The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Piccolo Daimao]

Well, obviously, your German version's wrong. #17 explicitly states that #18 probably wouldn't be able to take them all on.

[Michsi]

Well, obviously, your German version's wrong. #17 explicitly states that #18 probably wouldn't be able to take them all on.

I suppose I will have to take your word for it since I don't know what the original says.

Nevertheless, it proves nothing about Vegeta being equal to 18, nor that Vegeta was that much stonger than the others.

[p123]

If you ever checked out Movie 7 : Super Android 13, I feel they recreated the perfect differences between Trunks/Goku/Vegeta.

When they all power up to Super Saiyan, all three emit an aura, and they are showed in comparison. You can see a slight difference between Goku and Vegeta, and a smaller one for Trunks, but still in the same general world.

In the movie, Goku is actually slightly superior to Vegeta instead of how it is in the manga, but I think the size differences are represented well.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Well, obviously, your German version's wrong. #17 explicitly states that #18 probably wouldn't be able to take them all on.

I suppose I will have to take your word for it since I don't know what the original says.

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P1.1-3
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
No.17: “My my, some help has arrived. Even No.18 probably won’t be able to take them all on. No choice, shall I go? Or will you go, No.16?”

[Michsi]

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P1.1-3
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
No.17: “My my, some help has arrived. Even No.18 probably won’t be able to take them all on. No choice, shall I go? Or will you go, No.16?”

I said I believe you. You already posted this quote, I just wasn't sure if this was the original or a Viz line.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P1.1-3
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
No.17: “My my, some help has arrived. Even No.18 probably won’t be able to take them all on. No choice, shall I go? Or will you go, No.16?”

I said I believe you. You already posted this quote, I just wasn't sure if this was the original or a Viz line.

OK. Well, it's the original. All of these quotes are from Herms' Strength Checker here: http://www.daizex.fanboyreview.net/view ... th+Checker

[In Brightest Day]

Perhaps I should have posted this fight after your guys debate concluded. Now that it seemingly has, I'll repost it:

Mr. Satan vs. Panpoot.

Panpoot makes his long awaited return to the Tenkaichi Budokai and challenges (the H-word) for his World championship. Who wins & why?

Also, Android #17 was talking about Krillin.

[Nex Carnifex]

Base Goku Buu Saga vs Original Super Saiyan Goku

[In Brightest Day]

Base Goku Buu Saga vs Original Super Saiyan Goku

Theirs already a thread that basically has every single possible response you could expect from this fight.

http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... =8&t=18031

In fact, you made the thread.

[CatouttaHell]

Base Goku Buu Saga vs Original Super Saiyan Goku

Base Goku god-stomps. SSjin Goku (Namek) and 100% Freeza are nothing to #18 and Piccolo, who are both stated to be nothing to the other Base Saiya-jins (who are far below Goku.)

[Nineteen]

Base Goku (3,000,000) vs. Third-form Freeza, no Kaio-ken, no transformations.

Relevant quote, courtesy of the Strength Checker:

Chapter: 302 (DBZ 108), P7.3-4
Goku: “Damn it...What’s happening…?! Freeza’s ki got stronger again! Now even if my body’s fully healed, I might not be able to beat him…What should I do?...I give up…”

[Michsi]

who are both stated to be nothing to the other Base Saiya-jins

Where is that stated?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Base Goku Buu Saga vs Original Super Saiyan Goku

No contest, SSj Goku stomps. Base Goku, even at the end of the series, is nowhere near the level of his first Super Saiyan transformation.

Base Goku (3,000,000) vs. Third-form Freeza, no Kaio-ken, no transformations.

Well, this is easy. Base Goku fought evenly with true-form Freeza (before 50%) without Kaio-ken or SSj, so he would demolish third-form Freeza. That quote was when Goku was still in the middle of healing, and after he fully recovered, even he was surprised at how much stronger he had gotten.

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P12.2
Context: after he fully heals
Goku: “I’ve gotten strong! My power just keeps gushing forth…! Unbelievable…! And here I thought I was already about at my limits…This is enough to scare even me…”

[CatouttaHell]

Where is that stated?

Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”
Trunks (with Goten): “We’re fine too!”

Gohan, Vegeta, and the kids are fine fighting in base despite Piccolo and #18 being there. Vegeta even flat-out says it'll play out the same if they all are in base.

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.4
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.”

Piccolo is lumped into the same group as Kuririn when compared to the Base Saiya-jins. Both Babidi and Dabra consider them to be on different tiers.

[Michsi]

Gohan, Vegeta, and the kids are fine fighting in base despite Piccolo and #18 being there. Vegeta even flat-out says it'll play out the same if they all are in base.

Vegeta thinks he can beat Freeza in his final form.
Vegeta thinks he can beat 18.
Vegeta thinks he can beat Perfect Cell. Even Krillin knew better.
Vegeta thinks Buu's power isn't that impressive.
Vegeta thinks they can beat Buu without the Potara.
Vegeta thinks they can beat Buu without the Potara again.

I would seriously not put that much weight to what Vegeta thinks.

Piccolo joined the tournament not knowing they would limit themselves. Krillin and 18 were there for the money, so what was his excuse? To give something else to the saiyans to beat?

Piccolo is lumped into the same group as Kuririn when compared to the Base Saiya-jins. Both Babidi and Dabra consider them to be on different tiers.

Yes, they are different tiers, when transformed. I never though that Babidi and Dabura was refering to their base forms alone, because whatever criteria they were judging them by , it couldn't have been ki/power levels, since they were ALL surpressing them.
Also Goku tells Krillin and Krillin alone to go back stating this was too much for him.

[Kaboom]

I would have liked to see Piccolo fight one of Bobbidi's henchmen, come to think of it. Dabra's obviously too much for him, but I wonder if there would have bee someone in-between him and Yakon to put up a decent fight against the green man. Piccolo served mostly in a supporting role during Majin Boo, but he should have gotten one last good fight.

[CatouttaHell]

Vegeta thinks he can beat Freeza in his final form.

It seemed that was possible until Freeza suddenly raised his speed.

Vegeta thinks he can beat 18.

She was fooling around with Vegeta and making it seem like he's holding his own.

He can't sense her Ki so he doesn't realise until the end that the whole time he's one-shot material for her.

Vegeta thinks he can beat Perfect Cell. Even Krillin knew better.

Kuririn only knew because of his sudden haxed Ki sensing ability.

#16 didn't think Vegeta wouldn't be able to beat him and he was one of the most reliable Ki sensers around.

Vegeta thinks Buu's power isn't that impressive.

It wasn't. He needed two hits just to knock Dabra out for a while. Dabra is only on par with SSjin 2 Gohan who is implied to be 2x to 3x weaker than SSjin 2 Demon Prince Vegeta.

Vegeta kicked that same Majin Boo all over the place until he powered up again.

Vegeta thinks they can beat Buu without the Potara.

That's why he flat-out told Enma Daio-sama he wouldn't be able to live up to his hopes?

Vegeta thinks they can beat Buu without the Potara again.

Using a Genki-dama, calling Gotenks over, or having SSjin 3 Goku wipe him out with a Kamehameha are far better options than permanently fusing with someone he hates.

In all of these instances Vegeta is proven wrong. When is he proven wrong about being superior to Piccolo in base?

Piccolo joined the tournament not knowing they would limit themselves. Krillin and 18 were there for the money, so what was his excuse? To give something else to the saiyans to beat?

He wanted to have fun and to see his friends again after 7 years of probably not seeing any of them at all.

Gohan and Vegeta were both confident they would win, Piccolo never expressed any such sentiments.

Yes, they are different tiers, when transformed. I never though that Babidi and Dabura was refering to their base forms alone, because whatever criteria they were judging them by , it couldn't have been ki/power levels, since they were ALL surpressing them.
Also Goku tells Krillin and Krillin alone to go back stating this was too much for him.

Goku in all likelihood doesn't know how powerful any of Babidi's men are.

It's implied they don't emit Ki and Goku clearly judges Dabra based on only his movements. As weak as Piccolo is, Kuririn is still MUCH weaker so Goku automatically decides that it's time for him at least to evacuate.

For all we know Goku doesn't expect anybody here to be above Freeza so far.

Babidi and Dabra thought that the Saiya-jins would give Pui-Pui SOME trouble but that he'd win. Judging by that estimate I'd say that they sensed a fraction of their Ki when they flew there; the fraction that they amplify when they attack.

Base Saiya-jins > Pui-Pui > Estimated Base Saiya-jins > Estimated Piccolo

I just don't see how they'd be able to sense their transformed power. The only time something like that ever happened is one instance of Kuririn having sudden haxed Ki sensing abilities and he knew it was a transformation.

Dabra and Babidi on the other clue didn't have a clue that any of them could transform.

[Michsi]

It seemed that was possible until Freeza suddenly raised his speed.

He thinks he is a super saiyan for crying out loud. He doesn't even put up a decent fight.
Where did it ever seem possible? Everybody doubts his victory, but him.

She was fooling around with Vegeta and making it seem like he's holding his own.

He was never holding his own. She was toying around but he never does anything worthwile.
I got sick debating this for the last 2 pages.

Kuririn only knew because of his sudden haxed Ki sensing ability.

#16 didn't think Vegeta wouldn't be able to beat him and he was one of the most reliable Ki sensers around.

Oh, so it's hax now, because it's Krillin, is it?
Well then : Goku knew he was weaker than Cell when he met him the first time, Piccolo knew he was weaker than Cell when he met him the second time, Master Roshi knew Goku was weaker than Cell from a million miles away , from his TV.

It wasn't. He needed two hits just to knock Dabra out for a while. Dabra is only on par with SSjin 2 Gohan who is implied to be 2x to 3x weaker than SSjin 2 Demon Prince Vegeta.

Vegeta kicked that same Majin Boo all over the place until he powered up again.

And yet Goku knew from the very beginning. Vegeta realizes it himself a little later in their fight.
Still not a case of overestimating himself?

That's why he flat-out told Enma Daio-sama he wouldn't be able to live up to his hopes?

No, you are right. He went there to get annihilated again. It wasn't that he experienced Buu's powers first hand or that he had been given the safest way to destroy him.

Using a Genki-dama, calling Gotenks over, or having SSjin 3 Goku wipe him out with a Kamehameha are far better options than permanently fusing with someone he hates.

No, they weren't. Not when everything was at stake and they clearly overestimated what they could do against Buu.
Non of those ideas probably crossed his mind when he broke the Potara given that they were planning on finishing it with a one on one fight. The Genki Dama came into play when all was pretty much hopeless. Even Goku regrets breaking the Potara.


Vegeta is overconfident to the point of stupidity. He is not the only one who overstimated himself and the author made it obvious with him because nobody does it as badly and as often as him.

He wanted to have fun and to see his friends again after 7 years of probably not seeing any of them at all.

By having his ass handed to him in spectacular fashion? Piccolo? Because with the difference your implying, that is what should have happene?
I repeat! Piccolo?

Gohan and Vegeta were both confident they would win, Piccolo never expressed any such sentiments.

Gohan NEVER showed any such confidence. The ONLY one that does is Vegeta. And I have pointed out what exactly that means, when Vegeta CLAIMS victory. Piccolo aside, Goku was going to be there. The guy he said he was nothing compared to, after the Cell games. Who in one year achived more strength than Vegeta did in 2. And he still claims victory.

Piccolo never expressed any such sentiments because he knew he couldn't beat them, because he thought he was going against Super Saiyans!!!

Goku in all likelihood doesn't know how powerful any of Babidi's men are.

He knew exactly how strong Babidi's men are, at least the strongest of them. He could tell right of the bat, how strong Dabura was,same as Gohan and Vegeta.

And I trust Goku's judgement way more than Babidi's

[Rocketman]

He can't sense her Ki so he doesn't realise until the end that the whole time he's one-shot material for her.

Except he isn't. 17 says 18 can't handle everybody at once, which she easily could if their strongest fighter was a mere one-shot.

[jackjack]

That's if 17 actually knew anything about their strength.