Why didn't Pan go SSJ?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But I remember that Toriyama answered in an interview that they don't need the tail anymore since they are strong enough now.

Correct.

[DanielGClapp]

If a gene or trait is recessive, like a tail, then it would have to be present in both parents in order for it to even have a chance of showing up. If the Saiyan tail is indeed a recessive trait, then there is no way that Gohan could be born with a tail, since Chi-Chi most likely does not have Saiyan genetics in her. But, if the trait is recessive, then more than half of Saiyans would not even have a tail.

[Fox666]

And when a human and a dog produce offspring, how the tail genes works?

[Rocketman]

this goes for humans, we don't know the biological things about Saiyans. The fact that they look like humans doesn't mean that they have human standards (super smell, bulletproof skin, huge power, Oozaru, Super Saiyan, tail, larger appetite than a lion, etc)

Saiyans and humans are the same species. That is the very definition of a species - "a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring".

So we have

H. sapiens sapiens (normal humans)
H. sapiens horribilis (Saiyans)
H. sapiens canis (guys like the King)
etc.

[Bussani]

If a gene or trait is recessive, like a tail, then it would have to be present in both parents in order for it to even have a chance of showing up. If the Saiyan tail is indeed a recessive trait, then there is no way that Gohan could be born with a tail, since Chi-Chi most likely does not have Saiyan genetics in her. But, if the trait is recessive, then more than half of Saiyans would not even have a tail.

Not quite. All Saiyans have tails (as far as we know), so all of them would have the recessive trait. You can't have Saiyans without tails if there isn't a dominant "no tail" gene anywhere in the population.

And when a human and a dog produce offspring, how the tail genes works?

Does it actually say somewhere that the animal people are the offspring of humans and animals? I forget.

I suppose that earthlings have the gene, however don't display the traits?

This is a possibility. I don't know if it makes a good example, but a man can inherit the genes for large breasts from a parent; that doesn't mean he'll have large breasts himself, obviously, but his female offspring might. There may be a dominant gene needed for the tail to grow in the first place, a gene that only Saiyans have. On the other hand, maybe someone in Chichi's ancestry had a compatible tail of some kind and she just happens to carry the recessive gene. Maybe her mother had a tail. Heck, maybe Gyumao has one. Not much in Dragon Ball would surprise me.

[Fox666]

Does it actually say somewhere that the animal people are the offspring of humans and animals? I forget.

Not explicitly. While kanzentai doesn't have the translation, herms mentioned it:

Daizenshuu 7 has a bit that says it's hard for them to produce offspring with people who aren't the same type, though I guess that means it's not strictly impossible.

And "animal-type" covers a wide range of earthlings, since the distinction beetween isn't that clear. The pterodactyl from chapter 1 could talk and stand on two legs, despite his anatomy being that of a mere animal. Oolong on the other hand has a torso, arms, legs and even genitals identicals to that of an human.

We at least know what it's possible for very humanesque animals or monster-type Earthlings have offspring with humans. Then again questioning the genetics of human and aliens offspring. Real-life biology doesn't predict the genetic results of a human hybridizing a protozoon.

[DanielGClapp]

And when a human and a dog produce offspring, how the tail genes works?

Is this a joke or are you referring to the many odd creatures in the Toriyama world?

Not quite. All Saiyans have tails (as far as we know), so all of them would have the recessive trait. You can't have Saiyans without tails if there isn't a dominant "no tail" gene anywhere in the population.

Alright well lets say no tail=T and tail=t. If you draw up a punnet square, assuming that Goku's genotype is tt (it would have to be if all Saiyans have only the recessive tail gene), and Chi-Chi's genotype is TT, then there is no way of getting a child with a tail. The only way to get a child with a tail would be if t was a recessive trait in Humans, and Chi-Chi just happened to be carrying the trait. Even then, there would only be 1/4 of a chance of getting a child with a tail. This would make sense if all Saiyans have the tt genotype, but what doesn't make sense is why there would be a tail gene floating around in Human genetics. If there is, then there should be a number of people with tails. Again, since it has been determined that the tail gene is recessive, and if all Saiyans have tails, then there can be no dominant no tail gene in Saiyan genetics.

[Bussani]

Alright well lets say no tail=T and tail=t. If you draw up a punnet square, assuming that Goku's genotype is tt (it would have to be if all Saiyans have only the recessive tail gene), and Chi-Chi's genotype is TT, then there is no way of getting a child with a tail. The only way to get a child with a tail would be if t was a recessive trait in Humans, and Chi-Chi just happened to be carrying the trait. Even then, there would only be 1/4 of a chance of getting a child with a tail. This would make sense if all Saiyans have the tt genotype, but what doesn't make sense is why there would be a tail gene floating around in Human genetics. If there is, then there should be a number of people with tails. Again, since it has been determined that the tail gene is recessive, and if all Saiyans have tails, then there can be no dominant no tail gene in Saiyan genetics.

That's exactly right, and it's what we point out is "wrong" with Toriyama's explanation whenever it's brought up. Chichi has to have a tail gene from either her mother or father for Gohan to be born with a tail. If I had to pick an explanation, I'd say it's something specific to Chichi's family rather than something found in all humans. I mean, her dad's pretty odd, so you never know. On the other hand, it could be that many humans do carry the recessive tail genes, but that humans lack a tail growth gene to express the trait.

[DanielGClapp]

Haha maybe Chi-Chi has an ox tail gene! But yes, maybe humans have the trait, but it can only be expressed by being combined with Saiyan tail traits. That sounds like the best explanation so far.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I hope you are joking about Chichi having a tail...

[Bussani]

I hope you are joking about Chichi having a tail...

No one said Chichi has a tail. Carrying the gene for a tail and having a tail are two different things.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I hope you are joking about Chichi having a tail...

No one said Chichi has a tail. Carrying the gene for a tail and having a tail are two different things.

Yeah, she may have the gene of a tail(which I highly doubt), but she cant's have he gene of a Saiyan tail, the one that is needed to become Oozaru...

[Bussani]

I hope you are joking about Chichi having a tail...

No one said Chichi has a tail. Carrying the gene for a tail and having a tail are two different things.

Yeah, she may have the gene of a tail(which I highly doubt), but she cant's have he gene of a Saiyan tail, the one that is needed to become Oozaru...

The idea of an entire tail being controlled by a single gene is pretty silly. Both parents may need to pass down a recessive gene for the child to have a tail, but all of the Oozaruness in the tail could come from Goku's side of the family.

[DanielGClapp]

Yeah, she may have the gene of a tail(which I highly doubt), but she cant's have he gene of a Saiyan tail, the one that is needed to become Oozaru...

I think Goku's genes are enough to pass on the Oozaru trait. We were just trying to figure out how Gohan got his tail in the first place.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think Goku's genes are enough to pass on the Oozaru trait. We were just trying to figure out how Gohan got his tail in the first place.

That's exactly what I believe.

[caejones]

Like I've said before, the only way that "tails are recessive" can work is if tails are controlled by more than one genes.

Say T is the dominant "no tail" allele, which does not appear in the saiyan population at all.
Say "t" is the recessive "have a tail" allele, which all saiyans have.
Then, say we have another gene that determines whether or not we even care about the tail gene.
N means we give a shit, n means we ignore it entirely.

Although, in this model, "tails are recessive" could refer to either gene. Which would make the most sense is hard to figure.

I remember the last post I made on this coming out riper. Bleh, I just got up.

[Maphisto86]

Usually I like to believe the idea that what the author says goes unless contradicted by what they wrote before without a suitable retcon. If you asked Mr. Toriyama today about the whole Goten and Trunks not having tails thing, the man may have a completely different answer. Then again, Akira Toriyama has been somewhat consistant when giving answers in the guidebooks.

Anyway, my personal feeling on the matter is that saiyans and humans are very compatable and maybe in the Dragonball universe a lot of different races can mix. Although by appearance alone, Saiyans and Humans look like they could be related (or perhaps it is just convergent evolution at work). Still, all this talk of genetics in fiction like Dragonball which is clearly fantasy is bound to become contradictory. Especially since biology is not touched upon much in the series in any detail. Not to mention the universe the characters inhabit are filled with all sorts of weird and wonderful sentient beings including supernatural beings (gods, genies, vampires, ghosts, etc).

My two cents about the original topic and saiyan tails plays out like this:

- In-universe Pan never went super saiyan because she did not quite have the right stimulus to do so. I mean she is clearly strong and powerful enough but despite all the dangers in GT's storyline she did not become angry enough or lacked the focus needed (what I think the "pure heart" stuff is all about) to become one. Or perhaps it was a consequence of Gohan's powers being brought forth by the Old Kaioshin before Pan was concieved, meaning she has the power but does not need transform. I actually believe the former more than the latter. Bra never became a super saiyan for the simple reason that she did not seem to like fighting as much as her father did so Bra never became strong enough too (but nevertheless still had the potential if she tried). Out of universe, for some reason the writers did not care to expand Pan's abilities that way. Personally I see GT more as apocrophya then canon but that's just me (even though it has some good ideas).

- As for Saiyan tails, I tend to interpret that Goten and Trunks had the genes somewhere but in their case it was not utilized. I don't think it has anything to do with their father's becoming super saiyans (or well Goten' father) but you never know. Perhaps as mentioned in earlier posts it is a genetic lottery when it comes to saiyan-human (or saiyan-whatever) hybrids that only a certain percentage are born with a tail and the rest without. Like how two siblings can have drastically different hair or eye color. I also believe that pure saiyans can regrow their tails only up to a certain age. It sucks but in real life getting old has it's downsides. This applies for tailed saiyan-human hybrids like Gohan as well. Unless genetically manipulated, treated or something, a tail will stop regrowing beyond a certain point in that individual's life. Judging by Raditz's reaction to Goku missing his tail as an adult, I doubt the saiyans had such a treatment. Anyway, Vegeta having grown up after most of his people were killed was simply ignorant of this fact as he was probably the youngest saiyan he knew until meeting Son Goku and unless Nappa or Raditz told him about the age limit ("the talk" ), the prince probably just assumed it would grow back like before. That's my guess anyway. Out of universe reason is likely Mr. Toriyama just changing his mind about details as the story progresses again. Still, do you guys think my retcon works or does it have a hole in it?

[caejones]

I can totally agree with your explanations.
I still find it amusing to try to work out how real-world biology and details in Dragonball can try to maybe possibly a little get along. Despite that I know full well that saying SSJ3 involves expelling as much caratine as possible to enable more ki-flow is pretty silly.
I have to imagine some fun things could have happened later on if Toriyama hadn't written out / forgotten about tails, though.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I also believe that pure saiyans can regrow their tails only up to a certain age. It sucks but in real life getting old has it's downsides. This applies for tailed saiyan-human hybrids like Gohan as well. Unless genetically manipulated, treated or something, a tail will stop regrowing beyond a certain point in that individual's life. Judging by Raditz's reaction to Goku missing his tail as an adult, I doubt the saiyans had such a treatment. Anyway, Vegeta having grown up after most of his people were killed was simply ignorant of this fact as he was probably the youngest saiyan he knew until meeting Son Goku and unless Nappa or Raditz told him about the age limit ("the talk" ), the prince probably just assumed it would grow back like before. That's my guess anyway.

It's already explained by Toriyama that when a Saiyan gets as strong as Goku and Vegeta are, the tails stop growing back because it gets in their way.

[Maphisto86]

I also believe that pure saiyans can regrow their tails only up to a certain age. It sucks but in real life getting old has it's downsides. This applies for tailed saiyan-human hybrids like Gohan as well. Unless genetically manipulated, treated or something, a tail will stop regrowing beyond a certain point in that individual's life. Judging by Raditz's reaction to Goku missing his tail as an adult, I doubt the saiyans had such a treatment. Anyway, Vegeta having grown up after most of his people were killed was simply ignorant of this fact as he was probably the youngest saiyan he knew until meeting Son Goku and unless Nappa or Raditz told him about the age limit ("the talk" ), the prince probably just assumed it would grow back like before. That's my guess anyway.

It's already explained by Toriyama that when a Saiyan gets as strong as Goku and Vegeta are, the tails stop growing back because it gets in their way.

I always wondered why that is though. I mean isn't the tail as natural a thing to saiyans as a limb or one of the senses? It's also a way to gain much more power and strength. Not to mention the sensitivity weakness is eliminated with training. Then again I am biased as I am a fan of the Ozaru form. It's "word of god" so I suppose one should just accept it. I recall hearing Akira Toriyama saying that but I am not sure. I can't remember which of the guide books has that interview.