Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[rereboy]

Its fairly ambigous in the manga/anime just what low class and elite are and just what makes a Saiyan low class or elite.

Enough to have different interpretations/opinions on the matter.

[Piccolo Daimao]

But Vegeta's the prince of the Saiyans, has trained his tail (as has Nappa, an elite Saiyan) and probably much more battle-intuitive than the majority of the Saiyans. I don't see low-class Saiyans as being that insightful.

Er...

*Salagir post*

OK, fair enough.

[TonyTheTiger]

Why Vegeta ALWAYS refered Goku as low-class, even when he thought that Goku was Super Saiyan he was calling him low-class.

Vegeta is like that, though. Everybody is low class compared to Vegeta.

I generally view the Saiyans as alien analogues to cultures we've had right here on Earth. The Spartans and Romans were brutal and often amoral people. Their culture was built that way. But they were still human, fully capable of the same human thought and emotions we're capable of today. So I figure the Saiyans, while their values are royally screwed up, wouldn't necessarily be out of character should they think something more complex than "ooga booga, big monkey kill planet!" or have the slightest bit of compassion and camaraderie toward each other and their families.

The most we get to learn about how Saiyans think is from Vegeta. And that's a problem because Vegeta is just Vegeta. Not exactly a great example of the Saiyan people as a whole.

[Fox666]

If I am not wrong, the guidebooks points out that being a saiyan of the elite of low-class is based on lineage, not strength. Which makes sense, since Vegeta never stopped calling Goku a low-class.

Salagir seems to commit a mistake: Bardock come close to death and survived, meaning his power increased significantly, however it was mentioned to be "close to 10,000" meaning it was not yet (much less higher than) 10,000.

Other than that, Vegeta claimed he surpassed the king while he was still a kid, so it's very unlikely we have so many saiyans (perhaps not even the king) with more than 10,000.

[jjgp1112]

Why Vegeta ALWAYS refered Goku as low-class, even when he thought that Goku was Super Saiyan he was calling him low-class.

Vegeta is like that, though. Everybody is low class compared to Vegeta.

I generally view the Saiyans as alien analogues to cultures we've had right here on Earth. The Spartans and Romans were brutal and often amoral people. Their culture was built that way. But they were still human, fully capable of the same human thought and emotions we're capable of today. So I figure the Saiyans, while their values are royally screwed up, wouldn't necessarily be out of character should they think something more complex than "ooga booga, big monkey kill planet!" or have the slightest bit of compassion and camaraderie toward each other and their families.

The most we get to learn about how Saiyans think is from Vegeta. And that's a problem because Vegeta is just Vegeta. Not exactly a great example of the Saiyan people as a whole.

Yeah, considering how often Nappa is shocked by how little regard Vegeta has for his comrades, I'd say Vegeta is just fucking nuts and not a reflection of every Saiyan.

[kaialone]

Okay, I found the Broly reference funny *hides*

Also Hanasia´s eyes really bother me :/

Aside from that I got nothing to say, but I kinda hope the story would get a little more interesting

[Piccolo Daimao]

Its fairly ambigous in the manga/anime just what low class and elite are and just what makes a Saiyan low class or elite.

Enough to have different interpretations/opinions on the matter.

Vegeta explains it pretty clearly before his first fight with Goku.

Why Vegeta ALWAYS refered Goku as low-class, even when he thought that Goku was Super Saiyan he was calling him low-class.

Vegeta is like that, though. Everybody is low class compared to Vegeta.

But Vegeta only ever refers to Goku specifically as being low-class. The rest he just calls weaklings or some ever variant without alluding to class. And there's a clear class system in the Saiyans.

[rereboy]

Vegeta explains it pretty clearly before his first fight with Goku.

Er... No. He only talks about a bunch of stuff of how the low class can't hope to defeat the elite, etc (which is pretty silly since Goku had just easily defeated Nappa, an elite).

Vegeta doesn't explain what exactly makes a Saiyan elite (the family they are from? The potential registered as a baby? Just the power level? What is the criteria exactly?), and of course he doesn't explain if a low class Saiyan could actually be considered a elite by most Saiyans after becoming strong, or if its just Vegeta who doesn't consider someone who came from the low class a elite no matter what (just like the traditional rich often looked down on the new rich for example a while back in our history).

So... Its ambigous? Yeah, I really think so. Its not really explained at all.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Vegeta explains it pretty clearly before his first fight with Goku.

Er... No. He only talks about a bunch of stuff of how the low class can't hope to defeat the elite, etc.

He doesn't explain what exactly makes a Saiyan elite (the family they are from? The potential registered as a baby? Just the power level? What is the criteria exactly?), and of course he doesn't explain if a low class Saiyan could actually be considered a elite by most Saiyans after becoming strong, or if its just Vegeta who doesn't consider someone who came from the low class a elite no matter what (just like the traditional rich often looked down on the new rich for example a while back in our history).

I've got Viz's DBZ Volume 3 here and, while I don't know if it's the same in the original, Vegeta explains the class system pretty well here.

Chapter: 34, P2.2
Vegeta: We Saiyan are tested for combat aptitude soon after we're born...The pitiful babes with low battle-numbers are shipped off to a planet with no serious opponents...just like you were.

Which basically means that Saiyans' battle powers are recorded soon after their birth, and those with low battle powers (like the low-class Saiyan Goku) are sent off to weak planets. Judging from this, those with high battle powers would be sent off to stronger planets.

Vegeta still calls Goku a low-class Saiyan, as does Nappa (who wanted to revive Raditz), even after Goku's knocked him around like a pinball, and Bardock and his team, despite being strong enough for Freeza to call out their execution before he even has Planet Vegeta destroyed, apparently never become elites - even Bardock, the strongest of the crow who, after his Zenkai on Kanassa, is close to 10,000. It doesn't look like they are ever "promoted", so to speak, because their battle power eventually rises to typical elite status. What we're given is that they're measured soon after birth, and that's when they're given their rank.

To give a real-life comparison, it's like how, no matter how much money you have, it doesn't automatically mean you'll become the President or the Queen. In the Forbes list of the wealthiest billionaries for 2011, Carlos Slim is #1, ahead of even Bill Gates. However, it doesn't mean he has as much power as Barack Obama or Queen Elizabeth II.

[rereboy]

Yeah, but that still doesn't tell us if all Saiyans who weren't sent away were considered elites or not, and it also doesn't tell us if all low class Saiyans were to be sent away, or just some.

It could be that they only sent out the really weak ones.

So, two questions remain:

- Just what makes a Saiyan elite?

- Could a low class Saiyan eventually be considered elite by most Saiyans if he became strong, and Vegeta is just too proud of always being part of the elite and actually being the best of the elite to let go of the fact that Goku was a low class, or would that be impossible?

Its ambiguous.

Vegeta is not a very good example, since like I said, he basically tells Goku that he can't beat an elite (and he had just beaten Nappa), and in the Bardock movie, if I remember correctly, its Freeza's men who say that Bardock's team was supposed to be a low class team (and obviously they were, at one point, really low class, so there is the possibly that their information is just outdated). I'm not even sure there is any information in the movie regarding what the other Saiyans considered Bardock to be.

I'm not saying that what you are saying is not the case... I'm just saying that there is more than enough room for different interpretations.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, but that still doesn't tell us if all Saiyans who weren't sent away were considered elites or not, and it also doesn't tell us if all low class Saiyans were to be sent away, or just some.

It could be that they only sent out the really weak ones.

So, two questions remain:

- Just what makes a Saiyan elite?

- Could a low class Saiyan eventually be considered elite by most Saiyans if he became strong, and Vegeta is just too proud of always being part of the elite and actually being the best of the elite to let go of the fact that Goku was a low class, or would that be impossible?

Its ambiguous.

Well, there's a little bit of ambiguity in there, but I don't think it's as ambiguous as you think, and I explained why in my post. Nappa still called Goku a "low-class punk" after he'd been read at 5,000, then 8,000, and had subsequently beaten him up (which would confirm the aforementioned battle power numbers that Nappa initially dismissed as malfunctions). And Bardock, who's nearly 10,000 after his Zenkai, and his team, who were strong enough for Freeza to have them killed before the destruction of Vegeta, apparently never rise in rank.

And I thought it was evident what makes a Saiyan elite. Being recorded with a high battle power at birth, as opposed to being recorded with a low battle power at birth, which makes a low-class Saiyan who gets shipped off to a planet with weak inhabitants.

And there's nothing that really contradicts or opposes Vegeta's view that he still sees Goku as a low-class Saiyan, especially when Nappa said the same thing after he'd been knocked around by him. Even if it is Vegeta, a jerk even by Saiyan standards, I don't see that much of a problem.

[rereboy]

I edited my post to your reply.

I will just add that, if its just Vegeta's fixation that makes him believe that "once a low class, always a low class", then that's fine. He obviously has some issues regarding that. He almost had a seizure and blew the planet he was on because Goku, a low class, managed to hurt him.

But if all Saiyans are like that, its pretty stupid. Sure, probably a low class who actually managed to become strong will be looked down upon by some elites. But the general population? If they are deemed low class simply because of their power levels, and those change to rival the powers of some elites later on, why still consider them low class?
Since they have the same power level as the elites they can do the same work, especially if they can do it better than some elites or have a higher power level than some elites. Sure, some prejudice is to be expected, but it doesn't really make sense for them to be considered low class by all.

To give an example... A fews years ago people who became rich were considered to be "new money" and were looked down upon by the more traditionally rich. There might even be some of them who refused to consider them their equal and probably called "poor" or something like that. But they were still rich and they were recognized by the general public and even by most of the rich people as rich and, as such, their equal, even if with some prejudice. That is the scenario that makes most sense for the Saiyan society in my opinion.

But, like I said, its not really clear at all in the original work. The manga doesn't clarify anything really. And the movie is not that clear regarding Bardock's crew social Saiyan status. We don't have any Saiyan telling them they are low class or elite in the movie that I can remember... Just that quote by Freeza's men.

Anyway... Room for different interpretations.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I edited my post to your reply.

I will just add that, if its just Vegeta's fixation that makes him believe that "once a low class, always a low class", then that's fine. He obviously has some issues regarding that. He almost had a seizure and blew the planet he was on because Goku, a low class, managed to hurt him.

But if all Saiyans are like that, its pretty stupid. Sure, probably a low class who actually managed to become strong will be looked down upon by some elites. But the general population? If they are deemed low class simply because of their power levels, and those change to rival the powers of some elites later on, why still consider them low class?
Since they have the same power level as the elites they can do the same work, especially if they can do it better than some elites or have a higher power level than some elites. Sure, some prejudice is to be expected, but it doesn't really make sense for them to be considered low class by all.

To give an example... A fews years ago people who became rich were considered to be "new money" and were looked down upon by the more traditionally rich. There might even be some of them who refused to consider them their equal and probably called "poor" or something like that. But they were still rich and they were recognized by the general public and even by most of the rich people as rich and, as such, their equal, even if with some prejudice. That is the scenario that makes most sense for the Saiyan society in my opinion.

But, like I said, its not really clear at all in the original work. The manga doesn't clarify anything really. And the movie is not that clear regarding Bardock's crew social Saiyan status. We don't have any Saiyan telling them they are low class or elite in the movie that I can remember... Just that quote by Freeza's men.

Anyway... Room for different interpretations.

Stupid or not, that's how it is. If Bardock was 10,000 and was still considered a low-class. In movie 3, Tullece said that he is a low-class, despite being over 300,000. Also, the Tenkaichi video-games have shown us that the elite Saiyans(Vegeta, Nappa, King Vegeta) can control their Oozaru form, but low-class Saiyans (Goku, Gohan, Tullece, Bardock, Sellypa) can't.

[rereboy]

You are going way off canon now. I aknowlege Bardock's movie since its semi-canon because Toriyama wanted to include at least part of it in the manga and also because this discussion was born out of DBM's remake of that movie, but those elements are way off canon.

Anyway, I will once again say that I'm not telling you that you are wrong in your opinion. I'm simply saying that its not that clear in the original work as you might think, and there is enough room for different interpretations. Criticizing DBM's approach like there isn't enough room for another interpretation and only one answer is correct and possible in this matter is the one only thing I find wrong in this situation.

[Rawring Ninja]

Hanasia's eyes didn't bother me in the first panel of this page, but I didn't like the way they looked in all the other panels... And I don't like that skirt, either.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You are going way off canon now. I aknowlege Bardock's movie since its semi-canon because Toriyama wanted to include at least part of it in the manga and also because this discussion was born out of DBM's remake of that movie, but those elements are way off canon.

The only reason movie 3 is non-canon is because it doesn't fit in the series. However, it can still be considered as a fact along with the video-games, as they are all official materials.

[rereboy]

Even if they didn't clash with the manga's continuity, the simple fact that they weren't made by the author or stated to be part of the continuity by the author is enough to be reasonable to not consider them canon.

But, of course, we can consider them canon if we want to.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Even if they didn't clash with the manga's continuity, the simple fact that they weren't made by the author or stated to be part of the continuity by the author is enough to be reasonable to not consider them canon.

But, of course, we can consider them canon if we want to.

We could just consider their facts as canon. And again, there is no official canon in Dragon Ball, so we just collect the informations from the manga/anime/movies/databooks/video-games, and come to a conclusion.

[rereboy]

We can do that, but we can also just take the manga as the only canon and we wouldn't be wrong. Its just personal preferences.

[Great Saiyaman I]

Well, I think in the context of this argument, it makes sense to include the movies, as DBM includes all of them.