Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kirby456]

1 would make more sense but 5 is whats read of the scouter to me scouter readings are 100% and indisputable and are facts.

[p123]

IMO, the kiai punch is artistically shown to be more impactful than a light chop. Piccolo says that it looks similar to one of the Mazoku's techniques and then there's this.

I would agree with that PD. Chi Chi > Chapa-o seems likely.

So he's going to ignore the very first listed power level ever to make his bullshit numbers fit better.

Well, there not really my bullshit numbers. They are Toriyama's bullshit numbers. Lol.

Ignoring the numbers actually listed and given within the story itself? ...How does THAT happen?

I never seen you do a Dragonball power level list, so your probably unaware, but the scouter numbers cannot match the statements in Dragonball. They are mathematical impossibility. You should try one out sometime, you will see.

[Kaboom]

I never seen you do a Dragonball power level list, so your probably unaware, but the scouter numbers cannot match the statements in Dragonball. They are mathematical impossibility.

I've mentioned this before, but the best way to approach it is to realize that early Dragon Ball was not all about Ki yet; Ki-based techniques were more of a novelty and not the primary deciding factor in battles. So given that power level numbers are merely a measurement of Ki, and not the physical attributes which most battles centered around until roughly the King Piccolo era, the numbers listed at the beginning of the 'Z' portion can safely be accepted and taken as a face-value starting point, without having to worry about minutiae from before such a system was even crafted.

In short, "numbers don't apply for that part of the story."

That's certainly a better approach than actually just ignoring or rewriting the actual listed and stated numbers from the manga itself. I don't think I've even totally wrapped my head around hearing that, yet...

You should try one out sometime, you will see.

I've considered doing such a "take everything in Dragon Ball to be a power level statement just to see what you end up with" list in the past, but haven't gotten around to it primarily due to lack of interest. But because of the reasons I've explained above, I'm not concerned about if or how they'd match up to the real Raditz-and-beyond levels from the manga.

[Kirby456]

In this list ill place the farmers bp was 1 not 5 and Gokus bp wwas 8-10 like P123 said. Not i dont believe this its just a trial list.

Part 1.

Videl-3

Mr Satan-2.83

Pilaf Saga
Master Roshi-13
Goku-7
Yamcha-6
Krillin-5
Bear Thief-4
Rabbit Mobsters-1.50
Average Human-1
Shu-0.93
Oolong-0.91
Bulma-0.89
Emperor Pilaf-0.63
Puar-0.50

21st Budokai
Goku-13
Master Roshi-13
Nam-12
Goku-11
Giran-10
Krillin-9
Yamcha-8

General White Saga
Goku-14
Major Metilatron-13
Android 8-13
Ninja Murasaki-9.50
General White-8.50
Colonel Silver-7

General Blue Saga
Octopus-17
Goku-15
Pirate Robot-14
General Blue-12
Krillin-9.50

Commander Red Saga
Goku after Korin training-23
Mercenary Tao-21
Goku-16
Bora-10
Captain Yellow-1.25
Upa-0.34

Part 2 coming soon i would like to here everyones thoughts.

[p123]

That looks pretty damn reasonable Kirby.

If you can either make Farmer a 1, or just accept that he happens to be a godly human lol, it really does make things workable. There's only a couple of real problems with DB, that are still workable, but not too bad.

Goku Pre Karin Training - Post Karin Training. Stated to be many times stronger. If this happens, it causes massive problems.

Tambourine being many times stronger than Cymbal .

Piccolo Daimao ( Old ) using less than half his power to decimate 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai Son Goku.

And finally, Roshi's Battle Power of 139.


See the whole thing Toriyama IMO, is trying to potray with the list of...


Tenshinhan 250
Kuririn 206
Yamucha 177
Roshi 139


Is just hey guys, those guys surpassed Roshi just like I said rememeber? Problem is, if this is Roshi's Full Power, the one we didn't get to see but was talked about when he fought Tenshinhan at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, it becomes a mathematical impossibility.

Why? Because, the gaps between Piccolo Daimao, and the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai powers are said to be very,very massive.

Let's take a look at what I mean.


Let's say Roshi at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai is 139 like the scouter says, which I feel is what Toriyama is implying.




Son Goku 140
Tenshinhan 140
Muten Roshi 139


Seems reasonable. Now what happens next? Piccolo Daimao ( Old ) comes and beats the ever living crap out of a 140 Son Goku. The type of beating he put on Goku was crazy, probably one of the widest gaps in the series.

From my perspective , that's a Son Goku 140 - Picccolo 200 gap at minimum. That would put Piccolo's full power at 500 . Which is crazy huh?

But we are in Dragonball, let's say we really, really squeeze the numbers tight, and put 40% Piccolo at 160.

Even at 160, Piccolo's full power would be 400. And this is when he's old! When he becomes young again, he is supposed to have powered up a good deal. Which would put Piccolo Young probably at 500. Which is way to high, considering 250 Tenshinhan > 23rd Tenshinhan > Piccolo Daimaio ( Young ).


So as you can see, we have some serious issues.


I found a bit of a loophole to make Roshi work.

I have Roshi using 4 possible forms. Base form, which is what we generally see. His Semi Buff form, which we was suggested by the anime when he fought Tenshinhan. His Buff form, which we would have never seen, this would have been the power he would have buffed up to , when they were talking about him not using full power against Tenshinhan. And then finally, the Super Buff form. The one he used to blow up the mountain and the moon.

If we use Roshi's Super Buff form at 139, things become a bit more workable, but like I said, it's still not perfect. We have to tone down the many times, and the less than half power numbers.

The only thing I'm missing is probably Initial Son Goku ( Tail ) > Initial Son Goku ( W/0 ). At the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, Son Goku implies he has gained power from his tail regrowing, which would mean, when he lost his tail, he probably lost power. It seems like a headache to have to do, so I didn't include it, but maybe one day I will.

Here's my list. I did what I could to make everything work, and not for nothing, it looks pretty damn good.






Dragonballs Saga




Bear Bandit 5

Kuririn 8

Yamucha 9

Gyuumao 15

Muten Roshi 20
~ Super Buff 70

Son Goku 10
~ Oozaru 100






21st Tenkaichi Budokai





Orin Temple Bullies 10

Yamucha 14

Giran 15

Kuririn 16

Namu 17

Jackie Chun 20
~ Buff 70

Son Goku 20
~ Oozaru 200






Red Ribbon Saga ( Muscle Tower )






Ninja Murasaki 16

Sergeant Metallic 18

Son Goku 20

Android 8 25






Red Ribbon Saga ( Part 2 )




Bora 15

Kuririn 16

General Blue 18

Son Goku 22

Tao Pai Pai 30

Son Goku ( Post Karin Training ) 36

Karin 75






Baba Saga



Dracula Man 10

Invisible Man 12

Yamucha 14

Kuririn 16

Mummy 22

( Mystery 4th Fighter ) 24

Devil Man 26

Gohan 35

Muten Roshi 20
~ Buff 35

Son Goku 36





22nd Tenkaichi Budokai



Chaozu 38

Yamucha 39

Kuririn 40

Tsuru 55

Jackie Chun 46
~ Buff ( Suppressed ) 60
~ Buff 69

Son Goku ( Match Level ) 50
~ Battle Level 70

Tenshinhan 70






Piccolo Daimao Saga



Cymbal 45

Yajirobe 50

Tambourine 60

Tenshinhan 70

Son Goku ( Match Level ) 50
~ Battle Level 70

Karin 75

Drum 85

Piccolo Daimao ( Old ) 150

Piccolo Daimao ( Young ) 200

Goku ( Super Sacred Water ) 205

Mr. Popo 300

Kami 450





23rd Tenkaichi Budokai



Yajirobe 100

Chaozu 120

Cyborg Tao 140

Yamucha 160

Kuririn 180

Tenshinhan 220

Shen 350

Piccolo Ma-Junior 600

Son Goku ( Weighted ) 220
~ W/o Weights 300
~ Full Power 600

[Kirby456]

Thank you P123.

I've reviewd your dragon ball pls and have to say there very good except for a few things i disagree with.

Yajirobe should be 70.
Giran should be abit stronger then Krillin at the 21st Budokai he took a lot of hits from Goku and got one block and wasint damaged at all.
Id say Bora>Murasaki or equal.
I like your level for General Blue,Akkuman,
Goku should be stronger then Tienshinhan at the 23rd Budokai he was winning the fight.
Mecha Tao imo should be > to Krillin and Yamcha
Tienshinhan at the 23rd Budokai should be a bit stronger then Weighted Goku.
Master Shen=350 seems way to high.
Were are the levels for Buyon,General White,Piano,King Castle guard,Giran when fighting Tambourine,Officier black i know there minor characters just adding them in.

Overal great list!.

[Rocketman]

Giran should be abit stronger then Krillin at the 21st Budokai he took a lot of hits from Goku and got one block and wasint damaged at all.

He doesn't have to be. Giran is a big beefy dragon guy, and in early DB size still matters.

[Kirby456]

Thats true but i like to believe he is.

[p123]

Yajirobe should be 70.

Me and COH came to the conclusion that

Goku Battle Level > Tambourine > Goku Match Level = Yajirobe > Cymbal


Is the most logical chain. If you want, I'd like to hear your point with evidence why that's not so, displaying evidence and all. I'm always open to changing my POVs, but I feel that's best for now. I would like to be convinced though so by all means.

Giran should be abit stronger then Krillin at the 21st Budokai he took a lot of hits from Goku and got one block and wasint damaged at all.

Like I mentioned before, I didn't include the Goku Tail and W/o Tail variation, but luckily I did so on my list on NeoSeeker. It would look like this...

Goku W/o Tail 18 Goku W/ Tail 20

So considering that, Giran fought Goku W/o Tail, and immediately quit once he seen Goku W/ Tail knock the brick wall down. Also in the filler , which I consider pretty much canon, at least in the early part of DBZ, we have an interesting fight between Yamucha and Giran. It showed Giran to be superior, but not by a huge amount.

Also, Jackie Chun gives respect to both Kuririn and Namu, yet none to Giran. Considering that, Kuririn and Namu, should be a step above Yamucha and Giran.

Essentially.

Jackie Chun = Son Goku W/ Tail > Son Goku W/o Tail >= Namu >= Kuririn >= Giran >= Yamucha

Everyone is pretty close here obviously.

Don't forget, that Jackie Chun and Goku had not gone full out until they fought each other...

Id say Bora>Murasaki or equal.

I originally had Bora much stronger, I generally think the later the story progresses, the stronger the people are. However, tanking feats are very subjective in Dragonball. Generally people who are big, are potrayed as uberly strong, even though they may not be superior to a less imposing character.

Considering that, I decided to go the route that...

Giran = Bora = Gyuumao

For some reason, I got tied to this type of logic, and I just like it personally. It doesn't mean it's any better than any other's POV, but it's something that I liked, as well as plausible.

Plus, I used some evidence , which is non canon, but I didn't see a problem with it.

Bora vs Yamucha in Movie 3 I believe, displays a similar fight to Yamucha vs Giran. Yamucha has a bit of a speed advantage over the both of them, but the other is stronger. So I used Movie 3's fight of Bora vs Yamucha to really zone in on where I wanted to place him...

I like your level for General Blue,Akkuman,

Thank you. I liked Akkuman being a couple of shades below Tao Pai Pai. I think Tao was a ridiculous beast, and wasn't surpassed until Goku Post Karin and Gohan...

Mecha Tao imo should be > to Krillin and Yamcha

This is actually a character I don't feel too comfortable with. Please explain.

Master Shen=350 seems way to high.

I don't see why?

Kami 450
Shen 350
Mr. Popo 300

Suits me . I do not feel any of the Z Senshi besides Piccolo and Goku ever surpassed Mr/ Popo until they got God's training. And I think Shen should definitely be superior to Mr. Popo, so I don't see a reason why I would change that?

Were are the levels for Buyon,General White,Piano,King Castle guard,Giran when fighting Tambourine,Officier black i know there minor characters just adding them in.

I put as many character as possible into my levels, but even I have a limit. There are just certain characters I don't feel comfortable enough to give a rating to as the evidence is not plentiful. I generally need at least two instances of power to be able to make a decent guess. With only one vague reference, I can't be accurate, thus I don't do it.

Overal great list!.

Thank you!

[Kirby456]

1. The reason why i cant see Goku fighting at match level is cause of this http://www.mangareader.net/105-2787-9/d ... r-138.html Goku thinks Yajirobe is Tambourine and is screaming and is pissed and Goku says "this wont be easy" and has a serious face on the whole time and he Yajirobe get the same number of hits and Goku looks the exact same when hes punching Tambourine as with Yajirobe http://www.mangareader.net/105-2790-8/d ... r-141.html also here Yajirobe isint shocked at all when Goku is beating on Tambourine he gets shocked when he thinks Tambourine killed Goku wouldint you if someone close to your level was killed by a opponent stronger and was coming after you next.
2.I'm pretty sure Yamcha and Krillin want to double team Tao with Tiens help so i cant imagine him being that weak.
3.But Shen was a lot weaker then 50% Roshi and didint go through the same hard training Tien did and Tien was a lot stronger before + Shen didint climb Korin tower or any of that if he was as strong as Tien why didint he enter the tournament himself?.
No problem ill post the rest of my list soon.

[p123]

You know what, I'm going to agree with you on Yajirobe / Goku / Cymbal / Tambourine issue. Perhaps it's just funky writing, and Cymbal isn't all that much weaker than Tambourine. He just happened to catch Yajirobe off guard perhaps? I don't know, it's a weird set of logic, but yea I think I'm going to switch.

I think you may be right on Cyborg Tao vs Yamucha and Kuririn.



I don't understand what your saying about Shen. Shen is god, just in a human body. He's still massively strong, to a point where he's tanking Yamucha's best attack.

Roshi's top power is at 69, his Super Buff form, which is not a fighting form, just a beefed up form for ki blasts like USSJ2 , is not a level he can fight at.

So Tenshinhan is at 220, and Roshi is at 69. Their top fighting powers at the 23rd Budokai.

[Kaboom]

Kami possessing a normal human and adopting the "Shen" identity is another good example of the concept I was talking about earlier with early-DB power levels. Physical abilities and Ki powers during that portion of the story did not always go hand-in-hand.

Goku's Battle Power at the start of the story was only 10, barely double that of the average adult human male. But his Saiyan physiology gave him strength and durability way, WAY better than that of any normal human, to the point where he can make massive leaps in the air, sustain bullets and axes to the head and get nothing but bumps, and crush boulders with his bare hands. Daizenshuu #7 even specifically notes the distinction, mentioning his physical durability as something extra in addition to his power level.

But then take someone, like, Roshi. He's a venerable old sennin, and no doubt has Ki-based abilities way, WAY greater than Goku's even as far as the 21st Budokai when the fought in the finals. But he may be somewhat held back by his frail, centuries-old body, to the point where someone like Goku with a lower power level but vastly superior physical attributes could give him a serious challenge.

Kami possessing the human is another example. This nameless guy is just some ordinary shmoe who looks like he spends most of his average day hunched forward at an office desk, to be optimistic. But when Kami popped himself in there, his level of Ki was so amazing that it allowed him to be a serious contender against Yamcha, Piccolo, and so forth, even despite being held back somewhat by the inferior body (I seem to remember him mentioning that).

[p123]

Don't forget Kuririn and Goku moving that boulder and Muten Roshi appearing as he couldn't even though Roshi was the superior out of the bunch.

[In Brightest Day]

Goku's Battle Power at the start of the story was only 10, barely double that of the average adult human male. But his Saiyan physiology gave him strength and durability way, WAY better than that of any normal human, to the point where he can make massive leaps in the air, sustain bullets and axes to the head and get nothing but bumps, and crush boulders with his bare hands. Daizenshuu #7 even specifically notes the distinction, mentioning his physical durability as something extra in addition to his power level.

So, how did Yamcha and presumably Kuririn become superhuman prior to them even being trained by Roshi? In their first appearances they're already both capable of doing things normal people can't.

[Kaboom]

So, how did Yamcha and presumably Kuririn become superhuman prior to them even being trained by Roshi? In their first appearances they're already both capable of doing things normal people can't.

Point duly noted. But neither of them were still anywhere near as capable as Goku.

[Kirby456]

Ohhhh sorry i thought you were reffering to the Crane Hermit i agree then sorry.

[CatouttaHell]

So, how did Yamcha and presumably Kuririn become superhuman prior to them even being trained by Roshi? In their first appearances they're already both capable of doing things normal people can't.

Yamucha probably had some Ki knowledge as the Roga Fufu Ken was a Ki-based technique IIRC.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Yamucha probably had some Ki knowledge as the Roga Fufu Ken was a Ki-based technique IIRC.

Doubtful. Daiz 4 classifies it as a "combination-type physical martial arts technique" because it unleashes more than one blow on the opponent, and Daiz 7 has this to say:

Rouga Fuu-Fuu Ken
[rouga fuu-fuu ken; lit. "Wolf-Fang Hurricane Fist"]
First Appears: Chapter 8
Category: Physical Martial Arts
User(s): Yamcha
Characteristics: A style of kenpou which the bandit Yamcha invented on his own. He moves just like a wolf trying to bite its opponent to death with sharp fangs. It's a rapid-fire attack which uses punches and kicks, letting loose attacks which stress speed, then catching the opponent off guard to smash them with a single powerful, two-handed blow. In the land which he had marked off as his territory, he ends up in a battle with Goku and the others when he tries to take away their money and capsules, and uses this technique to knock out an empty-stomached Goku.

[p123]

Well Yamucha and Kuririn both essentially learned how to do ki attacks on their own.

[uzuni]

What if we completely disregard the Farmer's 5 and attribute it to the destructive power of his shotgun rather than to him? Instead, placing him closer to the turtle's 0.01? This would make things much easier for the most part, would it not?