I think leaving it "as is" is acceptable. Those cases are typically times were there is no good english equivilent.

-chan is pretty good example in some instances. When used from a parent to a child (as in the case of ChiChi to Gohan in DBZ) I have seen it translated as "dear Gohan" or something similiar, which while sounding odd, isn't too far off the mark. Used from a girlfriend to a boyfriend, as is the case of Usagi in Sailor Moon, I usually see it translated similarly "Dear Mamoru" or in some cases "beloved"

However, a major point that I see in a lot of shojo anime (a few rare shonen as well) is the use of -chan as endearment among female friends. In that case, there really isn't a good english word for that. A lot of translators just leave it as the friend's name but I don't think this is a good route either. Most of those anime also have a group of friends where most use 'chan' but there is one or two really close friends who do not need to use a suffix, which is usually indicative of much closer bond, one that I think is usually lost in translation when "chan" is left out.

Actually, I think the lack of a suffix is one thing a lot of translators miss, considering that can either be a great DISrespect or evidence of a close relationship, depending on the context.

Words like -sama, -san I think can be translated pretty well. The dub of Inuyasha did this a bit odd in some places. When they originally have the villagers referring to the deceased Kikyo, the dub uses: "That's Kikyo-sama to those that respect her!" but then ever after that scene, they use "Lady Kikyo." While I see that as a pretty close title, it's a bit odd that they kept the "sama" bit in for one line and not for the rest.

I think words like "Ani-ue" or "Chichi-ue" which I usually see in anime which take place further back in history, are a little trickier to translate. In this case, because I see it the word as meaning much more respect than just 'Father' or "Elder Brother' would demonstrate, the translation is a bit difficult. The closest translation I have seen was "Most Respected Father" for 'chichi-ue'

I think you really have to keep the context in mind, especially in the terms of respect for characters for one another. Some one who calls their father "oyaji" or 'otou-chan' instead of 'otou-sama' definitely have different meanings for the word than just 'father.'

Ulisa

[obiwan23s]

Anyone trying to drop the -chan or -kun and replace it with something like "dear" is trying a little too hard. I wouldn't say I have a beef against this, in particular, but I have always found it highly laughable when people insist that basic honorifics like -san, -chan and -kun be left in subtitles because they convey aspects of the characters' relationships not found anywhere else. Pay attention to the way they interact in the animation, the general tone and delivery of dialogue and the dialogue's context. Active participation in these other elements will give you a far better understanding anyway. I prefer to simply omit basic honorifics such as these. Subtitles isn't about producing a completely literal translation but rather representing a literal translation as if it were said by a native speaker of your target language.

I used to grow ridiculously tired of seeing -sama left in fansub scripts because it's really easy to translate. A lot of people tend to think you need to wholesale use "Master" or "Lord" for it but those are not necessary depending on the context of that character's relationship to everyone else. One example I can think of where I was able to work -sama around to "Mister" was in Gundam Seed Destiny. There's a scene where the Archangel crew takes in some survivors after a battle and the pilots realize they're on the same ship as Kira Yamato, whom they all know as a hero from the war. At one point they are discussing strategy or philosophy or some such (been a while since I've seen it) and the commander of the survivor crew addresses him as Kira-sama. This is awkward for several reasons as Kira is obviously much younger than the older commander and has no rank over him. So it boils down to Kira was addressed using -sama either because of: A) His reputation from the previous war, or B) His relation to his sister, who is a political leader although Kira himself is a pilot and not involved with government. I went with "Mr. Yamato," slipping in his surname even though the spoken line used his given name, as that's how we'd do it most of the time in English when speaking to someone we have no prior relationship with and only know based on their reputation as a success. I took some heat for that one from fans as well, but the funny thing is when the dub came out a year or two later, it did the same thing. But with -sama, the rule I've always used is identify WHY these people use that title. If someone is clearly not royalty and doesn't have rank or control over anyone else, don't use Master or Lord if they're addressed as -sama.

The more higher-respect family honorifics like hahaue, chichiue, etc are really easy to work with because the English language pretty much nails it down that "Mother" and "Father" are the ones you go with for a formal and respectful tone. I always work down with those, so for chichiue I'd use "Father," for otou-san I'd use "Dad" and for something like oyaji I'd use "Pops" or "My old man." I use those latter-most terms quite a bit myself, personally. The ones for siblings, once again, don't carry over into English that well because we use given names to address siblings almost all of the time. I always fall back on the idea of making the overall tone of the dialogue more formal and sticking with a given name when faced with ones like aneue and aniue.

[sangofe]

I'm no master in this field, but I do have different experience with how anime's been translated, since I've been doing timing of fansubs over the last few years. From my overall experience I can say that often, or in most cases, honorifics aren't really needed, and it really depends on the situation whether or not they should be translated, for example, "Mr." or "Ms." would sometimes be appropriate as a translation for "-san", while sometimes it's not needed to translate them, as for -kun is, as far as I know, totally not needed, same goes with -chan, because there is no equivalent in the English language.

Things like "-sama", and "-sensei" can in most cases be translated, but also here, it'd be weird to translate them, especially in animes where certain characters abuse the word "-sama" (often translate as someone higher/master). Sensei I think is fine to translate most of the times.

I used to be one of those who always wanted honorifics kept in my anime subs, but now it doesn't matter too much to me anymore, as long as they're translated when it's appropriate to.

[Cipher]

I went with "Mr. Yamato," slipping in his surname even though the spoken line used his given name, as that's how we'd do it most of the time in English when speaking to someone we have no prior relationship with and only know based on their reputation as a success. I took some heat for that one from fans as well, but the funny thing is when the dub came out a year or two later, it did the same thing. But with -sama, the rule I've always used is identify WHY these people use that title. If someone is clearly not royalty and doesn't have rank or control over anyone else, don't use Master or Lord if they're addressed as -sama.

See, while normally I'd agree with naturalizing the translation as much as possible, I can't agree with this.

Subtitles, for me, fall into a different category of translation from, say, prose or comic book dialogue. In the cases of prose and comics, naturalizing as much as possible should be the primary concern. Get rid of all awkward phrasing, all honorifics, all anything that wouldn't produce as natural an experience for the English reader as those fluent in the original language.

But subtitles have this other tricky thing going on: the audience can hear the dialogue. And while there's definitely a danger in keeping too much of the original language, I think there's just as much a danger in ignoring it. I've seen some subtitles where the same words or phrases will be repeated with different on-screen translations. It works in context, sure, and it would work in any non-screen translation, but with subtitles, it creates a serious disconnect, because the audience is hearing the same phrase, whether they speak the language or not, and seeing different translations. They have to stop to ask themselves just what the hell is going on.

Ditto for your example of using the characters' last name to avoid "sama." In prose or on a manga page, that would be a very eloquent way of addressing it. But on screen, when I can hear the characters using the first name even if I don't know a lick of Japanese, it's just an awkward disconnect.

In that same vein, I think subtitles can and should make use of the fact the audience can hear the original dialogue to be a bit more literal. This is why I'll always stick by Simmon's fairly "robotic" translations. On a page, Simmons' translations would be terrible; you'd get none of the tone, you'd lose all natural fluidity, etc. But when the audience, regardless of whether or not they speak the language, can hear the characters' delivery, it evens it out. You get the most accurate, literal translation, and you can couple it with the actors' tones and delivery to pick up on all the missing subtext. It requires one more step on the part of the audience, but it's something that should be a natural process anyway, and it ensures one of the most accurate experiences possible.

On that note, I say leave honorifics unless it's just too stark a contrast in the setting (say, a Japanese production set in a Western country). The audience is hearing them anyway; throw them in. It only takes a minute to look up. They don't belong in page adaptations, and if there's another way of saying "sensei," you should, but overall, I don't find it particularly awful to keep them.

EDIT--

I just realized TonyTheTiger basically said the same thing two pages back. But, yeah. With a dub, a prose translation, or a comic translation, naturalize the language as much as possible. With a subtitle track (which is meant to be watched in tandem with the actors' dialogue), you'd better give me an analogue to everything I'm hearing. It will be more robotic, but it's not meant to be read on its own, and it can make up the difference through the actors' performances. That, and anything else will produce too much of a disconnect.

[obiwan23s]

Cipher, believe me I struggled with that one and I see your point but I doubt there was much disconnect, if any, over replacing a major character's given name with his surname. Had you not seen the first series and decided it was a bright idea to pick up the sequel midway through its season, you might be confused, but I'm perfectly convinced that group is a relatively microscopic minority. It's no different than inserting given names in the place of family pronouns like onee-chan or nii-san, as your brain would tell you that you heard words for sister or brother yet read a given name in the subtitle. Perhaps it wasn't completely necessary, but it would be like Luke being addressed as "Mr. Skywalker" in Star Wars.

Could I have done "Mr. Kira"? Yes and no. That would have went along with the audio but using Mr./Ms. before a given name is largely something we do when speaking to children in English. Like, "Billy, you behave for Mr. Jack and Mrs. Jill until mommy comes home."

[Adamant]

In that particular situation, wouldn't something like just "sir" have worked well?

[Bussani]

In that same vein, I think subtitles can and should make use of the fact the audience can hear the original dialogue to be a bit more literal. This is why I'll always stick by Simmon's fairly "robotic" translations. On a page, Simmons' translations would be terrible; you'd get none of the tone, you'd lose all natural fluidity, etc. But when the audience, regardless of whether or not they speak the language, can hear the characters' delivery, it evens it out. You get the most accurate, literal translation, and you can couple it with the actors' tones and delivery to pick up on all the missing subtext. It requires one more step on the part of the audience, but it's something that should be a natural process anyway, and it ensures one of the most accurate experiences possible.

Not to mention that most people on this forum have lots of reasons for wanting to know how a line was literally written in the original. The Translation Request thread is proof of that. Sometimes when I haven't been sure about how Viz has written a line in the manga, I pop the DVD in and check Mr. Simmons' subtitles. Of course, that doesn't have much to do with honorifics.

[obiwan23s]

In that particular situation, wouldn't something like just "sir" have worked well?

I don't think so because not only is Kira younger than the man addressing him, he's not a soldier and more of an independent pilot anyway. It'd be like running into a famous sports star like Tom Brady somewhere in public and asking for his autograph. You'd see him and have the visual recognition, followed by a formal tone, "Excuse me Mr. Brady, may I please have your autograph?" I think the honorifics in fan subtitles thing is just a natural preferential evolution from the "bad" dubs of the early days and early home video releases where the subtitles weren't taken as seriously as they are now. I know that not having competent releases of Dragon Ball is definitely what got me into wanting to learn Japanese (I started studying it in high school when the only DVDs out were dub-only), but thankfully FUNimation picked up Simmons and as of a few months from now will have a nearly perfect start-to-finish DVD release. But part of what got me into doing fan translations was how utterly sick I became of seeing honorifics in fansubs mecha shows like Gundam clearly influenced by every Western sci-fi work under the sun and featuring characters the studio itself says are not Japanese.

That's why I don't have a problem with them in Dragon Ball as much as I would Fullmetal Alchemist or One Piece or something like that. Dragon Ball has Asian influences all over it and would be extremely difficult to translate in the style that I support. You can work with your source material, but the more popular shows that everyone watches tend to fall into the category of being able to work around the honorifics.

[Cipher]

It's no different than inserting given names in the place of family pronouns like onee-chan or nii-san, as your brain would tell you that you heard words for sister or brother yet read a given name in the subtitle.

Actually, I'll defend this as well. Leaving it as "brother" or "sister" in a dub or text translation would be terribly unnatural. But in a subtitle track, even if I don't know Japanese, I know what I'm hearing isn't their name, so don't mess with me. Sure, no English speaker would call someone "brother" like that, but that should be common knowledge anyway, so don't draw me out of the show by creating a disconnect between what I'm reading and hearing. I can piece together the fact that it's a Japanese colloquialism on my own; just make sure what I'm reading matches what I'm hearing.

There's no perfect way to do a subtitle track. It's always going to be more awkward than a straight text translation because of the audio element. I just think it falls to both the translator and viewer to realize that the track is meant to be paired with the actors' dialogue, and that, yeah, there's going to be a little subconscious work in piecing those two together.

[KiddoCabbusses]

This thread just made me think of something.

Does anyone have an archive of all of Nippon Golden Network's subtitled DB/Z eps?
I got a few Freeza-era Z eps on VHS (very crummy quality, but hey, this was ages before DBox), and I think their translation is the closest DBZ was subtitled in the "Old fashioned professional subtitling" style, although the font's a bit big and very short phrases and words that can be used as cusses are left untranslated. And they somehow really screwed up the name "Bejeeta".

[Super Sonic]

Hey obiwan, how did Bandai handle addressing Kira in their dvds?

[Herms]

And they somehow really screwed up the name "Bejeeta".

Well, "Bejeeta" doesn't fit the name pun one bit but it's still a valid spelling.

[obiwan23s]

There's no perfect way to do a subtitle track. It's always going to be more awkward than a straight text translation because of the audio element. I just think it falls to both the translator and viewer to realize that the track is meant to be paired with the actors' dialogue, and that, yeah, there's going to be a little subconscious work in piecing those two together.

I more or less agree with the first part of this but I don't particularly agree with you on there needing to be a marriage between nouns and pronouns with respect to what is said and what is written in the subtitle. Dialogue is used in conjunction with the animation and the rest of the audio track to tell a story. Even the slightest knowledge of the Japanese language is going to induce some form of active listening, and even when rewatching my own work I'll notice where I swap names for family pronouns and what not. When watching someone else's work, I am constantly rewording things in my head and it can get to the point where I just turn subtitles off and watch naturally. Once you start to learn Japanese, you can't really avoid thinking about it while listening. It taints the experience quite a bit in my opinion.

We can dive further into things like characters speaking in child form, using their name in place of a personal pronoun. This is highly unheard of in the English language and just comes across as awkward when reading a subtitle like "Suzaku thinks we should go with them!" or something. Thinking about it from the Japanese mindset, there's nothing wrong with speaking like that but reading it with the intention of experiencing the story told through the English language, that would lead me to believe Suzaku is of a lesser mental development than everyone else, which probably is not the case. Yes, there is potential for audio/visual disconnect when dealing with swapping but I don't see it as the deal breaker you do. This seems to only be an issue if you have prior knowledge of the Japanese language or simple vocabulary learned through watching anime. I think you have to produce your subtitles for the lowest common denominator, which in the case of subtitles for anime, is someone who has no understanding of the Japanese language whatsoever. I'd never support anything that compromises accuracy of the original dialogue, which swapping decisively does not do; it's just a simple, cosmetic tweak.

Hey obiwan, how did Bandai handle addressing Kira in their dvds?

I have no clue to be perfectly honest with you. I have the R2 set which obviously does not have subtitles. I know someone who has the R1's though, I'll try to find the episode with that scene and ask him to check.

[Cipher]

This seems to only be an issue if you have prior knowledge of the Japanese language or simple vocabulary learned through watching anime.

Ah, well, I suppose I have to concede this point a bit. I've taken five years of Japanese, so maybe my relative familiarity with it has tainted my philosophy on subtitles, since while Japanese media isn't the only thing I watch with subtitles, it's definitely the most frequent.

So, yeah, maybe the things that bother me aren't things that would bother most viewers.

[Daimao]

It seemed like a good idea at the time. That, and back then (perhaps even now), anyone who chooses to intentionally watch the Japanese track over the English one is presumed to be able to handle a more Japanesey flavor to the translation.
As for "Kai," I was specifically asked to leave them in, to keep consistency with "Z." Never mind that the entire "Kai" translation was done from scratch.

[JulieYBM]

That, and back then (perhaps even now), anyone who chooses to intentionally watch the Japanese track over the English one is presumed to be able to handle a more Japanesey flavor to the translation.

Yeah, that's always been what I've thought too. I don't switch on the subs to have a script that pretty much reads like an English dub's. This was espicially painful for Sengoku Basara. >_<

[sangofe]

This thread just made me think of something.

Does anyone have an archive of all of Nippon Golden Network's subtitled DB/Z eps?
I got a few Freeza-era Z eps on VHS (very crummy quality, but hey, this was ages before DBox), and I think their translation is the closest DBZ was subtitled in the "Old fashioned professional subtitling" style, although the font's a bit big and very short phrases and words that can be used as cusses are left untranslated. And they somehow really screwed up the name "Bejeeta".

Soooooomewhere I should have .rm copies... Somewhere in Norway (somewhere I won't go back to for a year).

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

On that note, I say leave honorifics unless it's just too stark a contrast in the setting (say, a Japanese production set in a Western country). The audience is hearing them anyway; throw them in. It only takes a minute to look up.

I'm sorry if I sound rude, but they shouldn't have to. It's a translation. Of course, hardcore fans know what they mean, but non-fans do exist and they do sometimes watch Anime. I'm fine with siblings calling each other "brother" and "sister". Any half-wit can deduce that doing so must be a Japanese custom. It doesn't require any outside knowledge. Honorifics, however, do require outside knowledge. And that's my issue. Their being left in is just not in accord with what I consider a translation. As for "the viewer is hearing them anyway" argument, the same can be said about "desu" and "nakama".

[Adamant]

Does anyone have an archive of all of Nippon Golden Network's subtitled DB/Z eps?
I got a few Freeza-era Z eps on VHS (very crummy quality, but hey, this was ages before DBox), and I think their translation is the closest DBZ was subtitled in the "Old fashioned professional subtitling" style, although the font's a bit big and very short phrases and words that can be used as cusses are left untranslated. And they somehow really screwed up the name "Bejeeta".

Not Dragonball, but I got a bunch of their Dr. Slump. As you say, the translation is very "old professional", with simplified lines so people have to read less words, and short and quick lines people are assumed to understand anyway ignored completely. The timing is horrible, and there's a couple oddities in there (character names usually being replaced by "you" to the extent a deaf viewer could go several episodes without knowing most people's names, and Senbei ALWAYS being referred to as "Dr. Slump" for some reason), but they're otherwise very professionally-accurate.

That, and back then (perhaps even now), anyone who chooses to intentionally watch the Japanese track over the English one is presumed to be able to handle a more Japanesey flavor to the translation.

While people are still "able to", the outcry for normalized English without untranslated Japanese in subtitles of Japanese material has definitely been on the rise as of late.
Some 30-40% of fansub groups out there keep Japanese honorifics out of their releases, and while the issue of honorifics was mostly ignored, neither fans nor translator (Mandelin) wanted the word "haki" untranslated in the Funimation One Piece subs, and there was a lot of loud protesting when Toei insisted it be kept as "haki" in the online streams.

[JulieYBM]

On that note, I say leave honorifics unless it's just too stark a contrast in the setting (say, a Japanese production set in a Western country). The audience is hearing them anyway; throw them in. It only takes a minute to look up.

I'm sorry if I sound rude, but they shouldn't have to. It's a translation. Of course, hardcore fans know what they mean, but non-fans do exist and they do sometimes watch Anime.

Are these same people going to watch the shows in Japanese? It certainly doesn't look like it, when you consider the claims that damn near "all anime fans prefer dubs." If someone is willing to watch a show subtitled, that means they're open to learning new things. Having subtitles that completely ignore honorifics or attempt a translation go nowhere. What's more, 'nakama' has a clearly defined meaning and isn't treated as a title. '-san' and 'sensei' (both words already known in the English lexicon, so why not let the rest of them join? Education is fun), in addition to '-dono', '-kun', '-chan', and '-sama' don't work in the same way.

While people are still "able to", the outcry for normalized English without untranslated Japanese in subtitles of Japanese material has definitely been on the rise as of late.
Some 30-40% of fansub groups out there keep Japanese honorifics out of their releases, and while the issue of honorifics was mostly ignored, neither fans nor translator (Mandelin) wanted the word "haki" untranslated in the Funimation One Piece subs, and there was a lot of loud protesting when Toei insisted it be kept as "haki" in the online streams.

That sounds more like a case of fans being apologists, despite the fact that the old practices are already long legitimate.

'Haki' is the One Piece 'Ki' or 'Chakra'. Oda knows how to use an English dictionary. If he wanted to call it something English, he would have.