The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Kaboom]

Oob isn't "suppressed" in the usual sense. He's exactly the same way as Gohan was when he was little. Pitifully weak when normal, his power surges when he gets mad, but he needs training to be able to access it willingly. Whatever amount he showed at the Tournament was enough for Goku to confirm this. He realized Oob's potential and then set to training him so he could live up to it.

[Rocketman]

Alright, I kinda lost on what's being argued here.

Is it "Uub's true power is Kid Buu"? Because I agree. Is it "Kid Buu/Uub's true power is stronger than everybody in the tournament"? Because I also agree (Gohan didn't compete).

If it's "Goku is super-duper strong in base because he takes hits from Uub", I don't agree.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, the argument is that "Oob showed actual Pure Boo-level power at the tournament, thus base Goku is already Pure Boo-level himself because he survived." Out of some misguided urge to make sense of GT, I think.

Maybe he DID show small glimpses of Pure Boo-level power when he got mad, I dunno. The last thing he did was use a Kiai on Goku, which might not necessarily hurt him that much. But Goku could merely have survived because of P.I.S. more than anything else, kind of like how Vegeta managed to survive against Pure Boo. Which is a helluva lot more believable than Goku becoming 400+ times stronger in only ten years' worth of MOUNTAIN TRAINING.

But with how small, self-contained, and, well... not planet-destroying-level the fight was (there was zero collateral damage besides some broken tiles), I sincerely doubt anyone actually put out that much power. That's SSj3-level output we're talking about. If it were actually meant to be that level of fight, I think there'd have been a whole lot more planet-shaking goin' on.

[Fox666]

A little off-topic, but I feel like asking: why it looks like every single post of certain members must include some mention of "base form vs Super Saiyan?" Is that some kind of fetish?

[FNF]

Agreed. Oob meeting Goku's expectations, is really hard to twist and not as fact. This issue is a lot more clear than Base Saiyans > Piccolo.

Being someone who isn't completely convinced by Dabura's statement (due to their being so many different statements suggesting different things about Piccolo's strength), I can agree with this completely. It's pretty clear imo.

Goku talks about Mr Buu as if he was complete trash and even suggests that he would be compared to Goten if he had continued training hard.

From the start Goku thought that Uub ~ Kid Buu;
Goku: “He’s the one…While I’ve been training on my own, I’ve been waiting all this time for that kid to enter the tournament…[ ] ]…10 years ago, when that outrageously bad Majin Boo died, I made a wish…That this time, he be reborn as a good guy, so we could fight one-on-one…Apparently old man Enma Daio heard me, and pulled some strings on my behalf…”

Then later on;
Goku: “Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power.”

That basically means that his angry burst = true ability = Kid Buu.

Also why would Krillin and Gohan react like this if he was only a < Freeza tier fighter?
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding…!?”
Gohan: “Wh-what is that kid…!?”

[p123]

Yea, surprisingly, the Base Saiyan > Piccolo debate, may be settled by the End of Z stuff.

Goku expects Oob to be the strongest, and Oob meets his expectations. It doesn't get a lot more clear than that really. Good Boo now being trash is insane. But it follows the Buu Saga. Piccolo became trash, and now freaking Good Boo is trash. Lol, Dragonball, geez.

[FNF]

The things that don't make sense about base Saiyans>Piccolo are the Piccolo>base Goten post RoSaT/Goten pre RoSaT~Gohan implications, they were all heavily suppressed so how could Dabura come to the conclusion that PuiPui>base Saiyans>Piccolo (Piccolo in particular has shown huge suppression capabilities) and Piccolo still being suggested to be somewhat useful against PuiPui/Dabura.

I think you can ignore Dabura's statement quite easily because of numerous suggestions which suggest otherwise. In comparison to the base Goku/Uub situation, the base Saiyans>Piccolo situation is like trying to solve the fucking Da Vinci Code xD

[Rocketman]

I choose to believe that Kami's divine ki makes Piccolo unsuited for their needs, since they can't use Kibito or Supreme Kai's energy either.

[FNF]

I choose to believe that Kami's divine ki makes Piccolo unsuited for their needs, since they can't use Kibito or Supreme Kai's energy either.

I used to prefer that theory but now I just think it was his suppression habit which makes incompetent Ki sensors (Babidi/Dabura/Kaioshin/Kibito) unable to sense his hidden power.

[p123]

Well the Kami ki not being used for Buu Meter is not suggested. So personally I wouldn't go with that.


It seems somehow, that Kaioshin and Badibi, both have the same estimates on the Saiyans. I don't know why, and haven't been able to put a decent theory up for that, but they are definitely tied together somehow.



Kaioshin, at the tournament assumes he cannot beat what would logically be Super Saiyan Goku. He's either 1 or 2 , from the rumors, and Kaioshin doesn't feel he is superior to that, and the reason he is at the tournament is to get help from these superior Saiyans.


Thing is, Kaioshin didn't realize just how superior they were. AT must have lost his crackers, or something, but decided hey I'm going to have the Saiyans stronger than everyone, and frig it, I'll make their base stronger than damn near everything too why not I'm so tired of DB I'll put out anything and finish this series up etc etc.


So... Kaioshin thinks like this...



Pocus > Super Saiyans > Kaioshin



Dabura, probably cancels out Kaioshin's SSJ2 level powered magic evidenced against Fat Boo, and SSJ2 Gohan, and his actual power level is not that high.


Something along these lines, it's a really difficult issue to explain, and AT definitely did not make this easy on us, but I could explain it fairly easy, just ask some reasonable questions, and I'll keep responding.

[Kaboom]

What doesn't make sense about this supposed "fact" of Piccolo < Base Saiyans is that he spent the entire prior arc not trailing too far behind and even at one point surpassing their Super Saiyan forms, even as far as the Cell Games. To suggest he's suddenly so drastically eclipsed merely by their base forms throws up a big "DOES NOT COMPUTE" flag.

(Especially when, as FNF pointed out, the reasons behind such a supposition are so sketchy, if not downright flawed. Kaioshin and all the heroes were suppressing their Ki to 0 off on the rock. Dabra and Bobbidi could NOT have sensed them. Heck, they obviously CAN'T sense Ki the same way others can, as shown at several other points later. The only way Bobbidi and Dabra could have detected everyone, much less gotten hint of the "marvelous energy" within the Saiyans (their full SSj2/SSj3 power, if you ask me), is by some other form of magic-based clairvoyance. They ARE both magic-users, after all.)

Same with this new supposed "fact" of Base Goku < Mister Boo. Even assuming Boo would have been only as strong as Goku's SSj2 back 10 years ago... that means Goku would have somehow gotten 100x or more stronger from, if I may borrow Rocketman's pet term, "MOUNTAIN TRAINING." A 100x increase is a big freakin' deal. You don't see that kind of increase without something crazy like massive repeated healing boosts one after the other, or undergoing some sort of crazy potential unlocking, or what have-you.

There's good reason for being skeptical of these so-called "facts," especially when there's other explanations that come off as less of a stretch.

In the long run, things ended up a little sloppy, and there's a multitude of ways to make sense of it.

[p123]

Agreed. AT probably should have not went the Base Saiyans > Piccolo route. What's even worse, is he took it even further than that. Kaioshin , who is worlds above Piccolo, is mere fodder to the Base Saiyans as well. AT was probably just like eff it, I'll make the Saiyans complete gods that dwarf gods or something.

He certainly didn't seem to be thinking that during the Cell Games when Piccolo did pretty damn well against the Cell Juniors. He probably should have just ended the series at the Cell Games, when things were more reasonable.

[Kaboom]

Exactly. Hence why it's good, like I mentioned, that the arc is JUUUUST messy and vague enough overall that we fans can weasel our way around "implications" like that in good conscience.

[FNF]

I just think that it is down to opinion at the end of day.

There is evidence and 'debunks' for both sides of the argument but base Saiyans>Piccolo isn't any where near as factual as a lot of people have came to believe imo.

[p123]

Yea, he definitely made enough room for people to do what they do . I think it's intentional, the Buu Saga has one of the highest re read values of any saga, just to try to figure it all out!

I'm an obsessive power level guy, and it's taken me years to really get comfortable with what the heck is going on. Years of looking it over, debating back and forth, theorizing how the who's the whats, and only now do I feel confident in what I see . That's insane.

[Kaboom]

I'm an obsessive power level guy, and it's taken me years to really get comfortable with what the heck is going on. Years of looking it over, debating back and forth, theorizing how the who's the whats, and only now do I feel confident in what I see . That's insane.

I got you beat there, broski. I've been confident in most of my Boo arc views ever since I started working with PLs to begin with! Perhaps I'm just easier to please.

Anyway, I think we should get back on-topic, with one of those whatchamacallits... a versus matchup, that's it.



How about this: Saiyan-arc Kuririn vs Tenshinhan.

Their official battle powers are given as 1770 for Kuririn and 1830 for Tenshinhan. The two are practically equals, with Ten having only a slight edge. Yet Kuririn managed to perform and hold up much better against Nappa than his 3-eyed compatriot. Was that a fluke, or does Kuririn actually have what it takes in skill or agility or what-not to overcome his minuscule power disadvantage and pull off a win?

Obviously, Kienzan and Kikoho shenanigans are barred.

[p123]

Plot Device. Kuririn seems to play into the secondary role better than Tenshinhan .

Tenshinhan at the 23rd Budokai, is suggested to be able to probably one shot Kuririn. He one shots someone that both Yamucha and Kuririn find to be a threat in Cyborg Tao.

I personally feel the numerical power levels have Kuririn topping out at 1,500, since that was his power level on Namek, logically that should be his max against Nappa, not including ki amplified blasts of course.

Ten should probably still maintain a similar gap to what he had at the 23rd Budokai, and should be head and shoulders above Kuririn. Kuririn doesn't finally surpass Ten until he gets his Guru unlock...

[Kaboom]

I personally feel the numerical power levels have Kuririn topping out at 1,500, since that was his power level on Namek, logically that should be his max against Nappa, not including ki amplified blasts of course.

Well, he wouldn't have to use full effort against a nameless weakling Freeza goon. Also, since Gohan's power during the Saiyan fight was about 900-something, if they've both improved slightly during the past month then the "around 1500" figure for them from Zarbon may have even been an average. Given all that, I don't think there's any reason to doubt Kuririn's 1770 level.

But it's true that we are still in the short-lived era here where PL numbers could be drastically amplified by using attacks, instead of merely by "powering up." That could really affect this kind of stuff.

[p123]

I doubt that is likely. I mean, I won't use full power, but I'll use 96% of my power during a power up, seems like a twisting kind of logic. Your better off with a , the scouter says AROUND 1,500 or whatever the line is type of logic, if you want a better clash. 1,770 is around 1,500, so I wouldn't have much to say if you responded with that, but Kuririn should def be at full power, as well as every character every time they fight someone, unless suggested otherwise.

Wasn't Gohan 981 his suppressed power?

Gohan's increase, would probably be from a zenkai or something, but you could be right training wise. I prefer the zenkai logic, and neither really powering up from such low tier training. But could go either way.

Either way, Tenshinhan was shown to be superior, so much so, they even have him and Piccolo have a sort of face off on who's stronger. Piccolo stronger obviously, but not by tremendous amounts.

[Rocketman]

Krillin vs Tien

Krillin's only hope is that he's still close enough to Tien to luck out on an attack or combo and gain the upper hand. Otherwised, he's outclassed in every sense. It would be a great fight, but Krillin would eventually lose.



Vegeta vs Zarbon and Dodoria

Vegeta is such a opportunistic slimeball at this point in the series, I think if they make any mistakes, he'll immediately drive the wedge in and cut them down.

Don't forget, they're also under direct orders from Freeza to bring Vegeta back alive. I think that would be the bit of hesitation/holding back/etc that Vegeta would need.