Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[dbgtFO]

There isn't any fundament in claiming that the Shin Kikoho could kill a Super Saiyan. Especially considering as far as the story goes, for some reason he didn't used it against no.19 and the other androids.

And there are a number of reasons you could make as to why Tenshinhan didn't use it against the Androids: takes too much time to charge (he got caught in a chokehold by #17 after throwing one punch), had only devised it recently, etc.

The fact that there was no need for him to use that technique as long as there were guys capable of fighting the enemy(ies) is what I consider the most likely reason for him not thinking of using it.

[Senzu_Bean]

Generally if you follow the rule that the heroes in the following arc always surpass the villians in the previous arc, you have a good basis. That's pretty much as big of a clue as we can get into Toriyama's thinking. His math skills are absolutely horrid...

Nobody surpassed Piccolo Daimao but Goku until the rest of the super-warriors received training from Kami and Mr. Popo.

If you're talking about Goku and Goku only then maybe you're right.

The fact that there was no need for him to use that technique as long as there were guys capable of fighting the enemy(ies) is what I consider the most likely reason for him not thinking of using it.

Me too. After all the technique could potentially kill him.

[Onikage725]

And, also...ki attacks vs 19 = no. Once he saw Goku's Kamehameha get absorbed, there's no way he would throw something that strong at it.

And I would challenge this retrospective notion we fans tend to have that Toriyama "wasn't paying attention." Looking solely at the Saiyan and Freeza arcs, the math is pretty straight forward and consistent right up until the last number we are given (Freeza's claiming to be 1 mil). Everything after that get's illogical, and Toriyama wastes no time in the next arc showing is through various characters that we (the readers) should let the numbers go and enjoy the ride.

But can you honestly say the Ginyu fight, for example, wasn't thought out and consistent? Both Goku and Ginyu were holding back, with actual powers around 100k (90 for Goku, 120 for Ginyu). The whole time, Ginyu senses he his stronger (and is correct, though he does underestimate Goku's max). Goku uses Kaio-ken, shoots to his max of 90k, then doubles to 180k (the expressly stated effect of using a base Kaio-ken). Ginyu freaks out, then calms down and body-switches after wounding himself. In doing so, he weakens both fighters. Goku can't reach his full power due to his injury. Ginyu can't reach Goku's full power because of Goku's unorthodox training and fighting styles. He can't use his power in bursts, and he sure as hell can't use Kaio-ken. He would never have hit the level beyond what his old body could within the scope of that fight, but he did start to figure out how to use Goku's body and got closer to that 90k (by how much we never know- probably not THAT much before Vegeta kicked his teeth in, but he did start to improve). He then decided that Vegeta would be a better candidate, fresh from a power up and having a fighting style closer to his own.

How is any of that the work of a guy who was not paying attention and just winging it? He knew what he was doing- he just got tired of doing it that way. At the end of the day, scouters were a crutch used to judge a book by its cover. If there were NO numbers at all, then there would be no difference in how one talks about power growth in DBZ to how one would in any other shonen show. Naruto is constantly improving, has transformations, and uses odd training methods to unlock new techniques. And I never try to attach an arbitrary number to him. Going by the numbers takes some suspense out of the outcome of a fight. The only way a character could win a fight at that point in Z was by surprising the scouter by showing hidden power or by transformation.

[Piccolo Daimao]

There isn't any fundament in claiming that the Shin Kikoho could kill a Super Saiyan. Especially considering as far as the story goes, for some reason he didn't used it against no.19 and the other androids.

And there are a number of reasons you could make as to why Tenshinhan didn't use it against the Androids: takes too much time to charge (he got caught in a chokehold by #17 after throwing one punch), had only devised it recently, etc.

The fact that there was no need for him to use that technique as long as there were guys capable of fighting the enemy(ies) is what I consider the most likely reason for him not thinking of using it.

Yeah, I agree.

And, also...ki attacks vs 19 = no. Once he saw Goku's Kamehameha get absorbed, there's no way he would throw something that strong at it.

And I would challenge this retrospective notion we fans tend to have that Toriyama "wasn't paying attention." Looking solely at the Saiyan and Freeza arcs, the math is pretty straight forward and consistent right up until the last number we are given (Freeza's claiming to be 1 mil). Everything after that get's illogical, and Toriyama wastes no time in the next arc showing is through various characters that we (the readers) should let the numbers go and enjoy the ride.

But can you honestly say the Ginyu fight, for example, wasn't thought out and consistent? Both Goku and Ginyu were holding back, with actual powers around 100k (90 for Goku, 120 for Ginyu). The whole time, Ginyu senses he his stronger (and is correct, though he does underestimate Goku's max). Goku uses Kaio-ken, shoots to his max of 90k, then doubles to 180k (the expressly stated effect of using a base Kaio-ken). Ginyu freaks out, then calms down and body-switches after wounding himself. In doing so, he weakens both fighters. Goku can't reach his full power due to his injury. Ginyu can't reach Goku's full power because of Goku's unorthodox training and fighting styles. He can't use his power in bursts, and he sure as hell can't use Kaio-ken. He would never have hit the level beyond what his old body could within the scope of that fight, but he did start to figure out how to use Goku's body and got closer to that 90k (by how much we never know- probably not THAT much before Vegeta kicked his teeth in, but he did start to improve). He then decided that Vegeta would be a better candidate, fresh from a power up and having a fighting style closer to his own.

How is any of that the work of a guy who was not paying attention and just winging it? He knew what he was doing- he just got tired of doing it that way. At the end of the day, scouters were a crutch used to judge a book by its cover. If there were NO numbers at all, then there would be no difference in how one talks about power growth in DBZ to how one would in any other shonen show. Naruto is constantly improving, has transformations, and uses odd training methods to unlock new techniques. And I never try to attach an arbitrary number to him. Going by the numbers takes some suspense out of the outcome of a fight. The only way a character could win a fight at that point in Z was by surprising the scouter by showing hidden power or by transformation.

This sums up my opinion beautifully.

[CatouttaHell]

Nobody surpassed Piccolo Daimao but Goku until the rest of the super-warriors received training from Kami and Mr. Popo.

If you're talking about Goku and Goku only then maybe you're right.

No. Tenshinhan was dominating a Goku who was flat-out stated to have massively improved from when he defeated Piccolo Daimao in everything but speed.

Logically Kuririn and Yamucha should be rivaling Piccolo Daimao by the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai at the very least. At most it's possible even Cyborg Tao Pai Pai surpassed him.

[jjgp1112]

Nobody surpassed Piccolo Daimao but Goku until the rest of the super-warriors received training from Kami and Mr. Popo.

If you're talking about Goku and Goku only then maybe you're right.

No. Tenshinhan was dominating a Goku who was flat-out stated to have massively improved from when he defeated Piccolo Daimao in everything but speed.

Logically Kuririn and Yamucha should be rivaling Piccolo Daimao by the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai at the very least. At most it's possible even Cyborg Tao Pai Pai surpassed him.

Ti­en also shit his pants during that fight when he realized just how much stronger Goku REALLY was

[CatouttaHell]

Ti­en also shit his pants during that fight when he realized just how much stronger Goku REALLY was

So? Goku had powered up massively. That doesn't mean Tenshinhan is weaker than Piccolo Daimao.

Tenshinhan was dominating Goku when all of his attributes but his speed were above what they were when he defeated Piccolo.

Son Goku (Post-God's Training) > Tenshinhan > Son Goku (Post-Choushinsui) > Piccolo Daimao

[p123]

Tenshinhan said 23rd Goku Weights > Goku ( Piccolo Daimao Saga ) , as well as Tenshinhan fighting 23rd Goku evenly, and is actually faster than him...



23rd Tenshinhan ( Speed / Power ) = 23rd Weighted Goku ( Power ) > 23rd Weighted Goku ( Speed ) = Goku/Piccolo Daimao

[Rocketman]

Tien wasn't fighting Goku evenly. Master Roshi outright says so.

[Kaboom]

I think the point he's trying to make is that whatever level Goku was keeping himself down to against Tenshinhan, it was supposedly still above that of King Piccolo 3 years ago.

[p123]

Well Tenshinhan and Weighted Son Goku are stated to be a match several times. Muten Roshi only brings up the difference in breathing , the cause is that the latter has learned to fight without making unnecessary movements. That was part of Kami's training.

In light of that.

Tenshinhan = Weighted Son Goku's Power , which is stated to have surpassed his power from three years ago, which was at least equal with Piccolo Daimao if not slightly superior as the anime suggests which I think makes sense.

Now , it's also stated that Weighted Son Goku's speed has remained the same from three years ago. As we can see from the battle, Tenshinhan is significantly faster to a point Son Goku can't do hardly anything to stop his onslaught.

But keep in mind it's nothing close to how big the difference is between Unweighted Son Goku and Tenshinhan's power/speed in which Goku is able to remove his belt without him noticing.

Personally I feel the gaps look like this.

Unweighted Goku 300
Tenshinhan 220
Weighted Goku's Power 220
Goku 3 years ago / Weighted Goku's Speed 200
Piccolo Daimao 195 ( or 200 if you like )


So yes, without a doubt , Tenshinhan is indeed stronger and faster than Piccolo Daimao , but he is the only one besides Son Goku who is.

It's probable that Kuririn and Yamucha are probably as strong as Old Piccolo Daimao if not rivaling Piccolo Daimao ( Youth Restored )

[Rocketman]

Sounds like more MOUNTAIN TRAINING crap to me.

[p123]

What Oob Mountain Training your saying?

It's really not that difficult to understand. Goku is more powerful now then when he was fighting Piccolo and Tenshinhan matches that level . It's that simple. There's no supposedly, it just is.

[Kaboom]

"MOUNTAIN TRAINING" is in reference to when someone believes that a character made blatantly unrealistic or unbelievably large strength gains for no good reason. It stems from how some people think Tenshinhan can keep up with monsters like Goku and Piccolo and what-not just from humping around in the mountains with Chaozu. It'd apply more to the current discussion about Gotenks in the Versus thread more than with Ten vs Piccolo here.

[p123]

Ah ok gotcha. Yea, that's one of the worst and best things about Dragonball. It's used to keep the good guys relevant but insane when you think about it.

Initial Goku matching Roshi in at least his base form is insane.

Yamucha and Kuririn (22nd Budokai ) surpassing Son Goku Post Karin Training is absolutely insane.

Tenshinhan surpassing Piccolo Daimao is insane.

Yamucha / Kuririn / Tenshinhan all surpassing Raditz is insane.

Kuririn ( Guru Unlock ) surpassing Vegeta was insane.


Dragonball is just ridiculous. They build up an insanely evil powerful villian for a whole saga just to have freaking Kuririn come and surpass him easily the next saga.

[Kaboom]

Well, at the same time Dragon Ball is also full of a truckload of toonforce and comedy feats. A lot of it is just more Dr. Slump but with kung-fu. I mean, obviously the fights and the overall character strength comparisons should still be taken seriously to a degree, but... like, do we have to consider Kuririn and Roshi's entire fight within a fraction of a second from the 21st Budokai as a serious feat? No, obviously not. You could almost say that King Piccolo was the first real and serious threat.

Also, and I've mentioned this before... numerical power levels as we know them are merely measurements of Ki. Back in Dragon Ball, until the King Piccolo era, Ki was just a secondary element of battles, not yet the primary and deciding one. So in that way, you might be able to give the official DB numbers a pass and not worry about them. That's what I do, anyway.

[p123]

Agreed if you take all the DB feats seriously Piccolo Daimao would be like a million power level.

DB power levels are nearly impossible so I don't blame them for their inaccuracies. Toriyama did not leave enough space to make things possible.

[Kaboom]

I think the powers-that-be who came up with the DB levels in the guidebooks realized the same thing. So I'd wager they just picked some numbers for Goku and his enemies that were adequately spaced apart and below what Toriyama established for the heroes at the start of the 'Z' portion. Not really anyone's "fault," per se, and the 'not all about Ki yet' excuse leaves enough wiggle room if you ask me.

[p123]

Yea it's not like guys sat there and came up with formulas all day like me and COH.

AT probably just said, hey I said that they surpassed me at the 23rd Budokai so I'll just put this.

Roshi 139
Yamucha 177
Kuririn 206
Tien 250

Yea that looks about right. It's not like he sat there and said.

Tien ( 23rd Budokai ) = Weighted Goku > Goku >= Piccolo Daimao Young > Piccolo Daimao Old > Piccolo Daimao ( Less than half ) >> Son Goku (22nd ) = Tenshinhan >= FP Roshi

If he did, he would have realized that those numbers were not enough.

[Rocketman]

Initial Goku matching Roshi in at least his base form is insane.

Goku is a space warrior who's supposed to be able to stomp on planets from basically infancy.

Yamucha and Kuririn (22nd Budokai ) surpassing Son Goku Post Karin Training is absolutely insane.

Tenshinhan surpassing Piccolo Daimao is insane.

Didn't happen until Kami's training for Tien and Yamcha, although Krillin did manage to surpass 22nd Goku by the time Raditz landed. Good for him.

Yamucha / Kuririn / Tenshinhan all surpassing Raditz is insane.

Kuririn ( Guru Unlock ) surpassing Vegeta was insane.

Those were direct intervention by gods, not "Tien did some nebulous, ill-defined 'training' so he is strong".