The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Kaboom]

Thoughts ?

Honestly, there's no reason to assume the "no Super Saiyan" rule is in effect for the 28th Budokai. The main purpose of it in the 25th was to protect Gohan's Saiyaman identity (and, as far as Vegeta was concerned, to make things "more fair"), but this time Gohan's not even participating, so that's moot.

When you factor in that Boo lost "most" of his former SSj2-stomping power when his manifested evil side split off, then it really could just be Goten's own fault that he's not a match for Boo yet. If he'd been training for the last 10 years, who knows how strong he'd be as a Super Saiyan, or even potentially a Super Saiyan 2.

So, uh... needless to say, I don't think "Base [anybody but Vegetto] versus Boo" is a match even worth bothering approaching because it'd be so one-sided.

[p123]

I would agree that the no Super Saiyan rule is not in effect. There's no reason for it to be.

[In Brightest Day]

Yamcha vs. Yajirobe at the 23rd Budokai.

[Fox666]

Yajirobe was capable of fighting even with Goku after the 22nd Budokai without even unsheating his sword.

So I expect Yajirobe to win.

[In Brightest Day]

I suppose. However, Yamcha lasted far longer against Kami than Yajirobe did. Yamcha stuck around, took a beating and his Sokidan attack was actually able to make Kami somewhat nervous. Yaji was defeated with one blow.

[Fox666]

Yeah, that's true. But still, I am not sure if you really can compare with Kami. When Kami really wanted to, he took Yamcha out of the ring in one blow. Perhaps he wanted to play with one of Goku friends and disciples of Karin, unlike he would with a random masked fat guy?

[InfernalVegito]

Super Baby Vegeta 1 vs. Super Saiyajin 2/3 Goku (DBZ)

[CatouttaHell]

Yamucha would finger-flick Yajirobe.

Muten Roshi flat-out stated that all of them had surpassed him, so we have Yamucha > Chaozu > Muten Roshi right off the bat.

Then take into account that Tenshinhan is above Piccolo Daimao by a great amount and that nothing says the gap between him and Yamucha got much bigger, if at all, and there's no way Yajirobe could be anything but fodder.

[Fox666]

Then take into account that Tenshinhan is above Piccolo Daimao

But the official battle power for Piccolo Daimao is still greater than Tenshinhan was in the reading of Raditz' Scouter.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yamcha vs. Yajirobe at the 23rd Budokai.

Yajirobe would put up a fight, but Yamcha would eventually win. While it's true that Yajirobe was stronger than Yamcha three years before, he doesn't have as much heart as a martial artist as Yamcha and co., being portrayed as lazy and cowardly, and he probably didn't train under Karin like the others. And Yamcha simply got more attention at the 23rd TB and was commended by Kame-sennin and even God himself for his strength and expertise as a martial artist.

[p123]

Yamucha would wreck Yajirobe at the 23rd Budokai. Yamucha is so strong now, that he is capable of impressing even God. Yajirobe is nowhere on that level.

[Kirby456]

Yajirobe would wreck start of Z Yamcha he was nearly even with a pissed of Goku WHO thought he was working for Tambourine and he climbed Korin tower twice hed proabably be evenly matched with 23rd Budokai Krillin. Yajirobe would pwn Yamcha hard.

Janemba Imo would be closer to Mystic Gohan he wrecked Goku and Vegeta easyly and Gogeta went straight to SSJ against him that should show use how strong he is.

[p123]

Yajirobe would wreck start of Z Yamcha he was nearly even with a pissed of Goku WHO thought he was working for Tambourine and he climbed Karin tower twice hed proabably be evenly matched with 23rd Budokai Krillin. Yajirobe would pwn Yamcha hard.

Goku was most likely using his match level against Yajirobe for some reason.


Goku ( Battle Level ) > Tambourine > Goku ( Match Level ) = Yajirobe > Cymbal



Yajirobe shat himself when he witnessed Goku vs Tambourine, and Cymbal, who is many times weaker than Tambourine , gave Yajirobe a run for his money.


It's a confusing scenario , thankfully, COH pointed this all out to me...

[Kirby456]

Cymbal punched Yajirobe once Yajirobe got up and beat his ass not rivals at all lol Goku was enraged at Yajirobe he thought he was Tambourine or working for Tambourine and was coming at him with everything he had Yajirobe just says something like "i wouldint want to be his enemy" which is understanble since Goku went insaine dosint really freak out or go crazy.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Apparently if Goten trained more, beating Good Boo would be no problem, which is absolutely absurd to wrap your mind around.

Why? We're talking about ten years later. Goten already had explosive potential as a child-- had he kept up his training, I can't see why he wouldn't be able to manage exploiting that potential.


~Da Lemmy

[p123]

I never said Cymbal rivals Yajirobe. Yajirobe > Cymbal is clear, but it's not by a tremendous amount . Yajirobe isn't implied to be able to have been able to do anything to Tambourine.

Well that's true. But the whole...


Pure Boo = Oob's Rage Burst > Oob = Base Goku > Good Boo


Is just an insane implication you know?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Apparently if Goten trained more, beating Good Boo would be no problem, which is absolutely absurd to wrap your mind around.

Why? We're talking about ten years later. Goten already had explosive potential as a child-- had he kept up his training, I can't see why he wouldn't be able to manage exploiting that potential.


~Da Lemmy

Because only a Super Saiyan 2 and above was able to fight Boo without being instantly wrecked? And yes, I know that Boo's power fell after he expelled his evil, but still. I doubt Goten has the discipline or heart for battle (like Goku, Vegeta and other veteran warriors) needed to even transform into a Super Saiyan 2. And we can't just assume that because Goten achieved Super Saiyan with no rage trigger, then he can achieve Super Saiyan 2 with no rage trigger as well. Gohan only managed to ascend to Super Saiyan 2 after getting pissed off enough at the Cell Games.

[p123]

Well PD, there is a whole slew of POVs that can come out of the Good Boo being no problem statement. Personally, although I do not like it at all, I'm leaning towards the insane implication that is implied.


Kid Boo = Oob's Rage Burst > Base Goku = Oob > Good Boo


Now , obviously, that's insane. But you can start to see that this is probably where TOEI got the idea to make the Base Saiyans so strong in GT.



Option #2

Goten easily got Super Saiyan. In the fusion Gotenks, easily got Super Saiyan 3. Goku could possibly be talking about any form at this point, it has been 10 years later so who really knows?

But it's possible that Goku is saying

SSJ3 > Good Boo
SSJ2 > Good Boo
SSJ > Good Boo
Base > Good Boo


It's pretty insane implication, that isn't totally clear. Thing is, the implication that Oob may be > Good Boo, and that final rage burst possibly = to Kid Boo , is what leans me to the insane implication. Plus the GT logic certainly doesn't hurt the situation either...

[rereboy]

If Goten trained hard enough (you know, like Goku), he would probably be able to achieve SSJ2 and SSJ3.

Since Mr. Buu is about as strong as SSJ2 or somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3, if Goten did that, he would be able to beat Mr. Buu.

That is all Goku was saying to him. That it was perfectly possible for Goten to beat him if he trained.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Because only a Super Saiyan 2 and above was able to fight Boo without being instantly wrecked? And yes, I know that Boo's power fell after he expelled his evil, but still. I doubt Goten has the discipline or heart for battle (like Goku, Vegeta and other veteran warriors) needed to even transform into a Super Saiyan 2. And we can't just assume that because Goten achieved Super Saiyan with no rage trigger, then he can achieve Super Saiyan 2 with no rage trigger as well. Gohan only managed to ascend to Super Saiyan 2 after getting pissed off enough at the Cell Games.

But are we entirely confident that a rage trigger is essential for that transformation? While that's certainly how Gohan reached it, the fact that both Goku and Vegeta both reached it independently in the time since (while under relatively unknown circumstances, I'll admit) seems to suggest that rage is not the only means with which to do it. The larger part of the equation would appear to be strenuous training. The first stage of Super Saiyan DOES seem to require an emotional component, but 2 and especially 3 appear to be somewhat "unlocked" via the original transformation, to be gained by motivated individuals who push their limits.

Goten doesn't have the discipline, no. That's why he slacks off like he does. But had he bothered to keep up his training, I see no reason why he shouldn't have been able to advance like other Saiyans have before him.

Goten easily got Super Saiyan. In the fusion Gotenks, easily got Super Saiyan 3. Goku could possibly be talking about any form at this point, it has been 10 years later so who really knows?

But it's possible that Goku is saying

SSJ3 > Good Boo
SSJ2 > Good Boo
SSJ > Good Boo
Base > Good Boo

If even a base form character can topple . . . well, any form of Boo, then that would basically have been Goku admitting that Goten is impossibly weak. Which I doubt.

If Goten trained hard enough (you know, like Goku), he would probably be able to achieve SSJ2 and SSJ3.

Since Mr. Buu is about as strong as SSJ2 or somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3, if Goten did that, he would be able to beat Mr. Buu.

That is all Goku was saying to him. That it was perfectly possible for Goten to beat him if he trained.

Yes, if. IF he did. That's basically all I meant to say, in a much more compressed format. ^_^;


~Da Lemmy