The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Michsi]

Michsi wrote:
Saying he has no special techniques is also "speculation based on nothing".

Or based on the lack of actually getting to see one in a situation where he clearly could have used one.

The battle wasn't short or shorter than most other battles. And Piccolo used 2 techniques, the Bakuretsu-Maha AND Scatter Shot (or Hellzone Grenade, I'm not good with attack names) as opposed to 17's shield, that isn't even an attack.
Piccolo, like probably most fighters, resorts to techniques when hand to hand combat isn't enough, which was obviously the case for BOTH fighters. It was probably also why 17 was so insistant about his infinite energy, because he didn't really have anything else. With Piccolo getting tired, it was only a matter of time until he had the advantage in power, the only question is, could he last that long, keeping in mind that Piccolo wasn't receiving as much damage from 17 hits as he'd like + still having enough power to fuel that last attack + the attack itself.
I'm convinced the last attack would have either destroyed 17 or left him severly damaged. That's what I got from him getting more than a little worried about him being in the line of fire and his face when he saw how much power that attack packed.
About not knowing if he could actually manage to hit him with it,well, he managed to trick 17 once, he could probably do so again. Being a thinker during battle is one of his traits and 17 seemed to be of the stupidly overconfident kid type.

He says that no.17 has a good speed but his punches lack weight. This is a note about no.17 fighting skill, not his overall strength.

Which basically just means, his hits weren't that effective.

[dbgtFO]

And I repeat, Piccolo stated that 17 hits weren't doing that much damage to him as a reply to 17's infinite energy advantage.

No, you got it wrong. Piccolo stated that 17's hits weren't doing that much damage to him period. #17 first mentioned his energy never falling later, which Piccolo did not reply to.

I'd say #17 would probably win, since the only way Piccolo would win, would be with the Gekiretsu Kodan and I doubt #17 would just let him charge it up, if he's given the opportunity to intervene. As we see during Piccolo's fight with Cell, even without being able to sense ki, he still thought Piccolo's blast was a major threat.

[Michsi]

No, you got it wrong. Piccolo stated that 17's hits weren't doing that much damage to him period. #17 first mentioned his energy never falling later, which Piccolo did not reply to.

Yeah, I mixed up the panels there in my head. But the fact remains that when 17 commented on him getting tired, we know he still had tenough left power left for that one attack.
Maybe I'm placing to much faith in his skill, but I think him managing to hit 17 with that attack is far more likely to happen than 17 avoiding it. Especially since it really didn't seem to last that long to charge and 17 barely managed to avoid it without being it's target.

[Fox666]

Or based on the lack of actually getting to see one in a situation where he clearly could have used one.

That is just a fallacy. I can do the same thing:

If Piccolo had any other technique to use against no.17, he would have done so. (Which of course is proven false a few chapters after as Piccolo uses the Bakuretsu-Maha)

Yeah, I mixed up the panels there in my head. But the fact remains that when 17 commented on him getting tired, we know he still had tenough left power left for that one attack.
Maybe I'm placing to much faith in his skill, but I think him managing to hit 17 with that attack is far more likely to happen than 17 avoiding it. Especially since it really didn't seem to last that long to charge and 17 barely managed to avoid it without being it's target.

I don't see why you trust so much on the Bakuretsu-Maha.

The Bakuretsu-Maha is a extremely unnafective technique. It completely sucked all of Piccolo's remaining energy, to the point he was put unconscious by just a punch on his face. It's a desperate technique used as last resort, if you miss you loose the battle.

Besides you also seems to assume that it would have killed no.17. Like I already mentioned, we don't know how much it could have damaged no.17.

[Michsi]

Let me put it in another way then.

Piccolo and 17 are considered equal in strength

What did the battle so far show:

Piccolo
- is smarter than 17
- has a technique that could (and I'm convinced it could) have killed 17
- is more durable than 17, if he said his punches don't effect him that much

17
- has infinite energy

[hleV]

For some reason I think that #17 would've survived any of Piccolo's attacks. May be injured, but alive.

[Fox666]

Piccolo is not more durable than no.17, I am quite sure it's opposite. Piccolo only said that the punches of no.17 lacks weight.

[Michsi]

Piccolo only said that the punches of no.17 lacks weight.

If Piccolo can tank punches easier than 17 could tank his, something I have no problem believing, seeing that we didn't have 17 claim the same about Piccolo's hits, than m yes, I think he is more durable. Remember, 17 and 18 are human based, meaning they are also made from flesh and bone.

Also

I don't see why you trust so much on the Bakuretsu-Maha.

Because it's a technique that had 17 crapping his pants before and after he blasted it ?

Edit: and btw, aren't we actually talking about the "Gekiretsu Kodan"?
Isn't the Bakuretsu-Maha that wave he uses against Goku at the 23 rd tournament?

[Saiga]

Has nobody put forth the idea that Piccolo could have just been trash talking about 17's punches?

[Michsi]

Has nobody put forth the idea that Piccolo could have just been trash talking about 17's punches?

I did. Then I dismissed it.

As an author, if I wanted to make it seem like meer trash talk, I wouldn't have had the opponet show surprise at those words. Or have him say that right afte he took a few hits.

It seemed more like an observation, especially since it's accompanied by compliment regarding 17's speed.

[vegetaslegacy15]

Lets say a thirteen year old has the same amount of skill as a 30 year old at playing chess. The thirteen year old has a lot of potential while the 30 year old is just an ordinary chess player. The age is usually the difference.

Another example is the reason they say Gohan has potential. Its true his power came from him being angry but its the fact that he is abe to conjure that much power as a kid and the potential he has if he can learn to control the energy.

Hence the age makes a ton of difference.

I think movie 3 Piccolo can beat Saiyan Saga Vegeta since a). Piccolo would not be stupid enough to give him a chance to use the power ball, B). Piccolo's on equal terms with Vegeta while Goku was using short burst to fight him which to me will make a world of difference and C) Piccolo has regeneration which should rival and probably even beat out Vegeta's durability, and D) Piccolo, at this time, has really good techniques while Vegeta just really has the galick gun.

What good techniques does he have, apart from the Makankosappo (which doesn't seem to be much of a good technique given the extreme charge time)?

Well by that time he mastered the Makankosappo(or whatever that thing was he used on Nappa when he and Krillin double teamed him). Plus he can grow giant and he has all of the things he used against Goku. He is a very skilled fighter/ martial artist.

[Saiga]

Well by that time he mastered the Makankosappo(or whatever that thing was he used on Nappa when he and Krillin double teamed him). Plus he can grow giant and he has all of the things he used against Goku. He is a very skilled fighter/ martial artist.

The Makankosappo-esque move he used against Nappa didn't seem to be all that and a bag of chips, I don't know how that would help him. And turning into a giant is a useless move, hence why he doesn't use it anymore after Goku defeats the form easily. Arm stretching is another thing that wasn't useful and wasn't used again, regeneration exhausts him, and apart from that he just has generic beam attacks.

I'm going to have to give this to Vegeta, all the times he's gone up against people of equal power he's won easily apart from the battle with SS2 Goku.

[Michsi]

all the times he's gone up against people of equal power he's won easily apart from the battle with SS2 Goku.

I think his battle against SSJ2 Goku is the only with equal powers. Everyother battle I remember has him either a lot stronger or a lot weaker.In any case, I have problems remembering an example to support this.

The Makkokosappo may have taken so much time to load because he was up against someone who was way stronger than him and he had to make it count. This may not be the case if his opponent is supposed to be of equal strength.

And many always forget how he was able to level an entire island with an attack that must have cost him a lot in energy, and this after he regenerated and took one of the most severe beatings from Goku afterwards. He was able to get up , take Goku by surprise with another energy blast AND produced another big attack that was supposed to kill him.
So durability and endurance aren't characteristics that should be attributed solely to Vegeta IMO.

[Saiga]

all the times he's gone up against people of equal power he's won easily apart from the battle with SS2 Goku.

I think his battle against SSJ2 Goku is the only with equal powers. Everyother battle I remember has him either a lot stronger or a lot weaker.In any case, I have problems remembering an example to support this.

The Makkokosappo may have taken so much time to load because he was up against someone who was way stronger than him and he had to make it count. This may not be the case if his opponent is supposed to be of equal strength.

And many always forget how he was able to level an entire island with an attack that must have cost him a lot in energy, and this after he regenerated and took one of the most severe beatings from Goku afterwards. He was able to get up , take Goku by surprise with another energy blast AND produced another big attack that was supposed to kill him.
So durability and endurance aren't characteristics that should be attributed solely to Vegeta IMO.

Every character has insane durability and endurance, Vegeta is just the most exceptional in that regard (barring regenerators).

I'm pretty sure he had even battle powers with the transformed Zarbon (30,000).

[Michsi]

Every character has insane durability and endurance, Vegeta is just the most exceptional in that regard

No, not every character. And the one with the most exceptional endurance is Goku, the one who got up and fought with a hole in his chest. I never got the impression Vegeta has such greast endurance.

And I believe he was stronger than Zarbon by their second fight.

[Saiga]

Every character has insane durability and endurance, Vegeta is just the most exceptional in that regard

No, not every character. And the one with the most exceptional endurance is Goku, the one who got up and fought with a hole in his chest. I never got the impression Vegeta has such greast endurance.

And I believe he was stronger than Zarbon by their second fight.

I'd like to see you get up after being punched through a mountain. Of course they all have insane endurance and durability.

Vegeta was hit by a 4x Kaio-ken Kamehameha and his own Galick Gun (for reference that is someone at 18,000 tanking his own attack + an attack from someone at 32,000), blasted in the eye, had his tail cut off, elbowed in the eye, hit by the Genki Dama, had his back cut open, had an Oozaru fall on him and was still conscious. In addition to all the punches and kicks he took. He's definitely tough as nails.

He could have been tougher than Zarbon, after looking for a reference I see that the only reference for transformed Zarbon at 30,000 is an old RPG.

[Michsi]

I'd like to see you get up after being punched through a mountain. Of course they all have insane endurance and durability.

I was obviously not comparing them to me, but to eachother, you know, the fighters. Seriously, wasn't that obvious?

Vegeta was hit by a 4x Kaio-ken Kamehameha and his own Galick Gun (for reference that is someone at 18,000 tanking his own attack + an attack from someone at 32,000), blasted in the eye, had his tail cut off, elbowed in the eye, hit by the Genki Dama, had his back cut open, had an Oozaru fall on him and was still conscious. In addition to all the punches and kicks he took. He's definitely tough as nails.

Yes, I know all that, I never said Vegeta doesn't have endurance but not the exent I've seen so many claim. Piccolo took a Super Kamehame Ha straight on (together with HIS blast, according to your logic, which I actually don't agree with, since I don't think blasts work that way), had his arm broken, ripped off, grown back, took a heavy beating, blasted into a crater. Survived Freeza's attacks in his final form to keep him off Goku, with enough energy left to save himself and Goku from drowning.
Survived the hole in his chest from Cell and was able to make it to shore. My point, Vegeta isn't the only one tough as nails.

[perucho1990]

IDK if this was already discussed.

Skinny Evil Buu vs Kid Buu.

[FNF]

It is possible that they are one of the same but I ditched that line of thought.

It's really just opinion if Pure Evil Buu is weaker or not.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

There are various opinions on how Kid Boo compares to Evil Boo, and I can understand the logic in most of them. Some believe they're equal; some believe Evil Boo's portion of power gained from the split is nothing compared to Kid Boo's full-power, or that both of their battles (thrashings) with Mr. Boo show that Evil Boo is stronger, among other things.

I think Evil Boo is far stronger than any Super Saiyan 2, but I don't think he's comfortably at the level of a Super Saiyan 3 like Kid Boo. Since he's weaker than the original fatman, who was capable of fighting Super Saiyan 3 Goku to an extent, I don't think he's as strong as Kid Boo.