Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Piccolo Daimao]

Lion Fang Style Guy vs Karate Bear vs Bruce Lee... Who's strongest?

In the manga, we don't really see enough of the Lion Fang-style guy or the karate bear to compare against Bruce Lee, as they're just preliminary fodder for Goku and the others. So I'd say Bruce Lee's the strongest, purely because we know about his legendary status and have seen much more from him than these guys.

EDIT: Looking at your subsequent post, I realize you were talking about the guy who looked like Bruce Lee who fought Kuririn in the 21st TB preliminaries. You should've clarified. Either way, there's still no way to properly compare them, as they don't do much but get their asses kicked by Goku and co.

[Kirby456]

Lion Fang Style Guy vs Karate Bear vs Bruce Lee... Who's strongest?

In the anime Fighter 83 had some decent moves the same with Fighter 97 id say there easyly above Mr Satan and Videl Bruce Lee dodged one of Krillins hits in the anime maybe in the manga and stomped him even though he didn't do crap hes still strong enough to at least see his moves.. if your referring to the Bruce lee look a like in the anime pretty sure he was in the manga to... so ill give it to him.

[Kirby456]

Allright ill start out with the Pilaf Saga

Emperor Pilaf Saga
Master Roshi-30
Ox-King
Goku-12
-Tailless-11
Yamcha-10
Krillin-9
Bear Thief-8

(note Satan and Videls bps are 7.50-7 around there)

How does it look so far?.

[p123]

Well that's one way of doing things. But Bruce Lee was shown to have caught Kuririn off guard. And he gave him his all, and still did nothing.

I'm a big believer in the progressive theory.

If A , B , C occur.

C > B > A

That the stronger fighter always goes after the weaker fighter...



Wolf also gave Yamcha somewhat of a problem, and Lang Chang, the girl finalist, also made it to the finals. Sure, she used her womanly ways to get there, but I think she should be above those three..


Lion Style seemed to have some good moves, and Karate Bear was one shotted and quit, but I think I'm still going with the progressive style.


I mean, TOEI/ AT all seem to use that POV. Whoever comes next, is generally stronger...

[Kirby456]

Well that's one way of doing things. But Bruce Lee was shown to have caught Kuririn off guard. And he gave him his all, and still did nothing.

I'm a big believer in the progressive theory.

If A , B , C occur.

C > B > A

That the stronger fighter always goes after the weaker fighter...



Wolf also gave Yamcha somewhat of a problem, and Lang Chang, the girl finalist, also made it to the finals. Sure, she used her womanly ways to get there, but I think she should be above those three..


Lion Style seemed to have some good moves, and Karate Bear was one shotted and quit, but I think I'm still going with the progressive style.


I mean, TOEI/ AT all seem to use that POV. Whoever comes next, is generally stronger...

1.True defenitly but to do that to Krillin hed have to be pretty strong even if it did nothing...
2.Fighter 40 was almost even with Yamcha it wasint intill Yamcha brought out the Wolf fang fist, that he won. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ox5Ep5R8LE they cut out a lot of the fight though. If Yamcha uses wolf fang fist his special attack i doudt hes THAT much stronger then number 40...
3.Makes sense. I have. Fighter 40>Lion Fang Fist Guy>Bruce Lee>Fighter 97 ether way they'll all pwn Satan.

[Son Edo]

Random list
SSj Gokan
SSj Vegetto
Gokan - Base strength was told to be plenty against Gotenks-Boo which i think would be enough for Gohan-Boo aswell
Gohan-Boo
Gotenks-Boo
Super Gohan
South Kaioshin-Boo
SSj 3 Gotenks
Piccolo, Trunks, Goten-Boo
Piccolo-Boo
Super Boo
Kid Boo
SSj 3 Goku
SSj Gotenks pre
Dai Kaioshin-Boo

Unsure to place
Gogeta - Below Gohan-Boo in base but is suggested to be able to win against Super Boo
SSj Gotenks post - Above his pre SSj form
Gokuhan - Below Gotenks-Boo in base

[p123]

I go by , Base Gotenks Post > Ssj Gotenks Pre for the Gotenks powers...

[CatouttaHell]

I go by , Base Gotenks Post > Ssj Gotenks Pre for the Gotenks powers...

Until very recently I would've disagreed with that but that is definitely the most likely scenario as much as people hate it IMO.

Base Gotenks (Pre) > SSjin 2 Vegeta and Base Gotenks (Post) > SSjin Gotenks (Pre) is a freaking insane amount of power going by the official 50x boost.

No wonder Toriyama retconned Gohan's power out and never let Goten and Trunks fuse again when Goku was the hero again.

[p123]

Agreed, even if you don't use a 50x boost, Gotenks/Gohan implications dwarf our precious Goku...

Yea, it's crazy writing, but what can we do? It's the Buu Saga man...

[CatouttaHell]

I'm honestly starting to think the Boo arc might be the most haxed and bloated arc in the series.

The Freeza arc was pretty bad with Goku going from the thousands to over a hundred million but the Boo arc implications (without smaller SSjin boosts) blow even that out of the water.

Things get so out of control that Toriyama has to invent a second type of fusion because even a hypothetical "normal" fusion of the two strongest characters around somehow got surpassed.

Everything from Gotenks' first appearance to Super Vegetto is just a stream of crazy haxes. Even worse in the Anime because instead of toning everything down they just keep haxing even further.

[p123]

Yea, once fusion came out, it was all down hill from there including GT... Things just got too insane...

I think Pre Rosat Gotenks is good, he makes sense to me. I don't think that's a hax, but I think Post Rosat Gotenks is where it gets sickening.


Well this is what happens...

Pre Rosat Gotenks , ok I'm cool with it.

Post Z Gohan, oh wait, they just haxed Gohan up to be almost on a fusion level here, what the hell?

Post Rosat Gotenks, wow, what the heck? As if SSJ2/SSJ3 wasn't enough, you made Base > SSJ. That's insane.

Ultimate Gohan, above a SSj3 fusion? Jesus, Gohan's hidden power was insane!

Vegetto, ok, that makes sense...


You know?

[CatouttaHell]

Yeah Gotenks (Pre) was a freaking god but he was, after all, a fusion of two ridiculously strong prodigies and the next big thing so it was justifiable.

Gohan surpassing a SSjin 3 fusion that had surpassed all prior powers in the series (except for Evil Boo) in his base form was probably the most ridiculous.

I can accept that Gohan has a lot of hidden power but holy shit. SSjin 3 is supposed to be a Saiya-jin's hidden power drawn to its limits, so Gohan's hidden power is tens of thousands of times Goku's apparently.

And then you have all of the even more insane haxes in Toei World (the Pure Boo/Chaotic Gohan-Boo hax, the insanely haxed SSjin 4 boost, etc.)

Even the Freeza arc wasn't as filled with gargantuan, crazy boosts as the Boo arc and GT.

[Kaboom]

Well, that's what happens when you take all the comedic "implications" surrounding Gotenks' power too literally. Up until he got himself SSj3, the entire theme or 'point' of his character was that he didn't live up to his hype, and it was then funny when he failed or got beaten up. These "haxes" only become a factor, or only exist at all really, if you choose to treat something seriously that was never meant to be treated seriously.

[p123]

AT has never done a gag on a power statement though. Any examples you could provide us with?

[jjgp1112]

AT has never done a gag on a power statement though. Any examples you could provide us with?

It's the Buu saga, man. Toriyama sure as hell wasn't treating everything as serious business at that point. It's not like he was saying, "NO! I must have all of these powers shown clearly and seriously so that people on the internet can debate it 15 years from now!" as he drew the panels.

[CatouttaHell]

Several characters thought that Base Gotenks (Pre) could beat a guy that SSjin 2 Demon Prince Vegeta couldn't.

Then several characters claimed that Base Gotenks (Post) was above SSjin Gotenks (Pre.) None of this was ever contradicted.

In fact, Piccolo expected SSjin Gotenks to make huge gains in the RoSaT and still didn't think they'd win.

Base Gotenks (Post) > SSjin Gotenks (Piccolo's Expectations) > SSjin Gotenks (Pre) > Base Gotenks (Pre) > SSjin 2 Demon Prince Vegeta

Is what is heavily implied IMO.

It doesn't matter if it was part of a gag. Son Goku vs. Jackie Chun was a gag fight, does that mean that we can ignore it and just make up our own ideas for how they would've fared against each other?

[p123]

I could get down with the " It's the Buu Saga " treatment, if it had happened one time or another. Even in Dragonball, when the anime filler refers to the entire series, as a gag anime, on more than one occasions, we never see this mysterious fake power statement gag. It's just never happened...

[dbgtFO]

Well, that's what happens when you take all the comedic "implications" surrounding Gotenks' power too literally. Up until he got himself SSj3, the entire theme or 'point' of his character was that he didn't live up to his hype, and it was then funny when he failed or got beaten up.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that all the statements, which aren't contradicted by anything are wrong by default.
Gotenks could without a doubt be much stronger, than he was before, but the joke's on him because Super Buu's power is much greater than even that.
Simple as that.

These "haxes" only become a factor, or only exist at all really, if you choose to treat something seriously that was never meant to be treated seriously.

And how do you know, that Gotenks getting a huge power-up isn't supposed to be taken as fact?*

Obviously we aren't supposed to believe that he could match Super Buu in his regular form, because he couldn't, but who's to say that he didn't get incredibly strong? Should it really be that big a deal, that it would mean he surpassed his previous Super Saiyan form in base alone?

I find the most straight forward interpretation to be this:

Gotenks increased his power gigantically, enough to make Piccolo think he actually stood a chance as compared to 7(or 6 can't recall) days ago, making it all the more shocking that Super Buu is not budging at all, proving just how powerful he's become.

It couldn't get more simpler than that and at the same time it establishes that Super Buu is just that strong, by using the same formula Toriyama has used in a lot of other examples throughout DB.

*As a sidenote the Growing Up section's description of Super Saiyan Gotenks found in Daizenshuu 2 does state that he achieved a "super power-up(or something to that effect, I don't recall the exact wording)" while training in the Room of Spirit and Time, so Gotenks didn't only get much stronger because of his two new transformations, he also got much stronger in the previous two forms.

It doesn't matter if it was part of a gag. Son Goku vs. Jackie Chun was a gag fight, does that mean that we can ignore it and just make up our own ideas for how they would've fared against each other?

Basically this as well.

[CatouttaHell]

I find the most straight forward interpretation to be this:

Gotenks increased his power gigantically, enough to make Piccolo think he actually stood a chance as compared to 7(or 6 can't recall) days ago, making it all the more shocking that Super Buu is not budging at all, proving just how powerful he's become.

It couldn't get more simpler than that and at the same time it establishes that Super Buu is just that strong, by using the same formula Toriyama has used in a lot of other examples throughout DB.

Agreed, Toriyama always makes long chains like that to build up really powerful/important characters.

We already know that Base Gotenks (Pre) is above SSjin 2 Vegeta and that SSjin Gotenks (Pre) is >>> SSjin 3 Goku, who was already made to look like an unreachable power himself.

Then this new Boo shows up and Piccolo thinks that even with the massive gains he expects SSjin Gotenks to make he can't beat him.

It turns out that not only has Gotenks far exceeded Piccolo's huge expectations, but he's done it in his base form. And just as we're beginning to think that this new, insanely massive power may save the day, we see Boo tanking that same Gotenks without even budging.

It's the same kind of progressive chain of characters getting massive power-ups and surpassing each other non-stop just to make the main villain look that much better that the previous arc had.

Nowhere does Piccolo or anyone else say they sensed Gotenks wrong in either of the Base Gotenks instances.

The only contradictions are that Base Gotenks, as insanely powerful as he is, wasn't as powerful as either of the Boos he faced, when he faced them.

If something like that somehow contradicts Base Gotenks being as powerful as he is then Goku beating Freeza up contradicts him using 100% of his power.

*As a sidenote the Growing Up section's description of Super Saiyan Gotenks found in Daizenshuu 2 does state that he achieved a "super power-up(or something to that effect, I don't recall the exact wording)" while training in the Room of Spirit and Time, so Gotenks didn't only get much stronger because of his two new transformations, he also got much stronger in the previous two forms.

Vol. 41 / Chp. 490
Through a few days' training, Gotenks became super powered up.

[Rocketman]

It doesn't matter if it was part of a gag. Son Goku vs. Jackie Chun was a gag fight, does that mean that we can ignore it and just make up our own ideas for how they would've fared against each other?

Maybe not, but we can ignore Krillin and Roshi doing all those moves in like a second and a half.