The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Rocketman]

That's if 17 actually knew anything about their strength.

What reason is there to doubt 17 on how strong his sister is?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He knows how strong she is.

What he doesn't know is how strong the others are.

[In Brightest Day]

Taking a break from Episode 3 of "Durr da base saiyans are weak~! No dey r strongZ!!1~!" (Thanks a lot Nex Carnifex) - I will hesitantly repost this for the 2nd time:

Mr. Satan vs. Panpoot.

Panpoot makes his long awaited return to the Budokai and challenges (the H-word) for his World championship. Who wins & why?

[dbgtFO]

Kuririn only knew because of his sudden haxed Ki sensing ability.

#16 didn't think Vegeta wouldn't be able to beat him and he was one of the most reliable Ki sensers around.

Oh, so it's hax now, because it's Krillin, is it?
Well then : Goku knew he was weaker than Cell when he met him the first time, Piccolo knew he was weaker than Cell when he met him the second time, Master Roshi knew Goku was weaker than Cell from a million miles away , from his TV.

In all those examples it's because they all at the time had revealed ki higher than their opponents, so it's no wonder they can tell that someone is inferior to another.

Cell's initial power in his perfect form was a good deal weaker than Vegeta, this is stated, but Krillin, as the only one, was capable of sensing that Cell was hiding far greater power, the same way he was able to sense that Trunks hid far more power than Vegeta.

Besides Vegeta figured out himself that Cell wasn't giving it his all during their warm-up, but like any person in DB, he can only base his first thoughts on the amount of ki that's being put out and in this case it was less than him, so he was obviously confident.

When Cell revealed ki higher than Vegeta's, Vegeta had no such confidence.

And yet Goku knew from the very beginning. Vegeta realizes it himself a little later in their fight.
Still not a case of overestimating himself?

Everybody but Goku and Kaioshin thought that the power he was currently giving off was his Full Power. As stated before Vegeta, like anyone else, can only base his first thoughts on the size of the ki. In this case it was far less than his and Goku's until Majin Buu powered up. Goku felt something was off with Majin Buu's ki citing that it was abnormal, but it's not like he instantly figured out that it could be greater than theirs.

And when Vegeta went to fight Buu, he did imply that he probably wouldn't survive the fight. And right before the fight he remarked that he won't be going down alone, making Kaioshin realize, that Vegeta knew, he wouldn't be able to survive the fight.

Vegeta is overconfident to the point of stupidity. He is not the only one who overstimated himself and the author made it obvious with him because nobody does it as badly and as often as him.

In most cases it's only because whoever he's up against is hididng their real strength, so you can't really say that Vegeta overestimates himself, when he's correct based on the information he currently has.
When new information is revealed about the opponent(ie. they power up and/or increase speed) his confidence vanishes.

The ONLY one that does is Vegeta. And I have pointed out what exactly that means, when Vegeta CLAIMS victory. Piccolo aside, Goku was going to be there. The guy he said he was nothing compared to, after the Cell games. Who in one year achived more strength than Vegeta did in 2. And he still claims victory.

You'd have a point, if you provided an example of Vegeta claiming victory against a guy he knew he couldn't beat. In most cases where he did claim victory it was against an opponent, whose ki was less than his until he powered up.
And there's nothing wrong with Vegeta thinking he could surpass Goku in those 7 years.

The whole claim that Vegeta overestimates himself constantly, because he's stupid is one huge misconception taking entire scenes out of context and probably ignoring clear cut statements as well to try and prove a point.

Taking a break from Episode 3 of "Durr da base saiyans are weak~! No dey r strongZ!!1~!" (Thanks a lot Nex Carnifex) - I will hesitantly repost this for the 2nd time:

Mr. Satan vs. Panpoot.

Panpoot makes his long awaited return to the Budokai and challenges (the H-word) for his World championship. Who wins & why?

Yeah I guess it's about time to be slightly more on-topic.

Who wins

Panpoot wins.

& why?

I think he's far stronger than Mr. Satan.

[Michsi]

In all those examples it's because they all at the time had revealed ki higher than their opponents, so it's no wonder they can tell that someone is inferior to another

No they didn't, at least not much more than Vegeta did. Goku found out while exchanging a few words with him. Piccolo did by having Cell walk past him.
Vegeta was there when he transformed. Trunks, who thought was stronger than his father, knew better than to understimate Cell.
What was Vegeta's excuse?

Vegeta, for all that fighting experience he has accumulated, almost ALWAYS underestimates his opponent. This is made glaringly so, especially when the author almost always has someone on the sidelines see and realize it before he does.

See every other example I pointed out.

Everybody but Goku and Kaioshin thought that the power he was currently giving off was his Full Power.

It is still an example of bad overestimation, since we have someone to compare him too. As I said, there is almost always someone who sees it and it's almost NEVER Vegeta.

In most cases it's only because whoever he's up against is hididng their real strength, so you can't really say that Vegeta overestimates himself, when he's correct based on the information he currently has.

He overestimates himself, because as I said before, we always have someone who can tell and read the opponents beyond whatever their ki senses are telling him. The fact that even Vegeta has been shown to be able to do that sometimes means he isn't completely blind to this . Yet how come he can never tell this while he is fighting?

Because "he is the best, the strongest , the prince of all saiyans" <- this attitude should be enough evidence.

One doesn't even need to look at examples, knowing the character is enough.

Long story short, Vegeta is mostly a poor judge of opponents, when it's one that he is up against.

The whole claim that Vegeta overestimates himself constantly, because he's stupid is one huge misconception taking entire scenes out of context and probably ignoring clear cut statements as well to try and prove a point.

A misconception? I watched the show and read the manga. He does this time after time and never learns.

And there's nothing wrong with Vegeta thinking he could surpass Goku in those 7 years.

I completely disagree. Comon sense and experience should have been enough to show more caution than he does.

Gohan immediately senses that his father has gotten stronger. Vegeta needs to see Goku in action to tell this.

[dbgtFO]

In all those examples it's because they all at the time had revealed ki higher than their opponents, so it's no wonder they can tell that someone is inferior to another

No they didn't, at least not much more than Vegeta did. Goku found out while exchanging a few words with him.

So you are saying Goku first found out he couldn't beat Cell, when he had his conversation with him? He had already sensed that the previous Cell had powered up from absorbing the Earthlings and then later on sensed that Cell achieved a huge power-up(because he had just absorbed #17) yet you're trying to get the belief across, that Goku found out Cell was stronger than him only, when he confronted him?

Or what is it you're trying to say?

Because it's a fact that Cell had put out ki much greater than Goku, way before he was confronted by him, just as much as it is a fact, that Perfect Cell wasn't putting out ki close to Vegeta's, before Vegeta told him to get serious.

The scenarios simply aren't comparable, even a Vegeta hater should be able to acknowledge that.

Piccolo did by having Cell walk past him.

No. Piccolo sensed Cell power up to a level far beyond his, which is not comparable to Cell putting out ki less than Vegeta's.

Vegeta was there when he transformed.

Doesn't mean that Cell is outputting his max ki or anything.

Trunks, who thought was stronger than his father, knew better than to understimate Cell.

Of course, Trunks doesn't take risks, but I don't see the point, it's not like Trunks thought Vegeta couldn't win before Krillin told him just that.

What was Vegeta's excuse?

Cell's ki was less than Vegeta's, which is stated.

Vegeta, for all that fighting experience he has accumulated, almost ALWAYS underestimates his opponent. This is made glaringly so, especially when the author almost always has someone on the sidelines see and realize it before he does.

Yeah, because his opponents tend to not give off their full strength right off the bat.
When they do reveal their true power, Vegeta does in fact admit that he's inferior or whatever, but I'm willing to say that Vegeta did in fact underestimate his opponents, since he never considers them to potentially have power greater than his until he's shown, that they do.

See every other example I pointed out.

And the other examples were Freeza and #18, right?

In Freeza's case Vegeta could keep up with his speed until Freeza raised it, showing Vegeta, that he was out of his league. Doesn't mean that Vegeta couldn't win against, what he previously knew of Freeza.

In #18's case he couldn't sense her ki, so the only way to find out, if she was a challenge, was to fight her.

It is still an example of bad overestimation, since we have someone to compare him too. As I said, there is almost always someone who sees it and it's almost NEVER Vegeta.

It's not an overestimation, when he bases his statements on the information that is currently accessible.
It's an overestimation only because he doesn't consider the possibility of anyone hiding greater strength than his until shown otherwise.

In most cases it's only because whoever he's up against is hididng their real strength, so you can't really say that Vegeta overestimates himself, when he's correct based on the information he currently has.

He overestimates himself, because as I said before, we always have someone who can tell and read the opponents beyond whatever their ki senses are telling him. The fact that even Vegeta has been shown to be able to do that sometimes means he isn't completely blind to this . Yet how come he can never tell this while he is fighting?

I gave the example with Perfect Cell and their warm-up, which was him realizing while fighting. Vegeta did see that Cell wasn't giving it his all and requested to see, what he could do.

Because "he is the best, the strongest , the prince of all saiyans" <- this attitude should be enough evidence.

One doesn't even need to look at examples, knowing the character is enough.

Sure, but it doesn't mean he's wrong, when he isn't suggested to be.

Long story short, Vegeta is mostly a poor judge of opponents, when it's one that he is up against.

He's not, when they stop suppressing their power.

The whole claim that Vegeta overestimates himself constantly, because he's stupid is one huge misconception taking entire scenes out of context and probably ignoring clear cut statements as well to try and prove a point.

A misconception? I watched the show and read the manga. He does this time after time and never learns.

What I'm saying is that you'd be wrong to say that "Vegeta overestimates himself, because he's stupid."
How can a person who makes a logical assesement about something, based on currently available information, be considered stupid?

And there's nothing wrong with Vegeta thinking he could surpass Goku in those 7 years.

I completely disagree. Comon sense and experience should have been enough to show more caution than he does.

From the few examples we have, Vegeta(after he becomes obsessed with surpassing Goku) always catches up to and/or surpasses, what he knows of Goku, so the possibility of him having become stronger, because he thinks, he has trained harder, is valid.

Gohan immediately senses that his father has gotten stronger. Vegeta needs to see Goku in action to tell this.

Which scene are you talking about?

[Michsi]

So you are saying Goku first found out he couldn't beat Cell, when he had his conversation with him? He had already sensed that the previous Cell had powered up from absorbing the Earthlings and then later on sensed that Cell achieved a huge power-up(because he had just absorbed #17) yet you're trying to get the belief across, that Goku found out Cell was stronger than him only, when he confronted him?

Exactly, because it wasn't just about knowing how strong Cell was, but also about assessing his own power after the RoSaT training against what Cell had become.
He even says it ,when asked what he thinks his chances are against Cell : "I don't know. I haven't met him in his perfect state yet "
He doesn't claim victory before he meets his opponent.

And when he goes to check, Korin only confirms what he knew already.

No. Piccolo sensed Cell power up to a level far beyond his, which is not comparable to Cell putting out ki less than Vegeta's.

I said before, this wasn't about sensing ki. The ki Vegeta wasn't sensing, is the same ki Krillin isn't sensing. Yet Krillin still knows and Vegeta doesn't. Unless you also think this is Krillin-hax, there is no way to excuse Vegeta's self-confidence, when 3 characters, one who thought was stronger than him, can tell things have gone very bad.

Cell's ki was less than Vegeta's, which is stated.

And this is an excuse how? Vegeta should know first hand that a warrior could change the amount of ki he puts out. In fact, it was one of the things he supposedly learned and got smarter with during the namek arc.
And another thing. His confidence was there loooong before Cell became perfect. He even gave a helping hand.
Same thing as with Freeza. The difference was so great they can practically wipe the floor with him and his senses and insticts tell him nothing.

Dr. Gero managed to create something that greatly suprassed the mighty legenday SSJ once. Again, you'd think he'd learn.

Yeah, because his opponents tend to not give off their full strength right off the bat.

This debate started from Vegeta claiming victory before he gets to know his opponent. It would be pretty bad if he continued to overestimate himself, when death was staring him right in the face.
Given that he has been wrong so many times before, why should anybody believe him now? He ended up being wrong here too.
His arrogance and pride dictacte his actions. Him saying that he will win just like that, was just that.

In #18's case he couldn't sense her ki, so the only way to find out, if she was a challenge, was to fight her.

I keep pointing out the difference between what others do and what he does. Piccolo had dealt with No.20 as easily as Vegeta with No. 19. Did you see him jumping in head first against an opponent he knew nothing about?

He's not, when they stop suppressing their power.

Because if he did , it wouldn't be just overconfidence bordering on stupidity, it would be stupidity plain and simple.

What I'm saying is that you'd be wrong to say that "Vegeta overestimates himself, because he's stupid."

What I'm saying is that he overestimates himself because of his arrogance and pride.
The fact that he does this over and over again, that we see he never learns, doesn't really win him any points.

The saying "Fool me once, shame on you! Fool me twice, shame on me" comes to mind.

From the few examples we have, Vegeta(after he becomes obsessed with surpassing Goku) always catches up to and/or surpasses, what he knows of Goku, so the possibility of him having become stronger, because he thinks, he has trained harder, is valid.

To the point that he should claim victory right then and there? No, not with his and Goku's history.
That was Vegeta being Vegeta, just like in every other example.

Which scene are you talking about?

I can't look it up now. It was after their reunion at the TB, Gohan thinks "Looks like he has gotten stronger again "
I actually thought it was in 431, but it's not there , so I'm going to have to look later. I'm pretty sure I've seen it.

[rereboy]

I agree with Michsi. Vegeta isn't very good at judging opponents. Almost everyone else does a better job than him because they don't just feel the Ki level, they are cautious and they rarely are over confident.

And even in just feeling Ki, many of them actually feel that something is wrong or that the opponent is hiding something or holding back, using their instincts or just concentrating in feeling beneath the surface. Vegeta, even when he acknowledges a situation like this, stays way too overconfident that he will win.

[dbgtFO]

Exactly, because it wasn't just about knowing how strong Cell was, but also about assessing his own power after the RoSaT training against what Cell had become.
He even says it ,when asked what he thinks his chances are against Cell : "I don't know. I haven't met him in his perfect state yet "
He doesn't claim victory before he meets his opponent.

And when he goes to check, Karin only confirms what he knew already.

Oh you were talking about Perfect Cell? I thought you meant Goku, when he confronted Second Form Cell. In that case, yeah it does show, that Goku takes a more cautious approach and is able to figure out that Cell could be stronger than him, while Vegeta is not.

I said before, this wasn't about sensing ki. The ki Vegeta wasn't sensing, is the same ki Krillin isn't sensing. Yet Krillin still knows and Vegeta doesn't. Unless you also think this is Krillin-hax, there is no way to excuse Vegeta's self-confidence, when 3 characters, one who thought was stronger than him, can tell things have gone very bad.

Krillin is the only who one who knew Cell hid such great power.

And this is an excuse how? Vegeta should know first hand that a warrior could change the amount of ki he puts out. In fact, it was one of the things he supposedly learned and got smarter with during the namek arc.

I know, I even stated in my previous post that Vegeta's flaw was that he didn't count on the opponent possibily hiding greater power than his.

This debate started from Vegeta claiming victory before he gets to know his opponent. It would be pretty bad if he continued to overestimate himself, when death was staring him right in the face.
Given that he has been wrong so many times before, why should anybody believe him now?

The only thing he was proven to be wrong about was, where he stood compared to Goku.

He ended up being wrong here too.

Yes he was wrong about his power compared to Goku's, but that's the only thing we are told anyways. It doesn't mean, that he's automatically wrong about everything.

I can't look it up now. It was after their reunion at the TB, Gohan thinks "Looks like he has gotten stronger again "
I actually thought it was in 431, but it's not there , so I'm going to have to look later. I'm pretty sure I've seen it.

Never heard of it.

[Michsi]

is able to figure out that Cell could be stronger than him, while Vegeta is not

Not "could". Korin flat out tells him he can't win and Goku knew this.

Krillin is the only who one who knew Cell hid such great power.

No. 16 seemed to have realized it before him too.

Trunks knows how strong his father is. He seems a little too worried compared to eariler. Also Piccolo who was watching knew too.

As a matter of fact, examples of situations where one does not underestimate his opponent despite being stronger:
Piccolo faced Imperfect Cell when he was way stronger than him and never showed this blatant lack of caution or get that cocky. In fact quite the opposite. The moment he finds out who he is and what his goal is, he wants to finish him off immediately. He even regrets not finishing him of from the very beginning.

Same with Trunks.

Same with Goku.

This is what I judge characters by.

The only thing he was proven to be wrong about was, where he stood compared to Goku.

Yes, that is what is clear. I say that that isn't enough proof to consider Piccolo being weaker than a base Saiyan, since Vegeta claims a lot of things and is mostly wrong about them.

Yes he was wrong about his power compared to Goku's, but that's the only thing we are told anyways. It doesn't mean, that he's automatically wrong about everything.

I never said he is wrong about everything. Just more than others and mostly when it's about assessing what he can do.

[Piccolo Daimao]

He knows how strong she is.

What he doesn't know is how strong the others are.

The Androids have the data of all the Z-Warriors. Only Vegeta was proven to be stronger than what Dr. Gero's data said.

Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P6.3-4
Context: after Vegeta fights No.18 for awhile
No.17: “I’m surprised…His strength greatly differs from what Doctor Gero’s data said, doesn’t it? Vegeta, huh?...He’s an incredible guy.”

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The Androids have the data of all the Z-Warriors. Only Vegeta was proven to be stronger than what Dr. Gero's data said.

Gero was already baffled by his miscalculation in Piccolo's power, and he actually had a power sensor. Gero provided the Androids with data when he was monitoring everyone, and since he stated that they stopped monitoring Goku when he left for namek, none of their data is even up to date. All they can do is base everything on Gero's original calculations, which were shown to be way off and had nothing on Trunks. I think #17 was simply trying to play it safe.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The Androids have the data of all the Z-Warriors. Only Vegeta was proven to be stronger than what Dr. Gero's data said.

Gero was already baffled by his miscalculation in Piccolo's power, and he actually had a power sensor. Gero provided the Androids with data when he was monitoring everyone, and since he stated that they stopped monitoring Goku when he left for namek, none of their data is even up to date. All they can do is base everything on Gero's original calculations, which were shown to be way off and had nothing on Trunks. I think #17 was simply trying to play it safe.

Yes, #17 can only base on Gero's calculations, but he doesn't know at the moment that everyone's much stronger than what Gero predicted. Only Vegeta was proven to be stronger, and I don't think #17 would jump to conclusions that because Vegeta, Son Goku's strongest enemy as far as they know, therefore everyone else must be. He'd be basing off Gero's calculations. And #17 knows that Gero made he and #18 strong enough to beat them, and them some. In fact, he made them too strong. So he has no reason to "play it safe"; Vegeta would be the deciding factor if he teamed up with the other Z-Warriors to fight #18.

[Kaboom]

At the very least, they know Vegeta has become strong enough to hold his own against #18 reasonably well, and that collectively all the heroes were powerful enough to take out #19 and severely injure Gero.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yes, #17 can only base on Gero's calculations, but he doesn't know at the moment that everyone's much stronger than what Gero predicted. Only Vegeta was proven to be stronger, and I don't think #17 would jump to conclusions that because Vegeta, Son Goku's strongest enemy as far as they know, therefore everyone else must be. He'd be basing off Gero's calculations. And #17 knows that Gero made he and #18 strong enough to beat them, and them some. In fact, he made them too strong. So he has no reason to "play it safe"; Vegeta would be the deciding factor if he teamed up with the other Z-Warriors to fight #18.

Well, of course. What I'm trying to say is that #17's quote is not set in stone by any means. He thinks #18 probably can't take them on alone, and even considers an unknown option (#16) when debating on going into the battle or not. So instead of taking any chances with this, he steps in.

As for Vegeta being the deciding factor--I agree, since he's the only one they'd know of power-wise (I suppose Trunks's Super Saiyan blast probably gave them an understanding of how weak he was) at that point. But from what is actually shown, there's no reason to believe a team-up would even matter, since Vegeta couldn't do any damage to #18, even when going all out--and the fact that she can make him crumble in a single attack. Throw a bunch of weaklings (Vegeta even agrees that their help would be useless against #18) into the fray, and it wouldn't matter much. It would just be Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo taking on #18, who's in a different class in comparison.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yes, #17 can only base on Gero's calculations, but he doesn't know at the moment that everyone's much stronger than what Gero predicted. Only Vegeta was proven to be stronger, and I don't think #17 would jump to conclusions that because Vegeta, Son Goku's strongest enemy as far as they know, therefore everyone else must be. He'd be basing off Gero's calculations. And #17 knows that Gero made he and #18 strong enough to beat them, and them some. In fact, he made them too strong. So he has no reason to "play it safe"; Vegeta would be the deciding factor if he teamed up with the other Z-Warriors to fight #18.

Well, of course. What I'm trying to say is that #17's quote is not set in stone by any means. He thinks #18 probably can't take them on alone, and even considers an unknown option (#16) when debating on going into the battle or not. So instead of taking any chances with this, he steps in.

As for Vegeta being the deciding factor--I agree, since he's the only one they'd know of power-wise (I suppose Trunks's Super Saiyan blast probably gave them an understanding of how weak he was) at that point. But from what is actually shown, there's no reason to believe a team-up would even matter, since Vegeta couldn't do any damage to #18, even when going all out--and the fact that she can make him crumble in a single attack. Throw a bunch of weaklings (Vegeta even agrees that their help would be useless against #18) into the fray, and it wouldn't matter much. It would just be Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo taking on #18, who's in a different class in comparison.

Yeah, that's fair enough.

At the very least, they know Vegeta has become strong enough to hold his own against #18 reasonably well, and that collectively all the heroes were powerful enough to take out #19 and severely injure Gero.

True, although they don't know how strong #19 or Gero is, other than that they're far weaker than them because they're old energy-absorption models.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

So what's your take on the matter, Daimao? Do you believe the Z-warriors would've beaten her if they attacked her together?

[CatouttaHell]

He was never holding his own. She was toying around but he never does anything worthwile.
I got sick debating this for the last 2 pages.

He was clearly holding his own in the beginning. He never noticed her tanking his punch and thus had no reason to assume he was inferior.

Oh, so it's hax now, because it's Krillin, is it?
Well then : Goku knew he was weaker than Cell when he met him the first time, Piccolo knew he was weaker than Cell when he met him the second time, Master Roshi knew Goku was weaker than Cell from a million miles away , from his TV.

#16 flat-out stated that Initial Perfect Cell was below Vegeta. Goku sensed power from Cell that neither Vegeta, Trunks, Kuririn, or #16 could sense when he talked to him, so I guess they are all now unreliable sources?

And yet Goku knew from the very beginning. Vegeta realizes it himself a little later in their fight.
Still not a case of overestimating himself?

Until he powered up again he was CLEARLY below Vegeta. If it wasn't for his insane regeneration he would've been killed before he could power up again.

And that's not even mentioning the fact that he thought he wouldn't survive the fight. So I don't have a clue how this is supposed to be a case of him overestimating himself.

Vegeta is overconfident to the point of stupidity. He is not the only one who overstimated himself and the author made it obvious with him because nobody does it as badly and as often as him.

It doesn't matter how many times Vegeta is incorrect because each time he is wrong HE IS PROVEN WRONG.

Nobody has ever proven Vegeta and Gohan wrong about being able to beat Piccolo in their base forms. Uncontradicted statements are fact.

By having his ass handed to him in spectacular fashion? Piccolo? Because with the difference your implying, that is what should have happene?
I repeat! Piccolo?

Then I suppose by your logic Kuririn and #18 also are above the Base Saiya-jins?

Chaozu knew he was weak as shit compared to all of his friends and yet he still came to the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai.

Gohan NEVER showed any such confidence. The ONLY one that does is Vegeta. And I have pointed out what exactly that means, when Vegeta CLAIMS victory. Piccolo aside, Goku was going to be there. The guy he said he was nothing compared to, after the Cell games. Who in one year achived more strength than Vegeta did in 2. And he still claims victory.

Piccolo never expressed any such sentiments because he knew he couldn't beat them, because he thought he was going against Super Saiyans!!!

Gohan himself he wanted to win the Tenkaichi Budoukai/the prize money. That same Gohan invited Piccolo and made the base deal.

Vegeta was confident because he improved massively and had good reason to think he could have caught up with Goku.

He knew exactly how strong Babidi's men are, at least the strongest of them. He could tell right of the bat, how strong Dabura was,same as Gohan and Vegeta.

And I trust Goku's judgement way more than Babidi's

And that's why he said later on that Dabra was way stronger than he thought?

Except he isn't. 17 says 18 can't handle everybody at once, which she easily could if their strongest fighter was a mere one-shot.

#17 could only guess how strong everyone else was. Nothing suggests she couldn't one-shot all of them.

#18 completely tanked Vegeta's punch while smiling and took out Trunks, who rivals Goku and Vegeta, like he was nothing.

Also Weighted Kamiccolo is stated to rival #17, who rivals #18. That same Weighted Kamiccolo kicked the crap out of Initial Imperfect Cell and implied he could tank his Kamehameha.

Considering it was stated that even that Cell was far above Goku and Vegeta, the overall gap between them all is HUGE.

[Michsi]

He was clearly holding his own in the beginning. He never noticed her tanking his punch and thus had no reason to assume he was inferior.

How can he not notice? He was fighting her!

You yourself said :
"#18 completely tanked a punch from Vegeta. That's a huge gap right there."

I get back to my example to how Piccolo acts and how Vegeta acts, when BOTH previously had no problems whatsoever with 19. and 20.

#16 flat-out stated that Initial Perfect Cell was below Vegeta. Goku sensed power from Cell that neither Vegeta, Trunks, Kuririn, or #16 could sense when he talked to him, so I guess they are all now unreliable sources?

As for Vegeta, yes, given what we are shown in the story, I would consider him an unreliable source, mostly when it's about him claiming victory.

Except that Kuririn and 16 did notice.
16 notices something different (probably not in favor of Vegeta) the second after he states that.
Kuririn sensed that Cell had huge reserves. What he didn't know was what those reserves meant to Goku after the Rosat training.

16, Krillin and Goku know better than to underestimate Cell, Vegeta was the one that did and he was about to fight him.

Until he powered up again he was CLEARLY below Vegeta. If it wasn't for his insane regeneration he would've been killed before he could power up again.

Goku flat out tells him, he is underestimating Buu. That his power isn't normal. If anything, Goku was matching him blow for blow and HE says that Buu is dangerous. And Vegeta dismisses it.

How am I supposed read this differently?

And that's not even mentioning the fact that he thought he wouldn't survive the fight. So I don't have a clue how this is supposed to be a case of him overestimating himself.

That was after he realizes he had underestimated Buu. Goku had been right, he had been wrong. Plain and simple.

It doesn't matter how many times Vegeta is incorrect because each time he is wrong HE IS PROVEN WRONG.
Nobody has ever proven Vegeta and Gohan wrong about being able to beat Piccolo in their base forms. Uncontradicted statements are fact.

He is proven wrong. Even here. And it does matter because it establishes a particular character trait, that shows up again and again. The fact that he can so plainly and self confidently assume that he is the strongest out of all despite knowing Goku was going to be there shows just how much his assumptions can be seen as something reliable.

Fine, Piccolo AND Goku aside. Gohan, even after neglecting his training, isn't someone to underestimate either.
Goku said that no one can defeat him if he gets angry enough. Granted, there was no reason to assume something would piss him off so severly in that tournament, but he is still nothing to laugh about.

Then I suppose by your logic Kuririn and #18 also are above the Base Saiya-jins?

Chaozu knew he was weak as shit compared to all of his friends and yet he still came to the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai.

I already said in a few posts back. They were there for the MONEY! Krillin didn't even seem to want to enter and 18 had absolutely no interest until the prize money was brought up. One of them was to be in first 5. That was all that they were aiming for.
Again, what did Piccolo want then? To have fun getting his ass kicked?

As for Chaozu: he trained for 3 years long years, for the sole purpose of fighting in the TB, and then he was supposed to not come?

Gohan himself he wanted to win the Tenkaichi Budoukai/the prize money. That same Gohan invited Piccolo and made the base deal.
Vegeta was confident because he improved massively and had good reason to think he could have caught up with Goku.

Gohan invited Piccolo to the tournament and didn't say: "by the way, we are not going to transform to SSJ," and have Piccolo agree only after that. He used the prize money excuse to get Chichi to agree. And the idea of them not using SSJ might aswell have crossed his mind while they were on their way there, seeing as how he trained as a SSJ.

Vegeta can think what he wants to think. I've spent the last few posts showing exactly what that means.

And that's why he said later on that Dabra was way stronger than he thought?

Babidi also misjudged the saiyans. The fact that an opponent proves to be more than initially thought is a common trope in DB and it works both ways. But he initially sensed Dabra to be around Cells power. Or are base Saiyans now stronger than Cell too?

[dbgtFO]

is able to figure out that Cell could be stronger than him, while Vegeta is not

Not "could". Karin flat out tells him he can't win and Goku knew this.

Karin doesn't flat out state it. He tells Goku that it's only speculation, but he thinks Cell is slightly stronger than Goku.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P11.1-7
Goku: “But how am I compared to Cell?!”
Karin: “Hmm… You always ask the most difficult questions… As I said, this is only speculation…but honestly…I’m afraid Cell is still a bit stronger.”
Yajirobe: “Th-this Cell guy must be a terrible bastard!...”
Goku: “I thought so. I guessed right! Thanks, Master Karin!”

Not that it matters, I already agreed with Goku taking another more thoughtfull approach to Cell's power than Vegeta.

No. 16 seemed to have realized it before him too.

Where? All he says is that Cell got stronger, but Vegeta is even stronger, which he's baffled by. Immediately after that Vegeta says that Cell isn't being serious and Cell agrees saying he needed the warm-up, which surprises #16.

Trunks knows how strong his father is. He seems a little too worried compared to eariler. Also Piccolo who was watching knew too.

Trunks and Piccolo are not about to take such huge risks obviously, but there's no indication that they figured out Cell hid greater power, like what Krillin did.

Yes, that is what is clear. I say that that isn't enough proof to consider Piccolo being weaker than a base Saiyan, since Vegeta claims a lot of things and is mostly wrong about them.

Which doesn't have to mean he's wrong in this case just because some don't agree with the implications it brings.

Vegeta is only wrong, when he hasn't seen the opponents full power. If Vegeta sensed Piccolo's full power at the Cell Games, there's no reason to think he's wrong, but that's why I have my own reservations about it, because Vegeta was busy with his Cell Junior, so it would be hard to concentrate on anything else.