The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[FNF]

Krillin vs Tien;

I honestly don't think Krillin should be too far ahead of Yamcha and he didn't do that well against a Saibamen. His only move which affected the Saibamen was his Kamehameha.

My numbers are;
Yamcha- 1,300
Krillin- 1,500 (I have him gaining a little power in his image training vs Gohan on the way to Namek making him >=1500)
Tien- 1,890
Piccolo- 2,200

Piccolo and Tien had a clear superiority in the Saibamen fight.

[Fox666]

Why don't you use the official battle powers?

I mean, I can do it too and say that Vegeta has a battle power of 45,000 while fighting Recoom (ignoring the official 30,000 record) and thus he should be able to defeat Nail who is at 42,000. But what is the point with made-up battle powers?

Well, he wouldn't have to use full effort against a nameless weakling Freeza goon. Also, since Gohan's power during the Saiyan fight was about 900-something, if they've both improved slightly during the past month then the "around 1500" figure for them from Zarbon may have even been an average. Given all that, I don't think there's any reason to doubt Kuririn's 1770 level.

Vegeta referred to Goku and Piccolo as "guys with battle powers slightly over 1,000 at most" so I don't really think you should go strict with that kind of vague statement, especially coming from someone who has 10 times more than that.

Not to mention that Kuririn could be wearing his weighted cloth, so you really shouldn't look forward the "1,500" figure.

[FNF]

Because the Daiz numbers are garbage and are far from official.

Nail's pl being 42,000 is in the manga. Vegeta's pl being over 30,000 is stated in the manga. Krillin's pl being >= 1,500 post image training is stated in the manga. Those are the real official numbers.

As for the Daiz, Nappa being 4,000 (MAX) is contradicted by the manga. Piccolo being 3,500 (that close to Nappa) is contradicted by the manga. Krillin being 1,770(vs the Saibamen) is contradicted by the manga.
I'm not even going to get into how bad the Daiz numbers for the original Dragonball arc are.

[CatouttaHell]

Why don't you use the official battle powers?

I mean, I can do it too and say that Vegeta has a battle power of 45,000 while fighting Recoom (ignoring the official 30,000 record) and thus he should be able to defeat Nail who is at 42,000. But what is the point with made-up battle powers?

The official Battle Powers are wrong. Any source that says Nappa can stomp Piccolo while being 1.14x stronger than him but can fight evenly with Goku despite being 2x weaker than him shouldn't even be taken seriously.

[p123]

FNF, you are using similar numbers to me...

This was an interesting method I used....

Yamucha 1,300
Kuririn 1,500 ( As stated on Namek by scouter reading )
Tenshinhan 1,800
Piccolo 2,300

Now remember , what we got the saga before...

Piccolo ( Post Fight Weighted ) 329
Tenshinhan 250
Kuririn 206
Yamucha 177


In the scouter readings...

Yamucha is 86% of Kuririn
Kuririn is 82% of Tenshinhan
Tenshinhan is 76% of Piccolo


Now how does my Vegeta Saga numbers look?


Yamucha is 86% of Kuririn
Kuririn is 83% of Tenshinhan
Tenshinhan is 78% of Piccolo


I like to keep the gaps as close as possible, and I think it came out rather nicely...

Piccolo's scouter number 329 was his weighted power, post Raditz fight of course, but perhaps, the gap between himself and the humans had been lessened due to Piccolo having to train Gohan and get him up to speed.

As we can see, Piccolo apparently blows the humans out of the water on Kaio's planet, considering his power is probably in the 200-300k region due to Kami probably only being a 2-2.5x boost, ( Based on Hypothetical Kamiccolo might be able to beat 530 k Freeza ) , and Tenshinhan at best is 100k, ( if you want to use the multi form halving his power in the anime filler vs Burter and Jeice ) .

Plus one of the things I like to do, is use nice even round numbers. Something Toriyama does not do, but I feel, it's best to make the numbers at least somewhat pretty. Lol.

[FNF]

FNF, you are using similar numbers to me...

This was an interesting method I used....

Yamucha 1,300
Kuririn 1,500 ( As stated on Namek by scouter reading )
Tenshinhan 1,800
Piccolo 2,300

Now remember , what we got the saga before...

Piccolo ( Post Fight Weighted ) 329
Tenshinhan 250
Kuririn 206
Yamucha 177


In the scouter readings...

Yamucha is 86% of Kuririn
Kuririn is 82% of Tenshinhan
Tenshinhan is 76% of Piccolo


Now how does my Vegeta Saga numbers look?


Yamucha is 86% of Kuririn
Kuririn is 83% of Tenshinhan
Tenshinhan is 78% of Piccolo


I like to keep the gaps as close as possible, and I think it came out rather nicely...

Piccolo's scouter number 329 was his weighted power, post Raditz fight of course, but perhaps, the gap between himself and the humans had been lessened due to Piccolo having to train Gohan and get him up to speed.

As we can see, Piccolo apparently blows the humans out of the water on Kaio's planet, considering his power is probably in the 200-300k region due to Kami probably only being a 2-2.5x boost, ( Based on Hypothetical Kamiccolo might be able to beat 530 k Freeza ) , and Tenshinhan at best is 100k, ( if you want to use the multi form halving his power in the anime filler vs Burter and Jeice ) .

Plus one of the things I like to do, is use nice even round numbers. Something Toriyama does not do, but I feel, it's best to make the numbers at least somewhat pretty. Lol.

Post 1 week of Kaio's training I have;

Piccolo- 140,000
Tien- 100,000
Yamcha- 55,000

Yamcha is visibly the last out of Piccolo, Tien and himself to catch Bubbles so I think he gets the least out of the training so that means Piccolo was 1st to catch Bubbles so he got the most out of the 1 week at Kaio's and Tien got the most out of it after Piccolo and Yamcha and Chaotzu didn't get anywhere near as much out of it as Piccolo and Tien.

I think Piccolo gets larger improvements via the Nail merge than he does via the God merge at least that's what I think is implied because God was more of a fly compared to Piccolo at that point than what Nail was before they merged.

[p123]

You may be forgetting that, Kamiccolo ( Pre Nail ) only might be stronger than 530k Freeza.

This plays a factor because, Kami's boost for Piccolo, should be at least comparable to his boost to Piccolo in the Androids Saga.

Are you accounting for that as well?

[Fox666]

Because the Daiz numbers are garbage and are far from official.

I can also call the manga numbers garbage. In fact I could say the whole manga is garbage. "Garbage" is not a fair analysis.

Nail's pl being 42,000 is in the manga. Vegeta's pl being over 30,000 is stated in the manga.

You are wrong. Originally it was 20,000 in the manga, it was only corrected to 30,000 after the Daizenshuu included it.

Those are the real official numbers.

What makes them that real? It's not like the manga is written by an omnipotent presence. Prove of it is that Vegeta battle power dropped from 24,000 to 20,000 after fighting Zarbon.

It's Toriyama who created the manga, and probably also who estabilished the battle powers in the Daizenshuu guide. Or do you think the Daizenshuu would simply include random made-up values? Several official publications (i.e. V-Jump, SEG) use the same sources of the Daizenshuu, meaning that there is something behind it.

As for the Daiz, Nappa being 4,000 (MAX) is contradicted by the manga.

No matter what the fans think about Goku vs Nappa fight, the number behind Nappa is 4,000. It became clear the moment Nappa couldn't see Goku moving in front of his eyes while his battle power was still suppressed at 5,000.



If you think Nappa cannot fight someone with 8,000 like he did (he did?), that means the manga plot is dull, not that the Daizenshuu figure is a mistake.

Piccolo being 3,500 (that close to Nappa) is contradicted by the manga.

Nappa: "Namekian, your maximum battle power is lower than 3,500!" Sorry, I think I missed that part in the manga.

And "close to" is not an objective method of judgement.

[Fox666]

Why don't you use the official battle powers?I mean, I can do it too and say that Vegeta has a battle power of 45,000 while fighting Recoom (ignoring the official 30,000 record) and thus he should be able to defeat Nail who is at 42,000. But what is the point with made-up battle powers?

The official Battle Powers are wrong. Any source that says Nappa can stomp Piccolo while being 1.14x stronger than him but can fight evenly with Goku despite being 2x weaker than him shouldn't even be taken seriously.

SSJ2 Goku post-Senzu > Bootenks 2.5

You know how inappropriate and unworkable that kind of post is for a solid argument, don't you?

This plays a factor because, Kami's boost for Piccolo, should be at least comparable to his boost to Piccolo in the Androids Saga.

Not necessarily. We don't know for sure how fusion works. So we cannot predict what would happen.

[Kaboom]

Because the Daiz numbers are garbage and far from official.

The official Battle Powers are wrong.

Oh boy, this again.

[Fox666]

Sorry, my bad.

[FNF]

You may be forgetting that, Kamiccolo ( Pre Nail ) only might be stronger than 530k Freeza.

This plays a factor because, Kami's boost for Piccolo, should be at least comparable to his boost to Piccolo in the Androids Saga.

Are you accounting for that as well?

What I meant by post is that since the difference in power between Piccolo post Kaio's training and Nail is much, much smaller than the difference in power between Android arc Piccolo and God, the boost he received from Nail is far greater.

For example if Piccolo was 2 and God was 1.90, the multiplier would be faaaar greater than if Piccolo was 10 and God was 0.001.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Is refuting the official battle powers of the manga and the Daizenshuu the new craze for the battle power fan community now? Who are you to say that the numbers are wrong, as if it's "fact"? You're just an opinionated fan, not Toriyama or a member of the Sheuisha staff.

Seriously, guys, no offence, but get your head out of your asses. Your numbers don't fly for everyone. You can say that you don't agree with Kuririn's 1,770 (although I can't imagine why, since it's actually one of the Daizenshuu BPs that people don't seem to have trouble with), but don't just say that it's flat-out wrong, as if everyone shares the small-minded view as you.

[p123]

Kami boosting Piccolo should be the same regardless of time period IMO. That's the only logical way of doing things I would think...

[FNF]

Because the Daiz numbers are garbage and are far from official.

I can also call the manga numbers garbage. In fact I could say the whole manga is garbage. "Garbage" is not a fair analysis.

It makes far too many errors in terms of power levels to be taken as fact.

Nail's pl being 42,000 is in the manga. Vegeta's pl being over 30,000 is stated in the manga.

You are wrong. Originally it was 20,000 in the manga, it was only corrected to 30,000 after the Daizenshuu included it.

So why didn't Krillin's power level get corrected in the Kanzenban? It's because AT clearly didn't think he made a mistake in the manga. Remember Gohan>Krillin in the image training on the way to Namek so for Krillin to be 1,770 and Gohan to be >= 1,500 doesn't make any sense.

Those are the real official numbers.

What makes them that real? It's not like the manga is written by an omnipotent presence. Prove of it is that Vegeta battle power dropped from 24,000 to 20,000 after fighting Zarbon.
It's Toriyama who created the manga, and probably also who estabilished the battle powers in the Daizenshuu guide. Or do you think the Daizenshuu would simply include random made-up values? Several official publications (i.e. V-Jump, SEG) use the same sources of the Daizenshuu, meaning that there is something behind it.

Those numbers came straight from AT while there is no proof that the Daiz numbers came straight from AT. V-Jump is hardly credible either considering it has Vegeta in the 200,000's vs Freeza 1st fom yet in the manga he was shown to be roughly equal with him (530,000~) so you haven't proven anything.

As for the Daiz, Nappa being 4,000 (MAX) is contradicted by the manga.

No matter what the fans think about Goku vs Nappa fight, the number behind Nappa is 4,000. It became clear the moment Nappa couldn't see Goku moving in front of his eyes while his battle power was still suppressed at 5,000.



If you think Nappa cannot fight someone with 8,000 like he did (he did?), that means the manga plot is dull, not that the Daizenshuu figure is a mistake.

After Nappa powered up further against Goku, they actually had a relatively even fight;
http://i54.tinypic.com/689c76.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/2rzowg8.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/ejyd6g.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/avk9j4.jpg

So I guess fighters with a pl half of their opponent can fight evenly with them
What came 1st the manga or the Daiz? The manga.
What was most likely not written by AT? The pls in the Daiz.

Piccolo being 3,500 (that close to Nappa) is contradicted by the manga.

Nappa: "Namekian, your maximum battle power is lower than 3,500!" Sorry, I think I missed that part in the manga.

And "close to" is not an objective method of judgement.

So I guessed you missed the part where Piccolo was reduced to a state in a single elbow by the same Nappa who couldn't see Goku's movements at 5,000?;
http://i52.tinypic.com/e04sw9.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/2rcyk4y.jpg

Yeah Piccolo was totally at 3,500

[p123]

The most logical POV regarding the Z Senshi vs Nappa would be...



Nappa ( Vs Z Senshi ) > Gohan's Masenko = 2,800 > Ten's Kikoho > Piccolo > Tenshinhan > Kuririn > Yamucha > Saibamen = 1,200



Everything else is mere speculation.

[FNF]

as if everyone shares the small-minded view as you.

It's funny because I could say the exact same thing to people who have been breast fed the Daiz and consider it the ultimate source of information for Dragonball. I admit it's not all that bad (especially for the movies) but really? Tien fought Android 19? I think the staff who worked on the Daiz were far from incompetent but they were obviously far from as knowledgeable as what AT was when he was working on the manga. AT even said that he had forgotten tons about Dragonball while they were working on the Daiz(I think) so what makes you think there is anything worth relying on in the Daiz?

[Li'l Lemmy]

The official Battle Powers are wrong. Any source that says Nappa can stomp Piccolo while being 1.14x stronger than him but can fight evenly with Goku despite being 2x weaker than him shouldn't even be taken seriously.

Um... what?

Maybe I'm tardy to the party, here. But as far as I knew, it's only fanmade Battle Power numbers that are open to interpretation and discussion. If we don't take the actual, factual numbers that were given to us through official sources to be... well, actual and factual, then what solid basis do we have with which to come up with our own numbers to begin with? I always took the official figures to be vital to PWRLVL crunching, not arbitrary toss-away stuff to be ignored on a whim. o_O

I mean... that just me. But... yeah. Um...


~Da Lemmy

[Kaboom]

I think the problem here is the false assumption that there are set limits to what constitutes being able or unable to put up a fight. It's not nearly so precise a system, and there are always other factors besides the numbers.

Nappa at 4000 can survive against Goku at 8000 because he's insanely durable, tanking almost everything the other heroes had thrown at him. The only one of them who was even able to scratch him was Piccolo at 3500. There. No need to over-complicate that.

If by the time they reach Namek, Kuririn's at 1850 and Gohan's at 1200, then what's Zarbon likely to say when he sees them both on his scouter? "Two powers around 1500." There. No need to over-complicate that.

If we don't take the actual, factual numbers that were given to us through official sources to be... well, actual and factual, then what solid basis do we have with which to come up with our own numbers to begin with? I always took the official figures to be vital to PWRLVL crunching, not arbitrary toss-away stuff to be ignored on a whim. o_O
I mean... that just me. But... yeah. Um...

Yeah, silly you.

Apparently, all you have to do is clock more hours obsessing over power levels than Toriyama did, and that grants you authority and permission to declare things as being fact or not.

[p123]

The guidebooks should be used as a guide. Their power levels, are generally in the right vicinity, and are quite reasonable. Does it mean that we should denounce all logic, and put the blinders on to make them work? Of course not. But use them, as for what they were intended for. They were meant as a guide. Generally, all of the power levels in the guidebooks, are in the general vicinity of where they should be.