FUNimation DBZ TV Blu-ray Official On-Going Thread

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by MarcFBR » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:40 am

SSJMan wrote:Color schemes are written down when a show is being made so continuity may be kept in final production. From what i have been hearing for the past several years is that the company responsible for the dboxes restoration did not go off of one. Which would enplane the radical change in color form the original air dates.
Which still doesn't always equate to reality for cel based shows, as paint doesn't always match 100%, people don't always follow those guidelines, especially when work is being rushed with a weekly show. Not to mention post production tweaking, or color issues with machines. Color guides may purposefully have slightly altered coloring based on knowing limitations of equipment that will be used.

And a slight shift to red isn't 'radical', especially when the evidence that it is wrong is limited to VHS recordings and Nth gen film copies, neither of which are known for color accuracy.
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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by SSJMan » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:45 am

MarcFBR wrote:
SSJMan wrote:Color schemes are written down when a show is being made so continuity may be kept in final production. From what i have been hearing for the past several years is that the company responsible for the dboxes restoration did not go off of one. Which would enplane the radical change in color form the original air dates.
Which still doesn't always equate to reality for cel based shows, as paint doesn't always match 100%, people don't always follow those guidelines, especially when work is being rushed with a weekly show. Not to mention post production tweaking, or color issues with machines. Color guides may purposefully have slightly altered coloring based on knowing limitations of equipment that will be used.
You love to argue dont you. :lol: For a change why dont you absorb some knowledge :D

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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by MarcFBR » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:01 am

SSJMan wrote:You love to argue dont you. :lol: For a change why dont you absorb some knowledge :D
Pot calling the kettle black... You keep dismissing other peoples comments to you by saying you a professional.

And you haven't said anything I don't know. I just don't accept everything you say as fact just because you say them.


I've seen no concrete evidence the colors on the Dragon Box aren't correct. The only evidence that has been put forward are colors on random masters from other countries, which are at best multigenerational masters, or VHS recordings from decades ago.

Doesn't mean they are correct mind you, but no evidence that has been put forward concretes them as wrong. At best it gives people a specific reason to ask the question. And the question has been asked by many. We don't have a specific answer one way or the other though. So to just declare it correct because it's that way on a VHS tape, or a Nth generation film print, or even a cel (which was pointed out above caused an issue with Transformers) just isn't proper and doesn't necessarily gel with the facts.

As for absorbing knowledge... I absorb plenty, like I said, you just haven't said anything I don't know. Let's see if you've absorbed anything though... Figured out how to take a proper DVD screencap?
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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by SSJMan » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:36 am

MarcFBR wrote:
SSJMan wrote:You love to argue dont you. :lol: For a change why dont you absorb some knowledge :D
Pot calling the kettle black... You keep dismissing other peoples comments to you by saying you a professional.

And you haven't said anything I don't know. I just don't accept everything you say as fact just because you say them.


I've seen no concrete evidence the colors on the Dragon Box aren't correct. The only evidence that has been put forward are colors on random masters from other countries, which are at best multigenerational masters, or VHS recordings from decades ago.

Doesn't mean they are correct mind you, but no evidence that has been put forward concretes them as wrong. At best it gives people a specific reason to ask the question. And the question has been asked by many. We don't have a specific answer one way or the other though. So to just declare it correct because it's that way on a VHS tape, or a Nth generation film print, or even a cel (which was pointed out above caused an issue with Transformers) just isn't proper and doesn't necessarily gel with the facts.

As for absorbing knowledge... I absorb plenty, like I said, you just haven't said anything I don't know. Let's see if you've absorbed anything though... Figured out how to take a proper DVD screencap?
On encoding yes. Thats what I do for a living. on averting else I am learning and looking up:) But you seem to discount absolutely averting out there. Take a chill pill. Nothing is good enough for an example cels, original air footage. Remember we are all just fans. This is all we have for reference. unless you would like to go work for Funimation. I have been reading a lot of your comments and it seems you treat everyone as if they where stupid. The only one you trust is yourself and that is fine but you dont have to try and find some way to discount everything we have by saying to old, to unreliable, so on so forth. What I'm trying to say is, lets be friends and work on this problem together :D Using what we have. As for the cel idea you had was pretty good and I am going to talk to the TheGreenQuality about that one. Sorry for any past communication errors we had in the past.

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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by Ashura » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:54 am

MarcFBR wrote:I wouldn't necessarily trust the director's memory on colors from decades ago. You'd look at materials and use your judgement. That's what they generally try and do when remastering Disney films. They'll bring people in if they can, but in general, they look at materials, and they use their judgement.
That's what I'm saying; everyone has a different opinion of how it should be done, there's multiple ways, and no real fool-proof way.

On the Dragon Box masters though, I've seen Kei post around a note from Toei's consumer services (I think?) acknowledging that the colors are indeed slightly off. How they're off isn't mentioned (most likely because it differs in every episode.) Just looking at it and comparing it to all other releases (I'm not saying one or two), cels, and a lot of promotional shots and whatnot, evidence points to this even though you really can't say what the originals looked like 100% or say exactly how they're off without guessing. It doesn't make it bad. It just is.

The reason I think they went with these colors as they did is because it was consistent to what they had, would add a lot of extra work in color correction, and opened the exact bag of worms we have now. At least the way they are they can say, hey, these are what the masters look like even if they're slightly off. We didn't mess with it.
MarcFBR wrote:Which still doesn't always equate to reality for cel based shows, as paint doesn't always match 100%, people don't always follow those guidelines, especially when work is being rushed with a weekly show. Not to mention post production tweaking, or color issues with machines. Color guides may purposefully have slightly altered coloring based on knowing limitations of equipment that will be used.

And a slight shift to red isn't 'radical', especially when the evidence that it is wrong is limited to VHS recordings and Nth gen film copies, neither of which are known for color accuracy.
Yeah. This actually comes up on the Batman: TAS DVDs. Bruce Timm mentions that they regret picking an off-blue for the dark shade to all of Robin's green elements instead of just going black (Their color pallet was something around 16 colors, apparently), and then points out a scene where the Japanese didn't even follow their color sheets and just used black instead.

Hell, for cel animated shows, a lot of the time you're lucky if they used anything CLOSE to the right color. Who remembers watching the old Ninja Turtles shows and finding scenes where their bandanas would be completely mixed up? I think there's one Leonardo title card used on multiple episodes where he has an orange bandana, too.
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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by Paradox295 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:33 pm

MarcFBR wrote:
mikezilla2 wrote:why ? it sure as hell isn't the worst
Unless they changed the way things were handled it bypasses UAC, which is necessary to proper plug into Directshow properly. Directshow is the framework for non internal based video on Windows. If you don't plug into it properly you can potentially cause quite a few issues.

I know dozens of people (quite a few in the Daizex chatroom in fact) who have had video problems, either temporary or permanent, by using CCCP.

Switching to a better put together codec pack can increase performance despite the same codecs being in use, for various reasons (many versions of codecs will have little glitches that'll get fixed, while CCCP only updates once a year. I don't know if the way they plug into Directshow causes poor performance or if it's something else, but I know people whose PCs won't play 720p cleanly with CCCP and can play 1080p clean with better packs.)

CCCP is trash. It's mostly suggested by people because people are butthurt about things they don't like in VLC or (versions of) Mplayer yet they don't want to spend any time doing setup on a proper codec pack. CCCP is basically an install and forget it codec pack, which isn't the point of installing proper codecs. I'd take VLC or Mulder's any day over CCCP.

But I prefer my own setup, which I've given to plenty of people here at Daizex. And any one of them can tell you it works far better and at most takes 5 or 10 minutes of customizing to a persons specific hardware setup and their needs.
Screw up DirectShow? Don't know what you're talking about. I have never had that issue.

It's only just a bunch of stuff like FFDshow, Haali Media Splitter and MPC-HC. And it only updates when it needs to (Most recent one being 2 months ago).

However, I would like to hear your custom setup.

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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by MarcFBR » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:06 pm

SSJMan wrote: On encoding yes. Thats what I do for a living. on averting else I am learning and looking up:) But you seem to discount absolutely averting out there. Take a chill pill. Nothing is good enough for an example cels, original air footage. Remember we are all just fans. This is all we have for reference. unless you would like to go work for Funimation. I have been reading a lot of your comments and it seems you treat everyone as if they where stupid. The only one you trust is yourself and that is fine but you dont have to try and find some way to discount everything we have by saying to old, to unreliable, so on so forth. What I'm trying to say is, lets be friends and work on this problem together :D Using what we have. As for the cel idea you had was pretty good and I am going to talk to the TheGreenQuality about that one. Sorry for any past communication errors we had in the past.
My first few posts towards you were rather polite in an attempt to give you a chance to admit you were wrong, then you just started playing the victim, so I stopped, especially as you got ruder.

When people do something stupid, I call them on it. If you want to be treated better you have to act better. Acting the victim, claiming you are going to leave because this is a horrible place multiple times, generically acting like an ass who just keeps going "I know what I'm doing, I'm a professional" doesn't exactly earn you any respect.

Paradox295 wrote: Screw up DirectShow? Don't know what you're talking about. I have never had that issue.

It's only just a bunch of stuff like FFDshow, Haali Media Splitter and MPC-HC. And it only updates when it needs to (Most recent one being 2 months ago).

However, I would like to hear your custom setup.
Just because you haven't seen the issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist. CCCP bypasses UAC to install the codecs and filters, which isn't supposed to be done (if you install madVR you have to install it as an admin because you have to proper register the codec with Directshow, for example) last time I checked CCCP somehow bypasses this, which can lead to major problems down the line, including Directshow completely failing. Multiple people I know who use CCCP have had Directshow so damaged that to use anything minus a player with internal codecs they had to reinstall Windows.
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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by SSJMan » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:16 pm

MarcFBR wrote:
SSJMan wrote: On encoding yes. Thats what I do for a living. on averting else I am learning and looking up:) But you seem to discount absolutely averting out there. Take a chill pill. Nothing is good enough for an example cels, original air footage. Remember we are all just fans. This is all we have for reference. unless you would like to go work for Funimation. I have been reading a lot of your comments and it seems you treat everyone as if they where stupid. The only one you trust is yourself and that is fine but you dont have to try and find some way to discount everything we have by saying to old, to unreliable, so on so forth. What I'm trying to say is, lets be friends and work on this problem together :D Using what we have. As for the cel idea you had was pretty good and I am going to talk to the TheGreenQuality about that one. Sorry for any past communication errors we had in the past.
My first few posts towards you were rather polite in an attempt to give you a chance to admit you were wrong, then you just started playing the victim, so I stopped, especially as you got ruder.

When people do something stupid, I call them on it. If you want to be treated better you have to act better. Acting the victim, claiming you are going to leave because this is a horrible place multiple times, generically acting like an ass who just keeps going "I know what I'm doing, I'm a professional" doesn't exactly earn you any respect.

Paradox295 wrote: Screw up DirectShow? Don't know what you're talking about. I have never had that issue.

It's only just a bunch of stuff like FFDshow, Haali Media Splitter and MPC-HC. And it only updates when it needs to (Most recent one being 2 months ago).

However, I would like to hear your custom setup.
Just because you haven't seen the issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist. CCCP bypasses UAC to install the codecs and filters, which isn't supposed to be done (if you install madVR you have to install it as an admin because you have to proper register the codec with Directshow, for example) last time I checked CCCP somehow bypasses this, which can lead to major problems down the line, including Directshow completely failing. Multiple people I know who use CCCP have had Directshow so damaged that to use anything minus a player with internal codecs they had to reinstall Windows.
I am going to be done with this place. But I wanted to post pictures of level 1.1 before I did. I was hoping in between that time that we can get over what ever issue we had, so maybe I could stay. As the one time I was rude, I took the post down immediately and apologized.

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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by AgitoZ » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:22 pm

SSJMan wrote:I am going to be done with this place.
Again?
If you're not here soon... GET ON!

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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by SSJMan » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:38 pm

AgitoZ wrote:
SSJMan wrote:I am going to be done with this place.
Again?
Yes, I'm trying my hardest to get over what ever issue MarcFBR and I have. But the reasons I have wanted to leave is, I was accused of taking photos from an illegal rip even tho I did no such thing. They thought I manipulated the blu ray photo, then they said the blu ray pic was fine and that I manipulated the dvd pic. Which all I did was turn off my video card and use Cyberlink powerdvd 11 for a screen cap. Every time I try and speak on this forum MarcFBR seems to make it a personal issue . I honestly would just like to talk some dragon ball with some fellow fans :mrgreen:
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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by nathantheguitarist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:41 pm

SSJMan wrote:They thought I manipulated the blu ray photo, then they said the blu ray pic was fine and that I manipulated the dvd pic.
Neither of those screenshots are the right resolution. The Blu-ray one isn't even 1080p. So...
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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by SSJMan » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:43 pm

nathantheguitarist wrote:
SSJMan wrote:They thought I manipulated the blu ray photo, then they said the blu ray pic was fine and that I manipulated the dvd pic.
Neither of those screenshots are the right resolution. The Blu-ray one isn't even 1080p. So...
Resolution was never the issue. besides, photobucket re-sized them to a smaller resolution because the file size was so high. I'm using the image shack from now on. That was a newbie mistake I can understand if that was the reason people thought that.

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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by MarcFBR » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:56 pm

SSJMan wrote:Resolution was never the issue. besides, photobucket re-sized them to a smaller resolution because the file size was so high. I'm using the image shack from now on. That was a newbie mistake I can understand if that was the reason people thought that.
Resolution alone isn't the issue, but the colors are not accurate. I've double and triple checked in multiple players. I can not find it possible that DVD capture is accurate colorwise. I suggest you double check your settings.
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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by SSJMan » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:20 pm

MarcFBR wrote:
SSJMan wrote:Resolution was never the issue. besides, photobucket re-sized them to a smaller resolution because the file size was so high. I'm using the image shack from now on. That was a newbie mistake I can understand if that was the reason people thought that.
Resolution alone isn't the issue, but the colors are not accurate. I've double and triple checked in multiple players. I can not find it possible that DVD capture is accurate colorwise. I suggest you double check your settings.
It dose not mater what player you use if you video card is sill controlling the pic on the screen. Pleasssse try putting it in sony vegas and taking a screen cap form that. you will see exactly what I was talking about.

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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by funrush » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:42 pm

My one request for who gets the set is that they post one or two clips in Japanese, and then in English, so we can see if they improved the audio for both tracks.

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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by MarcFBR » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:45 pm

SSJMan wrote:Resolution alone isn't the issue, but the colors are not accurate. I've double and triple checked in multiple players. I can not find it possible that DVD capture is accurate colorwise. I suggest you double check your settings.
It dose not mater what player you use if you video card is sill controlling the pic on the screen. Pleasssse try putting it in sony vegas and taking a screen cap form that. you will see exactly what I was talking about.[/quote]

My video card is manually set not to affect video, period, unless DXVA is on, which it isn't.

Putting it in Vegas is a worthless exercise for two reasons. 1- I don't have Vegas and don't intend to get it. 2- By your own admission your cap isn't from Vegas.

I went ahead and put it in Premiere though, and shock and surprise...

http://db-destiny.net/batman-premiere.png


And since you keep saying it over and over, and I have to keep repeating myself. My video card is set not to touch the video, so it isn't that.
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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by Gozar » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:53 pm

I'm not sure if it's worth mentioning, but people here have been discussing the fact that the Blu-Ray's seem to more focus towards the colors of the singles (As opposed to the Dragon Box). Some people feel that this is better as they are closer to the original unaltered colors.

Now I know absolutely NOTHING about tech stuff. But I was just wondering if it is commonplace in Japanese Remastering to up the red levels? I ask because, if the increased pink in the skin tones are not part of the original footage, then why up the red levels to make it look like that? Such things are also prevalent in the remastering of Lupin III in Japan. Take a look at this screencap comparison that I put together a while back from the Pink Jacket Series.

It compares the original footage (1984) to the Lupin the Box footage (2007).

Image

In addition, the Blu-Ray release of Lupin III Green Jacket Series (2008) has the same upped red levels.

Click Here

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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by MarcFBR » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:58 pm

Gozar wrote:Now I know absolutely NOTHING about tech stuff. But I was just wondering if it is commonplace in Japanese Remastering to up the red levels? I ask because, if the increased pink in the skin tones are not part of the original footage, then why up the red levels to make it look like that? Such things are also prevalent in the remastering of Lupin III in Japan. Take a look at this screencap comparison that I put together a while back from the Pink Jacket Series.
This comes up more than you'd think.

American anime fans, and some Japanese also, went nuts about the Spirited Away DVDs. It had heightened red levels. It's common enough that it is clearly done on purpose to some degree.

Japanese NTSC uses the same color levels as American NTSC. It's white point is different, but that wouldn't affect the red level.




And for the sake of argument, I also captured the frame in another video editor, VirtualDub, with all acceleration/GPU features turned off- Shockingly the colors match mine from before yet again- http://db-destiny.net/batman-vdub.png
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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by SSJMan » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:59 pm

MarcFBR wrote: It dose not mater what player you use if you video card is sill controlling the pic on the screen. Pleasssse try putting it in sony vegas and taking a screen cap form that. you will see exactly what I was talking about.
My video card is manually set not to affect video, period, unless DXVA is on, which it isn't.

Putting it in Vegas is a worthless exercise for two reasons. 1- I don't have Vegas and don't intend to get it. 2- By your own admission your cap isn't from Vegas.

I went ahead and put it in Premiere though, and shock and surprise...

http://db-destiny.net/batman-premiere.png


And since you keep saying it over and over, and I have to keep repeating myself. My video card is set not to touch the video, so it isn't that.[/quote]

well I dont know what to say. I know when the properties are set for a dvd 8 bit pixel format. That is not the Picture I come up with. You can torrent the program or try and change the settings in premiere. I dont have premiere so I dont know. Normally I would have taken the same screen cap you did, with help from video cards that would be the best I will look. but I was just trying to show the differences in luminance levels. So I showed it without video card help.

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Re: FUNimation to put DBZ on Blu-Ray

Post by SSJMan » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:03 pm

Gozar wrote:I'm not sure if it's worth mentioning, but people here have been discussing the fact that the Blu-Ray's seem to more focus towards the colors of the singles (As opposed to the Dragon Box). Some people feel that this is better as they are closer to the original unaltered colors.

Now I know absolutely NOTHING about tech stuff. But I was just wondering if it is commonplace in Japanese Remastering to up the red levels? I ask because, if the increased pink in the skin tones are not part of the original footage, then why up the red levels to make it look like that? Such things are also prevalent in the remastering of Lupin III in Japan. Take a look at this screencap comparison that I put together a while back from the Pink Jacket Series.

It compares the original footage (1984) to the Lupin the Box footage (2007).

Image

In addition, the Blu-Ray release of Lupin III Green Jacket Series (2008) has the same upped red levels.

Click Here
Thats a color correction issue. You can still show a fuller spectrum of color without making it look pink.

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