Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[p123]

Kuririn and Yamucha ( 22nd Budokai ) > Post Karin Training Goku

That's in the story dude. Why do you think differently?

[CatouttaHell]

Didn't happen until Kami's training for Tenshinhan and Yamcha, although Krillin did manage to surpass 22nd Goku by the time Raditz landed. Good for him.

P123 already proved Tenshinhan surpassed Piccolo Daimao by the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai. The garbage 260 number for Piccolo Daimao is factually wrong.

Tenshinhan completely dominated a Goku that had powered up in every aspect but speed from the time he beat the crap out of Piccolo Daimao.

Kuririn at the 22nd fought evenly with a Goku that was more powerful than he was after Karin-sama's training.

[Rocketman]

Kuririn and Yamucha ( 22nd Budokai ) > Post Karin Training Goku

That's in the story dude. Why do you think differently?

Yamcha was 177 when Raditz landed. Guidebook says Goku and Tien were 180 at the 22nd.

Tenshinhan completely dominated Goku

Now that I don't see at all.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Tenshinhan completely dominated Goku

Now that I don't see at all.

I think he means that when Tenshinhan stopped holding back his speed against Goku (who was still wearing weights), he was beating him because he was faster than him. But once Goku removed his weights, he was obviously much faster and stronger than Tenshinhan.

I don't think the ~MOUNTAIN TRAINING~ objection particularly applies here. Remember that the Earthlings had trained with Karin, and as we saw in the RRA arc, Goku had gone from Tao Pai Pai's bitch to his superior in only three days of training with Karin. And it was said that Tenshinhan had improved dramatically, enough to blow away cyborg Tao Pai Pai's Super Dodonpa and fight toe-to-toe with a weighted Goku who, according to Tenshinhan, had surpassed his power three years before.

I'm not sure myself how strong Tenshinhan is at the 23rd TB, but I wouldn't rule out the opinion that Tenshinhan at the 23rd TB's stronger than Piccolo Daimao just going by CatouttaHell's reputation for this kind of stuff.

[CatouttaHell]

Yamcha was 177 when Raditz landed. Guidebook says Goku and Tenshinhan were 180 at the 22nd.

It also says God is weaker than Tenshinhan and Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo is almost as strong as Nappa, Chichi is almost as strong as Buff Roshi, Mr. Popo is stronger than Son Goku, Piccolo and Chaozu, etc.

Manga > numbers somebody randomly pulled out of their arse without any thought behind them.

Now that I don't see at all.

Chapter: 177, P1.2-4, P2.1
Tenshinhan: “Son, you are truly incredible. 3 years ago, your strength was all but perfect. I’m amazed that you’ve managed to go so far above even that. However, there’s one thing that you haven’t changed that much from 3 years ago. And that’s something especially important in battle…speed!”

[VegettoEX]

Manga > numbers

There's absolutely no reason you need to type like this. Use your words. The community isn't going to take you seriously unless you can communicate properly.

somebody randomly pulled out of their arse without any thought behind them.

But why aren't those numbers correct, and why is there no "thought behind them"...? Granted, I'm not reading every post here, but if you actually want to engage with your fellow fans in a discussion about this stuff (I don't know if you genuinely do, or if you just want to piss into the wind), then you're going to actually need to provide some context and reasoning for this kind of stuff.

So what's wrong with the numbers? Do you simply disagree on principle? Why? What about the books (and which books, in particular?) make you think this way? Would this hold true for any other series and its guides? Is it just the particular authors, both of the series itself and of its respective guide books?

Maybe you've said it before. Maybe you haven't. I don't know. All I'm reading is this right here, much like plenty of other folks reading the thread.

Posting up a series of images and some quotes isn't a response -- if you want to continue posting, you're going to need to use that magical word: "discussion". Add something valuable. All I see is a combination of back-handed comments and sarcasm from a lot of you battle power folks, and that's just not welcome. At all.

[p123]

Yea the official numbers are just flat out wrong regarding Kuririn and Yamucha 22nd Budokai in comparison to Goku Post Karin.

But it doesn't mean we have to be so harsh about inaccuracies made by the guidebook , power level numbers are not that serious.

But yes COH is right the manga trumps whatever power levels were created by the guidebooks. The manga says that Kuririn and Yamucha 22nd Budokai surpassed Post Karin Training and there's no real reason to dispute that.

I think COH is a bit quick on the trigger to lash out on the guidebooks power levels mistakes because this is more or less a new type of thinking for him. He follows the Daiz closer than anyone I've ever seen, so it's understandable for him to be a bit more disgusted by flaws than others.

Everyone is subject to human error whether that be Toriyama or the creators of the guidebooks, we all know that, but I understand why COH gets upset with them as he almost expects there not to be any human error.

[Rocketman]

Chichi is almost as strong as Buff Roshi

Still not seeing the problem with this~

[p123]

Chi Chi being close to Roshi is not really a big problem, he does call her quite the expert .

Personally I feel that Chi Chi is probably close to Base Roshi though, probably not much more than that.

Chaozu and Yajirobe should both be above Buff Roshi as well.

[Rocketman]

Also I completely forgot that the humans climbed Korin Tower before the 23rd Budokai, so I retract my MOUNTAIN TRAINING.

[p123]

So on a villian standpoint, we can see how DB works really.

The first major villian is Tao Pai Pai.

Kuririn/ Yamucha / Chaozu ( 22nd ) are all above Tao Pai Pai.


The next major villian is Piccolo Daimao.

23rd Tien > Piccolo Daimao


The next major villian is Piccolo Ma- Junior. It doesn't seem that anyone had surpassed him over the 5 year gap though.


The next villian is Raditz.

Raditz is surpassed by Goku/Piccolo/Tenshinhan/Kuririn/Yamucha

Chaozu and Gohan are debatable, I'd think they are probably at highest equal to Saibamen, and probably under. Which means they did not surpass Raditz, who is stronger than Saibamen, by a small amount of course.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Chichi is almost as strong as Buff Roshi

Still not seeing the problem with this~

Yeah. There's an argument to be made in Chi-Chi being stronger than King Chapa, who, at the 22nd TB, Kame-sennin considered a master and feared for Goku to face. At the 23rd TB, while King Chapa was knocked unconscious in one light karate-chop to the neck, Chi-Chi took a kiai that Goku didn't hold back enough and got back up with little damage.

[p123]

Hmm...

Wouldn't one argue that a light chop > air punch?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Hmm...

Wouldn't one argue that a light chop > air punch?

IMO, the kiai punch is artistically shown to be more impactful than a light chop. Piccolo says that it looks similar to one of the Mazoku's techniques and then there's this.

Chapter: 171, P10.4
Kame-sennin: “He didn’t do nothing...Goku probably pumped his fist with stupendous force…The shockwave-like thing created then blew the girl away before she had time to avoid it…”

[Rocketman]

ChiChi effortlessly swats Baby-infested Goten aside, something Vegeta was unable to do later.

Therefore, ChiChi > GT Vegeta > GT Gohan >/= Mystic Gohan > the rest of Z except Vegetto and the couple higher forms of Buu.

[CatouttaHell]

ChiChi effortlessly swats Baby-infested Goten aside, something Vegeta was unable to do later.

Therefore, ChiChi > GT Vegeta > GT Gohan >/= Mystic Gohan > the rest of Z except Vegetto and the couple higher forms of Buu.

The Goten she swatted away was probably more powerful than the Goten that overpowered SSjin Vegeta too.

Goten didn't transform at all from being possessed like Vegeta did, but neither did those Earthlings who were clearly abnormally powered up.

Base Goten-Baby could be rivaling SSjin Goten since Baby was rivaling SSjin Goten.

Chichi > SSjin Goten >= Base Goten-Baby > Base Goten >= SSjin Vegeta > Base Vegeta > Base Gohan >= Pure Boo going by GT logic.

Also I completely forgot that the humans climbed Karin Tower before the 23rd Budokai, so I retract my MOUNTAIN TRAINING.

They probably had some great Ki training that Goku didn't get, which would explain the massive increases.

They got trained better than Goku by God and Kaio-sama so there's precedence for this.

Tenshinhan, Kuririn, and Yamucha all brought complex new Ki techniques (Yamucha's even shocked God) with them and were suggested multiple times to be able to sense Ki.

But why aren't those numbers correct, and why is there no "thought behind them"...? Granted, I'm not reading every post here, but if you actually want to engage with your fellow fans in a discussion about this stuff (I don't know if you genuinely do, or if you just want to piss into the wind), then you're going to actually need to provide some context and reasoning for this kind of stuff.

So what's wrong with the numbers? Do you simply disagree on principle? Why? What about the books (and which books, in particular?) make you think this way? Would this hold true for any other series and its guides? Is it just the particular authors, both of the series itself and of its respective guide books?

Maybe you've said it before. Maybe you haven't. I don't know. All I'm reading is this right here, much like plenty of other folks reading the thread.

Posting up a series of images and some quotes isn't a response -- if you want to continue posting, you're going to need to use that magical word: "discussion". Add something valuable. All I see is a combination of back-handed comments and sarcasm from a lot of you battle power folks, and that's just not welcome. At all.

Sorry about my rudeness.

I was trying to point out that the numbers in a guidebook don't really matter that much if there's strong manga evidence against them.

It's not surprising, I doubt the guidebook creators cared that much about Battle Powers. Certainly they didn't care enough to analyse the manga and consider all of the statements and feats for a few Battle Powers that only consist of 1/100th of the total information they were putting out in them.

They're alright for what they are but a great many of them are just flat-out wrong for those reasons unfortunately IMO.

[Kirby456]

23rd Budokai Tienshinhan>King Piccolo....... stated Goku (Weights) much stronger then before and Tienshinhan was dominating him. What contradicts that? only V jump....

[p123]

COH has told me that a guy named Metal4ever from Neoseeker , thought of the ingenious plan to just make the Farmer a 1 instead of a 5. When one does that, the entire show makes a lot more sense. You can use Goku at 10, being 10x a normal strong human being, and it makes everything applicable.

[Rocketman]

So he's going to ignore the very first listed power level ever to make his bullshit numbers fit better.

*slow claps*

[Kaboom]

Ignoring the numbers actually listed and given within the story itself? ...How does THAT happen?