Did FUNimation overstep their bounds?

[VegettoEX]

Questioning whether we actually need an "I think the English dub should have been..." thread as we bring 2011 to a close. I suppose you could say that every single last thing we ever talk about on this forum is "irrelevant", but this walks the line far more closely than anything else.

Please try, if you want to weigh in on the discussion, to attempt to add something worthwhile and engaging to the discussion.

[Rukura]

I'm of the "forgive and forget" mentality now that we have the Kai dub. Yeah, if DBZ had been given the "Kai dub treatment," to begin with, that would have been awesome, but alas, it never came to be. Life goes on.

As for Goku's original Japanese voice (Masako Nozawa) sounding "gay," I don't think we can blame FUNimation for that sentiment. It's not like they ever used that word to describe Nozawa's performance. That's merely the sentiment of fans who watch it and don't hear what they expect. I'm not condoning the use of that word to describe Nozawa's performance, but as great an actress as Nozawa is, you have to admit, the voice she uses for Goku--as an adult--is unnatural in the sense that there is no adult male that sounds like that. The English dub isn't the lone offender there, either...it should be worth noting that literally every single dub ever made for DBZ has Goku being voiced by an adult male....I'm just saiyan.'

Have you ever actually been to Japan and/or been around a lot of regular japanese people? Because you seem to be under the impression that every japanese male sounds like Vegeta or Trunks.

You're touching a nerve with that post, as an outsider, I'm gonna tell you what the real problem seems to be: Dragon Ball. The problem? Very few people actually watched ALL of it.
Goku doesn't have a "manly man" voice (aside the fact that not everyone does), and when watching Nozawa's Z performance...you really don't know the background of that voice to see it grow. How can one make that call and (even try) make a fair assessment of something like that?

I'm not american. I'm not japanese. What I say of the american dub is irrelevant because I'm not the target audience to begin with. But tell me: Does a person that grows up with the voice of dub Goku grow up to sound "manly" like Sean Schemmel's portrait of Goku? Now THAT is unnatural. You have a huge disconnect there when you transition from a woman voicing a kid to a butching man voice.

Am I saying that Goku MUST sound like too young or "like a woman"? No. What you need is a natural transition of the same person to voice the character for the "voice" to "grow".
I'm portuguese. Our dub was in no way a "proper" or an "accurate" dub of the series. But the person who voiced Goku was the same from Episode 1 of DB to 64 of GT, and while it got to the "manly" voice later on, it was a natural transition. Just saying.

[TheGreatness25]

No offense to anyone, and I don't mean this in a bad way at all, but I find it amazing that people are still talking about a dub that was done from 1999 (we'll just include the FUNimation in-house cast for the sake of keeping it simple) to 2002. Sure, in 2003 they did GT and 2005 the Ultimate Uncut, but guys, come on, that was so long ago. It's done, it came and went, and if people didn't like it, FUNimation gave you the greatest gift possible: the Japanese version on all of their releases. You have four versions of the show that you can listen to in three different audios. If you don't like it, then who cares what they did? Just watch the original and pretend the dub never existed. If people's Youtube comments bother you, then what's the big problem? Why do purist fans believe that it is their duty to change the minds of fans who only saw the dub on Cartoon Network and have no idea about what's going on outside of FUNimation? It's not the peak of DBZ, it's not coming out right now on TV, does it really matter what fans who were limited in what they saw, say about something that was done from 1999-2002? If anything, Kai kind of fixes some of these things and you can always point that out to them, but Youtube fans and IGN fans and all those crappy little forum fans don't really matter when it comes to DBZ. If they knew anything, they'd be here, not there. Why do simple things like Youtube comments bother people so much? I see that all the time. "I can't believe what these people are saying on Youtube!" Who cares? It's the same people that take a crappy ripped piece of footage from the internet and put it together with a love song to try to show the love between Vegeta and Bulma. I guess what I'm getting at is...it's a freaking cartoon! lol

[TheBlackPaladin]

I'm of the "forgive and forget" mentality now that we have the Kai dub. Yeah, if DBZ had been given the "Kai dub treatment," to begin with, that would have been awesome, but alas, it never came to be. Life goes on.

As for Goku's original Japanese voice (Masako Nozawa) sounding "gay," I don't think we can blame FUNimation for that sentiment. It's not like they ever used that word to describe Nozawa's performance. That's merely the sentiment of fans who watch it and don't hear what they expect. I'm not condoning the use of that word to describe Nozawa's performance, but as great an actress as Nozawa is, you have to admit, the voice she uses for Goku--as an adult--is unnatural in the sense that there is no adult male that sounds like that. The English dub isn't the lone offender there, either...it should be worth noting that literally every single dub ever made for DBZ has Goku being voiced by an adult male....I'm just saiyan.'

Have you ever actually been to Japan and/or been around a lot of regular japanese people? Because you seem to be under the impression that every japanese male sounds like Vegeta or Trunks.

You're touching a nerve with that post, as an outsider, I'm gonna tell you what the real problem seems to be: Dragon Ball. The problem? Very few people actually watched ALL of it.
Goku doesn't have a "manly man" voice (aside the fact that not everyone does), and when watching Nozawa's Z performance...you really don't know the background of that voice to see it grow. How can one make that call and (even try) make a fair assessment of something like that?

I'm not american. I'm not japanese. What I say of the american dub is irrelevant because I'm not the target audience to begin with. But tell me: Does a person that grows up with the voice of dub Goku grow up to sound "manly" like Sean Schemmel's portrait of Goku? Now THAT is unnatural. You have a huge disconnect there when you transition from a woman voicing a kid to a butching man voice.

Am I saying that Goku MUST sound like too young or "like a woman"? No. What you need is a natural transition of the same person to voice the character for the "voice" to "grow".
I'm portuguese. Our dub was in no way a "proper" or an "accurate" dub of the series. But the person who voiced Goku was the same from Episode 1 of DB to 64 of GT, and while it got to the "manly" voice later on, it was a natural transition. Just saying.

It's not my intention to touch a nerve, which is why I took care to phrase my post as I did. I'm not saying that all Japanese men sound like Vegeta or Trunks. I really wasn't talking about Japanese men at all. I was talking about grown men in general. There is no grown adult man in the real world who has a voice that sounds like the voice Masako Nozawa gave to adult Goku (and bare in mind I'm talking about adult Goku, not kid Goku). One could argue that sounding natural doesn't matter considering that the show takes place in a world where people fly and shoot giant ki beams at each other--which is obviously and decidedly unnatural--but I was merely trying to tell you why I think many fans have unfortunately deemed Masako Nozawa's adult Goku voice to be "gay." And that would be because he still sounds like a woman.

As for transitioning from a woman voicing a kid to a "butching man voice"...how is that unnatural? That happens all the time. Kids start out with high-pitched voices when they're younger and they deepen as they get older. How much they deepen varies, obviously, but all deep-voiced men at one point had a comparatively higher-pitched voice when they were a kid. Of course, that's not to say Goku should have a deep voice. I'm merely contending that some people think the original Japanese performance sounds "gay" because he sounds like a woman, and not a grown man. Which is in stark contrast to what they would expect to hear from a character with adult Goku's physical appearance. I'll point out again that literally every single other dub in the world must agree to an extent, considering that adult Goku was voiced by an adult male, not a woman.

[Rukura]

It's not my intention to touch a nerve, which is why I took care to phrase my post as I did. I'm not saying that all Japanese men sound like Vegeta or Trunks. I really wasn't talking about Japanese men at all. I was talking about grown men in general. There is no grown adult man in the real world who has a voice that sounds like the voice Masako Nozawa gave to adult Goku (and bare in mind I'm talking about adult Goku, not kid Goku). One could argue that sounding natural doesn't matter considering that the show takes place in a world where people fly and shoot giant ki beams at each other--which is obviously and decidedly unnatural--but I was merely trying to tell you why I think many fans have unfortunately deemed Masako Nozawa's adult Goku voice to be "gay." And that would be because he still sounds like a woman.

As for transitioning from a woman voicing a kid to a "butching man voice"...how is that unnatural? That happens all the time. Kids start out with high-pitched voices when they're younger and they deepen as they get older. How much they deepen varies, obviously, but all deep-voiced men at one point had a comparatively higher-pitched voice when they were a kid. Of course, that's not to say Goku should have a deep voice. I'm merely contending that some people think the original Japanese performance sounds "gay" because he sounds like a woman, and not a grown man. Which is in stark contrast to what they would expect to hear from a character with adult Goku's physical appearance. I'll point out again that literally every single other dub in the world must agree to an extent, considering that adult Goku was voiced by an adult male, not a woman.

Sorry about wording it like that lol. I didn't mean "touching a nerve" as spitting in my mother's grave or anything, just as "I have something that I really want to say to that"
Even when talking about men in general, there are still people with high-pitched voices. And when talking about a japanese person...you really need to compare it to japanese men, which in some cases can have even higher voices than western folk. Ironically, Goku is played by a woman as a man but, in the american dub, there are voices (that should be male) played by women as women...which I hear far less complaints of. But I digress.

The fact remains that those fans complain about Goku sounding like a woman simply because of the broad contrast with their version BUT even more so for lack of context.

Also, speaking for myself and people that I know, I did not have a squeaky, "wanna be" punk-ish kiddy voice when growing up. But people that did have, did not grow up to a well spoken butch voice.
I seriously question how natural that is.
Yeah, it seems to happen a lot in english dubs, but that doesn't mean it's right. Ask Sean Schemmel if he sounded like that kid Goku when he was 14.

EDIT: I'll also point out that I'm not saying that Goku can't nor shouldn't be dubbed by male voices...only that they should also work on voicing their own character all the way through. That also happened on other dubs. (Then again, they didn't care much about Dragon Ball, since their focus was always Z)

[kemuri07]

Dubbies don't hate Nozawa because of Funi indoctrination, they hate her because she sounds godawful.

And obviously a dub, accurate or not, would not have her voice in it, so it is an entirely moot point...

As for Kai, it's 2011. Not 1996.

And this means...? Sure, times have changed, but it is not as if the kids of today know that at all. They just see a cool action cartoon... the same exact video footage that American kids saw in 1996. So that much cannot have changed.

Except that it means quite a lot. Are you really going to try and tell me that attitudes towards anime hasn't changed since 1996? We currently live in an era where Anime is extremely easy to obtain (both to purchase and for free); but, in 1996? Anime wasn't really a known quantity to the mass public, and the anime that were shown on American television (Sailormoon, Samurai Pizza Cats, Voltron) were heavily Americanized. By the time DBZ was released, most people's knowledge of anime only came from Pokemon (another heavily modified anime). It was only really until DBZ's initial success, as well as the rise of Adult Swim, that people started to realize that anime wasn't simply for kids, and was capable of more adult-oriented material.

Guys, saying "WELL DBZ IS A GREAT SHOW, SO IT WOULD HAVE DONE WELL, BECAUSE GOOD THINGS ALWAYS ARE SUCCESSFUL!!!" is a poor argument to make; especially in regards to American television. Honestly, if we truly lived in an idealized world where things that were of quality are rewarded, then Community (an amazing television sitcom you all should be watching) would be receiving the highest in both ratings and praise, and crap like "The Big Bang Theory" would have been cancelled within its first season. But life doesn't work that way, does it?

The problem with using "Kai" as proof that DBZ would have done well is that it completely ignores the changes that occurred in the anime market. Those kids watching Kai right now have probably been exposed to anime that--as I've said before--is completely easy to obtain. Kids right now can go on Hulu and watch the original Japanese version of the show--something I would have killed for when I was growing up. But that wasn't the case when I was growing up. We cannot look at this in a simplified manner--we have to look at this from a cultural perspective. DBZ is more than just "FIGHTAN ALIENS AND LAZAR BEAMS," it's a portrayal of a specific culture--a culture that's completely alien to the American public. Since Funimation is in the business of making money (as all companies are), it makes complete sense for them to cater to the majority; and the majority weren't the people who spent their time watching the show in Japanese. It doesn't make any sense for Funimation to cater to a specific audience, rather than make the show as accessible as possible. Was it fairly bad? Yeah, but you don't have to condone what they did; but, you can understand it.

So do I think Funimation's involvement with the series helped it to be a cultural juggernaut in the west? Yes, yes I do. I agree that having a time-slot where people could actually watch it was helpful, but I do think that accessibility was the key here. And honestly, I'm just going to say it right now: I don't think a majority of us would be here today if it weren't for the Americanized version of DBZ. Like it or not, it got us all into the franchise.

Also, speaking for myself and people that I know, I did not have a squeaky, "wanna be" punk-ish kiddy voice when growing up. But people that did have, did not grow up to a well spoken butch voice.
I seriously question how natural that is.
Yeah, it seems to happen a lot in english dubs, but that doesn't mean it's right. Ask Sean Schemmel if he sounded like that kid Goku when he was 14.

Your missing the point though. No one grows up to sound as gruff as Batman, or as heroic as Superman. But that's how heroes are idealized in the west. They are not meant to be attainable, or even remotely realistic--that's not the point of the superhero.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Japanese Goku doesn't sound to me as a woman, nor as a man. He just has a strange voice. Maybe Bardock's father rapped his sister after winning a great battle and getting drunk (in reference to the Saiyans' "off-duty" activities thread, lol). Then she got pregnant and Bardock was born! Because his mother was his father's sister, he had a genetic anomaly, which got noticed when he become an adult: a weird voice. This wasn't passed to Raditz, but was passed to Goku, from whom got passed to his sons Gohan & Goten... and after 5 more generations, to even Goku Jr.!

[jjgp1112]

@Rukura: Well, duh, of course most male kids are voiced by females. It's pretty hard for a grown man to replicate a kid's voice, but it's generally easy for a woman to make herself sound like a prepubescent boy.

Japanese Goku doesn't sound to me as a woman, nor as a man. He just has a strange voice. Maybe Bardock's father rapped his sister after winning a great battle and getting drunk (in reference to the Saiyans' "off-duty" activities thread, lol). Then she got pregnant and Bardock was born! Because his mother was his father's sister, he had a genetic anomaly, which got noticed when he become an adult: a weird voice. This wasn't passed to Raditz, but was passed to Goku, from whom got passed to his sons Gohan & Goten... and after 5 more generations, to even Goku Jr.!

Please tell me this is tongue-in-cheek.

[Rukura]

Also, speaking for myself and people that I know, I did not have a squeaky, "wanna be" punk-ish kiddy voice when growing up. But people that did have, did not grow up to a well spoken butch voice.
I seriously question how natural that is.
Yeah, it seems to happen a lot in english dubs, but that doesn't mean it's right. Ask Sean Schemmel if he sounded like that kid Goku when he was 14.

Your missing the point though. No one grows up to sound as gruff as Batman, or as heroic as Superman. But that's how heroes are idealized in the west. They are not meant to be attainable, or even remotely realistic--that's not the point of the superhero.

But what you're talking about there is just a poor choice in portaiting the character at hand.
You don't start with Kid Batman or Kid Superman as the main characters, and there are people that have such voices. We're talking about a character that does start as a kid, does have that background, is also a hick, and was simply changed as a character completely by a performance that WOULD FIT an american super hero show.....which this is not.

@Rukura: Well, duh, of course most male kids are voiced by females. It's pretty hard for a grown man to replicate a kid's voice, but it's generally easy for a woman to make herself sound like a prepubescent boy.

I don't see how that should be a valid reason to not do it. Other dubs did that exact same thing. Now, if you tell me that they can't find many talented voice actors that can and are willing to make that transition...well...that's whole other discussion

[jjgp1112]

But it doesn't matter. Most women do a good job at sounding like little boys, so it doesn't particularly matter one way or another what gender is playing their voice. An adult male being able to make a little kid voice that doesn't sound exaggerated isn't a matter of talent - in most cases, it's pretty much impossible for their vocal cords to produce such a sound.

[kemuri07]

Also, speaking for myself and people that I know, I did not have a squeaky, "wanna be" punk-ish kiddy voice when growing up. But people that did have, did not grow up to a well spoken butch voice.
I seriously question how natural that is.
Yeah, it seems to happen a lot in english dubs, but that doesn't mean it's right. Ask Sean Schemmel if he sounded like that kid Goku when he was 14.

Your missing the point though. No one grows up to sound as gruff as Batman, or as heroic as Superman. But that's how heroes are idealized in the west. They are not meant to be attainable, or even remotely realistic--that's not the point of the superhero.

But what you're talking about there is just a poor choice in portaiting the character at hand.
You don't start with Kid Batman or Kid Superman as the main characters, and there are people that have such voices. We're talking about a character that does start as a kid, does have that background, is also a hick, and was simply changed as a character completely by a performance that WOULD FIT an american super hero show.....which this is not.
:

I'm sorry, I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here.

[Rukura]

But it doesn't matter. Most women do a good job at sounding like little boys, so it doesn't particularly matter one way or another what gender is playing their voice. An adult male being able to make a little kid voice that doesn't sound exaggerated isn't a matter of talent - in most cases, it's pretty much impossible for their vocal cords to produce such a sound.

I'm not saying they can't do a good job at it (many people seem okay with Naruto's english older teen voice, for example), what I'm talking about is that disconnect in the consistency. Those 2 voices are clearly NOT for the same character. That's the issue.
Impossible? Hardly. Unwilling to do it? Sounds more like the case.

I'm sorry, I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here.

That the western ideal of a hero does not fit a series that is not based on that same ideal, which seems like it was the problem for most of it.

[thedarkuniter]

While Funimation may have bought some "damage" in the fanbase, with each increasing day, I'm starting to care less about inaccurates and such. My brother and my cousin are raised on the Funimation dub and pretty much use with the dub names on a day-to-day bases. I don't really have the need to correct someone if they use dub terms or say "Over 9000". In the end, all of us enjoy and its universal no matter what dub, we're getting the same experience, dialogue aside.

[penguintruth]

If DBZ had been dubbed as accurately as some people on here want, it would've never gained the explosive popularity it had in the US.

Just look at how poorly original Dragonball fares over here.

You can't know that. DBZ was likely popular here because it was a unique action cartoon, not because anything Funimation did with it.


Also, the reason why people here think Goku's Japanese voice is wrong is because they didn't start watching from Dragon Ball. The voice naturally evolves as the story goes along.

[kemuri07]

But it doesn't matter. Most women do a good job at sounding like little boys, so it doesn't particularly matter one way or another what gender is playing their voice. An adult male being able to make a little kid voice that doesn't sound exaggerated isn't a matter of talent - in most cases, it's pretty much impossible for their vocal cords to produce such a sound.

I'm not saying they can't do a good job at it (many people seem okay with Naruto's english older teen voice, for example), what I'm talking about is that disconnect in the consistency. Those 2 voices are clearly NOT for the same character. That's the issue.
Impossible? Hardly. Unwilling to do it? Sounds more like the case.

I'm sorry, I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here.

That the western ideal of a hero does not fit a series that is not based on that same ideal, which seems like it was the problem for most of it.

Ok, and I understand that. Hell, I agree that Americanizing anything is pretty fucking terrible. But that's not what we're arguing here. I'm not suggesting whether it was "right," what I am saying is that it makes complete sense for Funimation's actions. Goku, as he is portrayed in the Japanese series, does not fit the model of what a Hero is to Americans, especially children. I do think that people would be alienated with the show had Funimation attempted to duplicate how he original sounds.

Also, the reason why people here think Goku's Japanese voice is wrong is because they didn't start watching from Dragon Ball. The voice naturally evolves as the story goes along.

How does that make any difference? In an American cartoon, when a child protagonist grows up (either naturally or due to some circumstances concerning the episode), they always have a significantly deeper voice.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

While Funimation may have bought some "damage" in the fanbase

It's a lot of damage in the fanbase, and that's the exact reason why I hate FUNimation. Exept of this forum, almost every other DBZ forum is full of FUNi-boys, and they try to think of a reason how Bardock lost control of his SSJ power and self-destructed... FUNimation has only done 3 good things for the franchise:
1) Dragon Ball (Z) Kai (I haven't heard the dub, but I believe it's good, since everyone here says so)
2) Dragon Box Z (but they may screw it up with this too, if they don't release the rest and release only DBZ)
3) There are international DBZ video games (I'm not sure if they are responsible for this, but prior DBZ came to US, the video games were only for Japan, and sometimes to France and some other countries, but they were defenately not in English, exept Final Bout, and even in this, the negative is that while it has Japanese voices with subs, the subs are innacurate to the Japanese voices, they go by the dub!)

[cRookie_Monster]

Here's a chart to put some numbers on things:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=Dragonba ... all&sort=0

[penguintruth]

How does that make any difference? In an American cartoon, when a child protagonist grows up (either naturally or due to some circumstances concerning the episode), they always have a significantly deeper voice.

Nozawa's adult Goku is a natural outgrowth of her child Goku.

[samuraix123]

I love both Funimation's Dub & The Japanese Dub. I'm Not going to lie to the people of Daizenshuu EX about it! But I don't go on Youtube and Scream It's over 9000!
I hate that so much how people over use that stuff. (Especially the Chuck Norris jokes those are getting old as well.) I mean it's okay to pull a joke here and there, But when you keep using the same stuff over and over again, it get's a little old and annoying.
I do consider myself a Hardcore Fan! What? If I like the English Dub that means I'm not A Quote
*Hardcore Fan!* gimme a break. I respect Both the Japanese and English Dub. Even though I watch more of The Japanese Dub than I do the English. But I defiantly can prove how Hardcore of a fan I really am. But I'm pretty sure No one want's to hear that. Anyway's I will leave everyone with a joke.

Why is there Joke's about Chuck Norris but not about Bruce lee? Because Bruce lee ain't no joke son waachaa! haha

[thedarkuniter]

It's a lot of damage in the fanbase, and that's the exact reason why I hate FUNimation. Exept of this forum, almost every other DBZ forum is full of FUNi-boys, and they try to think of a reason how Bardock lost control of his SSJ power and self-destructed... FUNimation has only done 3 good things for the franchise:
1) Dragon Ball (Z) Kai (I haven't heard the dub, but I believe it's good, since everyone here says so)
2) Dragon Box Z (but they may screw it up with this too, if they don't release the rest and release only DBZ)

The dub is really great, its very accurate and the voice actors from the English side are very awesome. I wouldn't count Funimation not releasing the other Dragon Boxes as a screw-up. First of all, its not like they released the rest of them and screw up the picture quality or anything. Secondly, there's not enough demand for Dragon Box releases for GT or Dragon Ball since they released them in 4x3, I believe the Dragon Boxes are released in response to fans complaining ( and rightly so) about the cropping and the heavily applied DNR. I wouldn't go as far to say I hate Funimation, in fact, I'm graceful that Funimation is releasing the Dragon Ball franchise in the first place. Without them or any anime company for that matter, non of us would be discussing about our favorite show ( mines is actually Fist of the North Star).