The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Michsi]

Where? All he says is that Cell got stronger, but Vegeta is even stronger, which he's baffled by. Immediately after that Vegeta says that Cell isn't being serious and Cell agrees saying he needed the warm-up, which surprises #16.

I read that part again now and there was something I missed. When 18 states that Vegeta had to be stronger, probably because of his scouter or whatever, Vegeta himself realized Cell wasn't even trying. After he matched blow for blow and Vegeta already started to lose confindence.
So here we have Vegeta being perfectly able to asses the situation without having to resort to ki sensing. How come he wasn't able to sens this earlier, when Krillin and Goku can?

Trunks and Piccolo are not about to take such huge risks obviously, but there's no indication that they figured out Cell hid greater power, like what Krillin did.

True, but this falls perfectly within the definition "of not overestimating" the opponent, given that both were hell bent on not allowing Cell to become stronger.

Honestly now, it all falls back to character and personality.

Which doesn't have to mean he's wrong in this case just because some don't agree with the implications it brings.
Vegeta is only wrong, when he hasn't seen the opponents full power. If Vegeta sensed Piccolo's full power at the Cell Games, there's no reason to think he's wrong, but that's why I have my own reservations about it, because Vegeta was busy with his Cell Junior, so it would be hard to concentrate on anything else.

Consequential evidence against another set of consequetial evidence. Of course I'm not denying my bias here, nor would I continue to debate this if I were given better proof than Vegeta and Babidi said this then it must be so.
I have no idea how Toriyama would have done things, had he written the story differently and had Vegeta and Piccolo fight in the tournament, but I can't imagine him not being able to take on a base Saiyan when he fought and surpassed the SSJ before.

[dbgtFO]

I read that part again now and there was something I missed. When 18 states that Vegeta had to be stronger, probably because of his scouter or whatever, Vegeta himself realized Cell wasn't even trying. After he matched blow for blow and Vegeta already started to lose confindence.
So here we have Vegeta being perfectly able to asses the situation without having to resort to ki sensing. How come he wasn't able to sens this earlier, when Krillin and Goku can?

First of all you mean #16 not #18.
Minor errors aside, Vegeta being able to see that Cell wasn't serious is probably more about intuition or observing Cell's demeanor during their brief fight.

Consequential evidence against another set of consequetial evidence. Of course I'm not denying my bias here, nor would I continue to debate this if I were given better proof than Vegeta and Babidi said this then it must be so.

The Babidi/Dabra one IMO only confirms Piccolo <<< Saiyans. Not anything as specific as Piccolo <<< Base Saiyans.

[Michsi]

First of all you mean #16 not #18.
Minor errors aside, Vegeta being able to see that Cell wasn't serious is probably more about intuition or observing Cell's demeanor during their brief fight.

Yep, sorry, I obviously meant Nr.16.

And yes, the point I have been trying so hard to get across is that it doesn't all fall back to ki sensing and Vegeta is able to do that too, so I see no excuse for him to be so overly sure of himself aside him holding himself and his power in such high regard that it makes him short sighted.
He doesn't really get better with this throughout the rest of the story.

The Babidi/Dabra one IMO only confirms Piccolo <<< Saiyans. Not anything as specific as Piccolo <<< Base Saiyans.
.

And IMO Piccolo going there to face SSJ is just as valid.
As I stated above, it doesn't all fall back to ki sensing, it couldn't have been the case there since they were all surpressing theirs.

[Piccolo Daimao]

So what's your take on the matter, Daimao? Do you believe the Z-warriors would've beaten her if they attacked her together?

No. Vegeta himself, even as arrogant as he is, said that #18 was an opponent that they wouldn't be any use against, and we have no reason to doubt him, because, as we see, they all get taken out immediately by the Androids and the enormous gap between them is evident. And only Vegeta would be able to keep up with her and last longer than one hit.

[In Brightest Day]

Piccolo vs. Super Saiyan Future Trunks - Android arc.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Piccolo vs. Super Saiyan Future Trunks - Android arc.

Until he merges with God, Piccolo is far outclassed by the Super Saiyans. Even Piccolo himself implies that Trunks is stronger than him.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.2
Context: after Kuririn apologizes for not joining the fight with No.17 and No.18
Piccolo: “Don’t worry about it. Even Trunks as a Super Saiyan was done in with more or less one blow. It wouldn’t have made any difference if you had come.”

[Kaboom]

Yeah, for as ass-kickingly powerful as Piccolo had become, he was still made out to be trailing somewhat behind the Super Saiyans. Even Trunks, who wouldn't have improved that much (compared to Goku and Vegeta anyway) in the comparatively short 8 months between his time traveling trips, was still being highly regarded and used as the measuring stick here, not Piccolo. Piccolo only became a major Super-Saiyan-pwnzing power after merging with Kami.

[Lucas Abner]

Hirudergarn ultimate form vs Gogeta SSJ
Bojack FP vs Goku SSJ Boo arc
Bojack FP vs Perfect Cell
Broly LSSJ Movie 10 vs Mr Boo

[Kaboom]

Hirudergarn ultimate form vs Gogeta SSJ

Hildegarn's a difficult enemy to judge power-wise. At face value, the comparative powers of the main heroes in Movie 13 seem to be reverse of what they should be (Gohan < Gotenks < Goku instead of vice-versa from the manga), but Hildegarn is still just plain stronger than all of them aside from Goku's big fancy new "Deus Ex Machina Fist" attack.

But in general, Goku-Vegeta Fusions have always been portrayed as being in a high-above league of their own. Gogeta could most likely take the monster out.

Bojack FP vs Goku SSJ Boo arc

It'd be a close fight, but Goku's superior fighting skill and ability would probably win it for him in the end.

Bojack FP vs Perfect Cell

They're similar in power, but the difference being that Cell has regenerative abilities, and other fancy tricks which Bojack does not. Cell wins.

Broly LSSJ Movie 10 vs Mr Boo

Broly wins if it's Mister Boo AFTER his evil side was split off, as most of his power left with it to manifest as the Pure Evil Boo. That's the ONLY form of Boo whom Broly can defeat, though. If it's the pre-split Fat Boo, then Broly gets taken down even easier than Vegeta was.

[dbgtFO]

Hirudergarn ultimate form vs Gogeta SSJ

Well I think SSJ Gogeta is weaker than SSJ 3 Gotenks and since that same Gotenks was taken down in one hit by Hildegarn, Gogeta obviously doesn't stand a chance unless he whips out SSJ 3.

Bojack FP vs Goku SSJ Boo arc

Bojack. I don't think Goku's SSJ power changed at all between the Cell and Buu arcs and Bojack is the movie equvalent of Perfect Cell a guy SSJ Goku is a good deal weaker than, so Bojack wins.

Bojack FP vs Perfect Cell

I think it's possible Bojack could be intended as somewhat superior to Cell, but regardless they should be pretty much the same in terms of power, so a very even fight unfolds, but since Cell has regeneration he's the favorite to win.

Broly LSSJ Movie 10 vs Mr Boo

I see two possible scenarios for movie 10.

1. Gohan is Teen Gohan from the regular series.
Broli is then superior to the weakest SSJ 2, which isn't saying that much, so Mr. Buu takes this.

2. Toei didn't know Gohan was supposed to be weaker and therefore made him as strong as his kid counterpart.
Broli then ends up superior to Kid Gohan putting him very close to SSJ 2 Goku and Vegeta and since I think Initial Buu = Mr. Buu, Broli ends up with significantly greater strength and therefore convincingly beats Buu up.

[Fox666]

Hirudergarn ultimate form vs Gogeta SSJ

Well I think SSJ Gogeta is weaker than SSJ 3 Gotenks and since that same Gotenks was taken down in one hit by Hildegarn, Gogeta obviously doesn't stand a chance unless he whips out SSJ 3.

He was still defeated by Goku in the end... that's a problem.

Bojack FP vs Goku SSJ Boo arc

Bojack would win, since we know that Goku was only slight stronger than Gohan was when he defeated Cell.

Bojack FP vs Perfect Cell

Gohan impaled Bojack with a single punch, and at the very beggining he landed a similar attack on Cell which didn't come any close of such damage (while it still severely exausted him).

So I am tempted to believe that Cell is still stronger, or at least considerable more durable. No matter what that gives Cell a huge advantage, besides regeneration.

Broly LSSJ Movie 10 vs Mr Boo

Based on Goten reluctance of fighting Mr. Boo at the 27th Budokai, it seems Mr. Boo was still way beyond the level of a Super Saiyan, so I really doubt Broli stands any chance.

[dbgtFO]

Hirudergarn ultimate form vs Gogeta SSJ

Well I think SSJ Gogeta is weaker than SSJ 3 Gotenks and since that same Gotenks was taken down in one hit by Hildegarn, Gogeta obviously doesn't stand a chance unless he whips out SSJ 3.

He was still defeated by Goku in the end... that's a problem.

Yeah.
On another note, I think movie 13's seemingly screwed up power rankings is simply based on who the most popular characters were at the time instead of what the writers personally thought. Daizenshuu 1(#253) gives us the results of the popularity poll:

5. Piccolo - not featured in the movie and didn't fight in the Buu Arc anyways, so it makes sense for Gohan to be included, since he actually fought in the Arc the movie is based on.

4. Gotenks - While I don't agree with Gohan < Gotenks for this movie, Gotenks obviously gets to do more than Gohan does in this movie, which could indeed be a testament to him being more popular than Gohan.

3. Future Trunks - this one's interesting. Trunks isn't featured in this movie, but the Tapion story seems to be Toei trying to explain how he got his sword in the future timeline(even without Shenlong, Hoi was able to open Minoshia's box, so perhaps he could also open Tapion's box without Shenlong in Trunks' world and with a few twists like Future Trunks and Gohan actually being willing to kill Tapion, it could work) at least with the allusion to Future Trunks in the ending song of the movie.
So that could be a case of them trying to give a final nod to Future Trunks' persistent popularity.

2. Vegeta - While the weakest of the bunch he does pull off a showing seemingly better than Gohan's and he protects some people from Hildegarn's fire. It makes sense that he's thrown away casually, since Vegeta is much weaker than all the others and him appearing and pulling off badass speeches should be what you'd expect of a Vegeta appearance.

1. Goku is of course the most popular guy and therefore also gets feats that contradicts his manga counterpart and is the last man standing and the one who beats up the Big Bad. The title of the movie should also tell you that it's all about Goku.

[Fox666]

I think movie 13's seemingly screwed up power rankings

Which movie or filler is not like that?

But I don't think it's based on popularity. Probably the writers doesn't care much, and care more about action scenes than common sense.

[CatouttaHell]

Hirudergarn ultimate form vs Gogeta SSJ

Manga logic: Gogeta gets one-shotted no matter what form he's in.

Anime/Movie 13 logic: Gogeta kills Hildegarn with an uncharged Ki blast.

Bojack FP vs Goku SSJ Boo arc

Goku destroys Bojack with an uncharged Ki blast.

Bojack had trouble with even SSjin Gohan while Boo arc Goku is implied to be 3x stronger than Gohan.

Bojack FP vs Perfect Cell

Cell beats the crap out of Bojack.

Broly LSSJ Movie 10 vs Mr Boo

Unless Boo tries to turn him into a candy or absorb him he's absolutely helpless here.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Hirudergarn ultimate form vs Gogeta SSJ

While Hirudegarn did manage to take down Gohan, Gotenks and Goku before he pulled out his Dragon Fist, Gogeta's on another league of power. Gogeta wins.

Bojack FP vs Goku SSJ Boo arc

Power-wise, Goku has an edge in this one, so he wins.

Bojack FP vs Perfect Cell

Even if they're around the same level in power, Cell has regeneration, meaning he'll win.

Broly LSSJ Movie 10 vs Mr Boo

I believe that both Broli in DBZ Movie #10 and Mr. Boo, even after expelling his evil, are stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, the former significantly so and the latter somewhat so. Going by this, Broli would be somewhat stronger than Boo, but Boo has regeneration, magic and the ability to turn his enemy into chocolate on his side, so Boo would win.

[Lucas Abner]

Saiberman vs Radits

C16 vs Cell imperfect (versus C16)

Cell imperfect vs Super 13

Super 13 vs Vegeta USSJ [???]

Broly LSSJ movie 10 vs Hatchyack

[Kaboom]

Saibaiman vs Raditz

Raditz has a noticeable power advantage over your 1200-power Saibaiman, and unlike Yamcha he would at least be aware of its self-destruct ability and can most likely avoid it. You won't hear this very often, but... "Raditz wins."

Android 16 vs Imperfect Cell (vs 16)

They have practically identical amounts of power. However, only one of them will never run out of that power. Android 16 wins after a long battle.

Imperfect Cell vs Super 13

I get the impression that Super 13 is even stronger than #16, so that'd most likely win him this. I'm not sure if Androids 13 through 15 were supposed to be infinite-energy models though.

Super 13 vs SSjG2 Vegeta

Yeah, I envision Super 13 being somewhere between Imperfect and Semiperfect Cell. Given that the latter was helpless against Vegeta, the buffed-up prince takes this one pretty easily.

LSSj Broly (Movie 10) vs Hatchyack

I'm afraid I don't know much about ol' Hatchyack to make a call on this one.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Saiberman vs Radits

In his memo to the anime staff published in the DragonBall Z Anime Special, Toriyama confirmed that the Saibaimen's battle power is inferior to Radtiz's, saying "But their battle power is considerably high, at a level slightly inferior to Raditz" (しかし戦闘力はかなり高くラディッツより少し劣る程度). Also, Nappa mentions that the Saibaimen rival Raditz "going just by power", so it seems that Raditz's greater intelligence gives him something of an edge over the Saibaimen, who are barely smart enough to follow simple orders.

So I'd say that Raditz would win.

C16 vs Cell imperfect (versus C16)

Looking at their battle in the manga, I think Cell actually had the upper hand until #16 caught him off-guard with his Rocket Punch (I know, it's a video game term, whatever) and then following up with the Hell's Flash. In fact, I think the only hits #16 got on Cell was when he was off-guard: #1, when Cell tried to drain #16's energy and was momentarily in shock at the fact that he was 100% mechanical, and #2, my example of #16 catching him off-guard with the Rocket Punch, followed up by a Hell's Flash.

However, #16 has infinite energy and therefore will never tire, so he would win.

Cell imperfect vs Super 13

Even though it's not really suggested in the movie itself, I'm going to assume that #13, #14 and #15 were infinite energy models like #16, #17, #18, because #17 and #18 appear to have somewhat knowledge of Dr. Gero's Android models, such as the energy-absorption model and their own infinite energy models.

Chapter: 350 (DBZ 156), P4.3
Context: after No.20 mentions Goku’s friends destroyed No.19
No.17: “No.19? So you built such a thing?...I see, you had him restructure you yourself into an android, doctor? What type was he? Energy-absorption?”
No.20: “Th-that’s right…”
No.18: “Why’d you return to the old energy-absorption model even though he was a new type? Was it because the power of the infinite types is too big and you can’t handle them? That’s why he got done in.”

The Androids in the movie don't appear to be energy-absorption models, and the infinite energy models are apparently so strong that Gero can't control them, and that chapter title page about Gero's Androids say that "#13, #14 and #15 seem to have had a fairly high degree of completion". #13, #14 and #15 are actually pretty strong, with all three managing to put up a fight against the Super Saiyans. And I think that Super #13's around #16's level.

So I'd say that it would be an even fight, and even though Cell would be slightly stronger and can regenerate, #13 would never tire out and eventually overwhelm Cell.

Super 13 vs Vegeta USSJ [???]

As I aforementioned, I think that Super #13's only around #16's level. Second-form Cell's much stronger than #16, and Super Vegeta's much stronger than second-form Cell. So Vegeta would win.

[dbgtFO]

C16 vs Cell imperfect (versus C16)

Looking at their battle in the manga, I think Cell actually had the upper hand until #16 caught him off-guard with his Rocket Punch (I know, it's a video game term, whatever)[...]

It's actually the official name for that technique:
http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.p ... cket_punch

[Piccolo Daimao]

C16 vs Cell imperfect (versus C16)

Looking at their battle in the manga, I think Cell actually had the upper hand until #16 caught him off-guard with his Rocket Punch (I know, it's a video game term, whatever)[...]

It's actually the official name for that technique:
http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.p ... cket_punch

Oh, that's good. Thanks for the info.