Did FUNimation overstep their bounds?

[Fionordequester]

I'm going to be kind and focus on the script and not the music.

Okey doke then. I guess we'll leave music up in the air then. Just give me a second, and I'll upload some stuff to Youtube.

EDIT: What I initially said here was "Why thank you. Also, if I head starts hurting, and I get tired, could you please allow me to tap out?" in response to PenguinTruth. This was what VegettoEX undoubtedly responded to in the next post. Let this be a reminder not to do that anymore.

[VegettoEX]

Again, seriously. Less on the snark. penguintruth, try to keep it a little less antagonistic than you like to be everywhere else on the Internet. I'm not giving you or anyone else any free passes to be snippy with each other. Fionordequester, two wrongs don't make a right -- be the better man.

If you have what you feel is a legitimate point, use your polite and firm words to say it. All you do by getting snarky is lessen any impact or validity you have, and that's pretty counter-effective, right? Remember where it is you're conversing, and what our entire goal is. If you're not down with that, we're not down with you.

[Fionordequester]

Again, seriously. Less on the snark. penguintruth, try to keep it a little less antagonistic than you like to be everywhere else on the Internet. I'm not giving you or anyone else any free passes to be snippy with each other. Fionordequester, two wrongs don't make a right -- be the better man.

I'll be honest, that was a moment of weakness on my part, which was why I editted the message. Still, I made a mistake by even entertaining the thought. I'm sorry. Making him mad in any sort of way only makes it harder to have a good discussion ...

EDIT: Should I go back to the message I editted and show what I initially said? I changed it before VegettoEX posted his response, but it's clear that my first version was what he responded to.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

But the original anime also takes liberties to make "improvements". If they can do it, why can't FUNi?

I agree. FUNimation had the rights to do as they liked with the show. Whether they should have is another matter. I don't think it's fair to say that dubbing companies have no right at all to make any changes. That may be your opinion, but it's not one of the ten commandments of anime bestowed upon you by Osamu Tezuka himself.



Personally, however, I wouldn't consider any of the changes FUNimation has made to Dragon Ball Z "improvements".

[Kendamu]

I think that the idea that there are "relatively few" bad moments in the DBZ dub is a pretty generous statement. Right now I just switched to the dub in the Boo arc, where people say "It's not so bad!" and just heard this:

"Knock knock!"
"Who's there?"
"Boo!"
"Boo who?"
"You don't have to cry about it!"

If you wanna like the dub or defend it, that's cool, but let's not pretend that lines like this are "few" or "an improvement."

Funny part is that the only thing that really irks me about the dub nowadays is that the Kai dub is such a tease as to what could've been.

[Attitudefan]

Because that's a terrible argument to make as to why I should believe that that's the superior version.

It is what it is. You read a Stephen King's Horror novel, and if a translator changed the way the delivery was (ie yell to talk) it is not originally intended even if it is good or not. You can't just go around making and changing things that are not meant to be even if it might be better. Write a parody or a different story if one can think they could do better!

[Levlik]

It also has to be kept in mind that a lot of FUNi's changes -- obviously not all of them, of course -- were due to the fact that the transcripts they received were supposedly poor English translations of the Spanish translation, so a lot of the dialogue had to be redone from scratch, not because they felt it would improve the flow of dialogue but simply because they had absolutely no idea of what was actually being said.

That's just hearsay, though. I'm not entirely sure how the writing process was done and this was just something Chris Sabat briefly touched upon in an interview.

[Fionordequester]

If you wanna like the dub or defend it, that's cool, but let's not pretend that lines like this are "few" or "an improvement."

To be fair, Buu himself is extremely childish in nature when he doesn't have anyone besides Fat Buu absorbed, so that's not really out of character for him. In any case, how many lines like that can you really think of off the top of your head that's not from either Season 3 and 4?

EDIT: I'm just talking pure silliness here, not about whether or not there are many innaccurate lines. I know that much.

[Attitudefan]

It also has to be kept in mind that a lot of FUNi's changes -- obviously not all of them, of course -- were due to the fact that the transcripts they received were supposedly poor English translations of the Spanish translation, so a lot of the dialogue had to be redone from scratch, not because they felt it would improve the flow of dialogue but simply because they had absolutely no idea of what was actually being said.

That's just hearsay, though. I'm not entirely sure how the writing process was done and this was just something Chris Sabat briefly touched upon in an interview.

Yet today they still do mistranslations and dumb dialogue which could have been fixed. It doesn't help as they probably knew they were adding more dialogue!

[penguintruth]

It also has to be kept in mind that a lot of FUNi's changes -- obviously not all of them, of course -- were due to the fact that the transcripts they received were supposedly poor English translations of the Spanish translation, so a lot of the dialogue had to be redone from scratch, not because they felt it would improve the flow of dialogue but simply because they had absolutely no idea of what was actually being said.

That only makes Funimation seem more incompetent. How much could it cost to hire some translators?

[Levlik]

I'm not defending the dub or condoning what they did; lord knows I haven't even cared about the dub since 2001. I'm just trying to shed some light on the situation. Like I said, hearsay.

[Fionordequester]

That only makes Funimation seem more incompetent. How much could it cost to hire some translators?

Actually they did hire a translator who happened to be the son of Linda Young in Season 4. He went out of his way to make sure that Mecha Frieza wasn't stuck with as many embarrasingly bad lines as he was in Season 3.

[penguintruth]

That only makes Funimation seem more incompetent. How much could it cost to hire some translators?

Actually they did hire a translator who happened to be the son of Linda Young in Season 4. He went out of his way to make sure that Mecha Freeza wasn't stuck with as many embarrasingly bad lines as he was in Season 3.

John Burgmeier, you mean? I always liked his Kurama in YYH.

But seasons 4 until the end were still rife with awful scripts.

[Saiga]

But the original anime also takes liberties to make "improvements". If they can do it, why can't FUNi?

What a patently absurd question.

Toei created the animated series. Funimation's duty is to adapt the series as closely as originally made by TOEI, not as originally made by TORIYAMA. And any changes/mistakes Toei made are already scrutinized, so it's not like Toei's getting away with anything.

Now, of course, legally, Funimation could do a completely inaccurate dub and not be at fault. They purchased the license for the property and were given carte blanche to do as they will with the scripts (with some probable limitations). But just because they're ALLOWED to do something doesn't mean they SHOULD.

Are you trying to say that because one company makes mistakes it's all right for another to? It isn't Funimation's place to rework the dialogue of DBZ. It's not doing the product justice.

Plus, I would love to hear what somebody thinks Funimation "improved" by changing. It's not like they were fixing Toei's take on the story by being more faithful to the original work. They were pulverizing it with idiocy.

What frustrates me is that fans of the dub seem all right that Funimation is insulting the intelligence of the viewer. DBZ is not a smart show, but it never talks down to its audience. Unless it's the English dub, which does. By being a fan of that, it makes dub fans seem like they're agreeing that they're too dumb for what DBZ really is.

I don't find it to be an absurd question at all.

It was never FUNi's duty to adapt the series as closely made by Toei, it isn't just legally that they aren't at fault. It was an investment on their part, and they should have the freedom to take it in any direction they choose because of that. And no, I'm not saying that it is ok for FUNi to make mistakes because Toei made mistakes, I'm wondering why people get so hung up on FUNi not being accurate to the original anime created by Toei while that anime wasn't accurate to begin with.

It IS FUNi's place to make changes to the dialogue as they see fit, as the English dub is THEIR investment. They have to look at the script and decide, "Is this what we want to market to our target demographic?" and make changes if the answer is "no". They don't have any obligation to be accurate to the Japanese anime. Whether they "were pulverizing it with idiocy" is up to one's personal opinion, and that sounds closer to my opinion of Toei's adaption than FUNi's.

Your last paragraph is just plain insulting.

[penguintruth]

I'm wondering why people get so hung up on FUNi not being accurate to the original anime created by Toei while that anime wasn't accurate to begin with.

I've explained this already. It's Funimation's place to be accurate to the anime as Toei made it. Toei's own flaws are a seperate matter. You need to learn to compartmentalize.

It's their investment, fine, but they have a duty to the integrity of the product, too. Not a legal obligation, but an artistic one.

[Levlik]

Either way, the fact of the matter remains that whatever FUNi did, they must've thought their additions would've made the show enjoyable in some fashion, whether we agree with them or not. I mean, it's not as if they were really aiming to put a bad product out at the time. Even when the 16:9 sets came out, I imagine someone at FUNi figured it would be a good idea to crop them since so many people own widescreen sets and would complain about the fullscreen. Obviously, many of the decisions they've made have been questionable, some more than others, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that they weren't trying to sabotage the series.

And hey, maybe they were right. There's certainly a lot of adults who are the same age as me who've grown up watching DBZ and can't imagine it without the dub writing and Faulconer Productions music. And that's perfectly fine. That's their DBZ. I guess the answer to the thread's questions is "Yes." but in this day and age does it really matter? The series' dub (Not counting Kai) has been over since 2003, or 2005 if you count the redub of the Saiyan and Namek arcs. In 2007 and 2008 backlash would've been understandable, as FUNi made a really bad decision with the cropped sets (Which, again, I feel they figured was in the fans' best interests.). Dub fans have their product they can enjoy. Japanese fans have their product they can enjoy. Everyone's happy.

Ultimately, FUNi does care about their fans. We wanted the show in Japanese. They gave us the show in Japanese with Steve Simmons translating (May seem commonplace now but was a huge deal at the time). We wanted the dub with the original music. We [finally] got the dub with the original music (And yes, I'm one of the few people who was looking forward to this, as much of a case of "Too little too late" as it was). We didn't like the cropped widescreen sets. They chose not to crop DB and GT for their sets. We wanted the Dragon Boxes. They gave us the Dragon Boxes. I think right now the only fans dissatisfied with anything are the dub fans harping over the lack of Faulconer Productions music on the Dragon Boxes. Now with the Blu-Rays out that's not an issue. Yes, the dub was in many ways "poor" but that doesn't matter. It's old. The people who enjoy it have their version and the people who don't have their version.

[penguintruth]

Ultimately, FUNi does care about their fans.

Yes, NOW they do. But it wasn't always the way things are now.

[Saiga]

I'm wondering why people get so hung up on FUNi not being accurate to the original anime created by Toei while that anime wasn't accurate to begin with.

I've explained this already. It's Funimation's place to be accurate to the anime as Toei made it. Toei's own flaws are a seperate matter. You need to learn to compartmentalize.

It's their investment, fine, but they have a duty to the integrity of the product, too. Not a legal obligation, but an artistic one.

I'm saying Toei's flaws aren't a separate matter at all, if we are going to compare the two (which some here are doing).

And they aren't even artistically obligated to stay close to Toei's version. If they want to make changes based on artistic decision, they are upholding their integrity.

I forgot to answer you before about the improvements. Personally, I enjoyed Goku's little spiel to Freeza, and I like FUNi's BGM. Another improvement would be removing Gohan's slur to Boo (calling him a retard).

[VegettoEX]

Another improvement would be removing Gohan's slur to Boo (calling him a retard).

What's "improved" about that, though? Is it just that you don't like it? Do you find it offensive? What other "language" in the show should be edited/altered to be "improved", and is that what it is actually accomplishing?

What about the ignorant, closed-world "stereotypes" showcased in the show? Should those be adjusted a la Blue Popo? Would that be an improvement?

Or would it just be different?

[Fionordequester]

Personally, it seems like a shockingly meanspirited thing for Gohan to say given how polite he normally is. Seems more like something Vegeta would say. I mean, there's a difference between say, calling someone a "bastard" and calling someone a "nigger", right? The dub dialogue seems more in character for Gohan.