As seen by Trunks - Gohan's SSJ2 transformation.

[ItsAllGood]

I'm not sure if this is filler, but I just finished watching the Cell Games Saga episode "Awakening" and something struck me as being odd.

Trunks makes a comment about Gohan's SSJ2 transformation. The direct english quote is, "He did it right! He increased his strength without losing speed!"

Doesn't it seem that Trunks make reference to this transformation as being a "variation" of USSJ1 or 2? It would seem that he did not even recognise it as being an entirely new level, as the other Z fighters and even Cell himself recognised?

[Sun_Wukong]

I honestly think he didnt know. Both him and Vejiita screwed the transformation up. Trunks probably just thought Gohan was doing it the right way. I doubt he realized what it was.

[Dayspring]

NOBODY realized it was SSJ2 at the moment. The different levels of Super Saiyan are only introduced when Goku's trying to stall for time against Majin Buu. When Vegeta sees Goku in SSJ2 he still referred to it as the level above/surpassed/beyond/whatever SSJ.

It's why I've always entertained the theory that USSJ and USSJ2 are simply imperfect forms of SSJ2 and SSJ3. The only evidence that counteracts that theory is the daizenshuu's explanations about the SSJ levels.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

It's a dub line (or perhaps an anime line?).

[Bejiita]

UUSJ is a failed SSJ2. They get the power but lose speed because they become bigger.

SSJ2 is literally increasing power without losing speed.

[MyVisionity]

Doesn't it seem that Trunks make reference to this transformation as being a "variation" of USSJ1 or 2? It would seem that he did not even recognise it as being an entirely new level, as the other Z fighters and even Cell himself recognised?

He only says that line in the dub, I believe. And yeah, I think they were trying to say that Gohan's form was the level of power that Trunks tried to reach but failed by simply "powering up". However, while that could easily be true, I prefer to think of SSJ2 as a new level altogether, with Gohan being the one to break through the wall that Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks attempted. I think it was the "true" form beyond Super Saiyajin that Goku had been talking about all along, and I think that Cell appears to realize this.

[Dayspring]

It's a dub line (or perhaps an anime line?).

And manga. The second line of what he says in the English dub is almost the same.

[Great Saiyaman]

USSJ is infact a bad SSJ2, it's the mid-point. So acctually SSJ2 is going it right. Besides at the time Toriyama was planning to end DBZ. It wasn't called SSJ2, that came later on. SSJ2 was acctually an Ascended Saiyan of a sort at the time. Bassically the correct way to Ascend.

[Dayspring]

USSJ is infact a bad SSJ2, it's the mid-point. So acctually SSJ2 is going it right. Besides at the time Toriyama was planning to end DBZ. It wasn't called SSJ2, that came later on. SSJ2 was acctually an Ascended Saiyan of a sort at the time. Bassically the correct way to Ascend.

And if you notice, later on it's repeated over and over that the higher levels of SSJ consume to much energy. I believe this was a problem found in the USSJ forms as well.

[Eclipse]

USSJ is infact a bad SSJ2, it's the mid-point. So acctually SSJ2 is going it right. Besides at the time Toriyama was planning to end DBZ. It wasn't called SSJ2, that came later on. SSJ2 was acctually an Ascended Saiyan of a sort at the time. Bassically the correct way to Ascend.

And if you notice, later on it's repeated over and over that the higher levels of SSJ consume to much energy. I believe this was a problem found in the USSJ forms as well.

Yeah. Another point I found was that when Goku was about to transform to SSJ3, Krillin stated "What's he going to do? Double Ascend?"

Basically at the time, SSJ2 was known as Ascended Saiyan. USSJ and USSJ2 were screwups...

Besides at the time Toriyama was planning to end DBZ.

Wasn't he supposed to do that at the time of the Freeza arc? I mean...trying to quit two times....it would make sense, due to the fact he's already done a lot at the time (manga was at the ten year mark by Volume 30....)

[ItsAllGood]

Good point Eclipse. I was going to bring that up too. Also, during the demonstration of levels in front of Buu, Goku describes the second level as "A Super Saiyan that has ascended past a Super Saiyan" and then goes on to call it SSJ2 , no doubt being easier to understand for someone like Buu.

If it wasn't for the Daizenshuu explainations, then all levels of SSJ would be considered a Higher Ascended Level, which begs the question, "Were the Daizenshuu explanations of SSJ simply for ease of understanding the later levels, since Torriyama-sensei wanted to end the series at the Frieza Arc?"

[Duo]

Wow, I'm nothing short of surprised that so many dub lines have been referenced, yet so few Japanese lines. I could pop in my DVD's (I have literally every quite mentioned on DVD...) but I'm gonna do what I'm so infamous for and stick to the Manga.

Fortunatly, this is all pretty much observations and opinion.

I do not think "Ussj2" and "Ssj2" have anything to do with eachother at extensions of Super Saiyan power.

"Ussj" and "Ussj2" were power-speed trade offs...or extensions of the Super Saiyan, but not necessarily new levels in themselves. The "Ussj" aura grows slightly larger and sharper, and the "Ussj2" aura gets kind of...static-liquid like (if that makes any sense).

But, the Mastered form of Super Saiyan that Goku and Gohan achieve yields more Chi than either of these, and doesn't force a disbalance. A true "bringing out" of Super Saiyan power. Even the Aura changes for this as well. It's more of it's own form than "Ussj" or "Ussj2".

While "Ussj", "Ussj2", and "Fp-Ssj" bring out further depths of Super Saiyan power, "Ssj2" is an actual breach of the Super Saiyan wall, and is even referred to as the Super-Super Saiyan before Goku introduces numbers. The Aura changes a lot more for this one as well...we get a very sharp Aura accompanied by thick lightning coursing about their bodies constantly. Very, very unique looking when compared to the others before it.

Of course, some of these descriptions may not seem accurate to you...because the Anime pretty much makes all the Ssj Aura's look nearly the same, and the electricity effect is crap in comparison, and only used 1/1000th of the time it is supposed to be.

I have an army of Images if anyone has an interest.

And with that...I am done.

[Dayspring]

If it wasn't for the Daizenshuu explainations, then all levels of SSJ would be considered a Higher Ascended Level, which begs the question, "Were the Daizenshuu explanations of SSJ simply for ease of understanding the later levels, since Torriyama-sensei wanted to end the series at the Freeza Arc?"

Daizenshuu explanations:

Supa Saiyajin Dai 2 Dankai
(French Translation: The Second Level of Super Saiyan)
-Reached by: Goku, Trunks, Vegeta.
-Description: By enducing a lot of stress and by sending the resulting energy throughout the body in order to allow the muscles to develope, a Super Saiyan will see his strength and his speed increase. He is therefore at level 2.

Supa Saiyajin Dai 3 Dankai
(The Third Level of Super Saiyan)
-Reached by: Goku, Trunks
-Description: The muscular developement reaches its apex with level 3, insuring that the fighter has a phenomenal strength. However, this state results in a considerable loss of speed regarding his movements. Also, the amount of energy required to maintain this state is far too extensive.

Supa Saiyajin 2
(Super Saiyan 2)
-Reached by: Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Gotenks
-Description: Super Saiyan having become two times stronger. Gohan succeeds in achieving this stage naturally by making his fury explode when provoked by Cell's cruelty towards his friends. For Vegeta and Goku, it required a severe amount of training to attain this stage.

Supa Saiyajin 3
(Super Saiyan 3)
-Reached by: Goku, Gotenks
-Description: In liberating his hidden strength to the point where his limits explode, the Super Saiyan attains the ultimate stage, "the Super Saiyan to the power 3." [Huh? Why not just say SSJ3?] The amount of spent energy is consequential, and, except in the afterlife, the transformation into Super Saiyan 3 is limited in time.

[Tapion]

UUSJ is a failed SSJ2. They get the power but lose speed because they become bigger.

SSJ2 is literally increasing power without losing speed.

Yes. SSJ2 is the same as USSJ except they're muscle-mass remains the same (I guess since their ki is better contained), which allows them to retain their speed.

[gokutae]

SSJ= This form was SUPPOSED to be attained only every 1,000 years by a powerful Saiyan warrior of pure heart, however just about everyone's doing it nowadays. Your hair stands up on end and your eyes turn green.

USSJ and2= puffed up versions of SSJ. Failures because they reduce speed and suck up too much ki.

"FPSSJ"=An advancement of the regular SSJ form. It allows you to use SSj without ki consuption and the "feeling". It doesn't nesseserialy make you any stronger.

SSJ2= It's like going SSJ twice. Therefore it requires you to either train your SSJ WAY past the limit, or simply feel a burst of rage whilst SSJ. This is why Vegeta didn't go SSJ2 when Trunks got killed by Cell and why Goten didn't go SSJ2 when ChiChi died. Gohan aparently did it because he was FPSSJ. Not only does it exeed both USSJ's in terms of brute strength, your speed rises beyond SSJ as well.

SSJ3= Basically you go SSJ 3x, thus bringing your power and speed to the absolute limit.

"golden" oozaru &SSJ4= non-canon=didn't happen.

[VegettoEX]

USSJ and2= puffed up versions of SSJ. Failures because they reduce speed and suck up too much ki.
SSJ2= It's like going SSJ twice. Therefore it requires you to either train your SSJ WAAAAAAAAAAYYYY past the limit, or simply feel a burst of rage whilst SSJ. This is why Vegeta didn't go SSJ2 when Trunks got killed by Cell and why Goten didn't go SSJ2 when ChiChi died. Gohan aparently did it because he was FPSSJ. Not only does it exeed both USSJ's in terms of brute strength, your speed rises beyond SSJ as well.
SSJ3= Basically you go SSJ 3x, thus bringing your power and speed to the absolute limit.
"golden" oozaru &SSJ4= non-canon=didn't happen.

Not only is this difficult to read, but it contributes absolutely nothing that wasn't just stated three posts above. I've already deleted another one of your posts for being entirely irrelevant; I'd suggest you watch yourself.

[gokutae]

SSJ= This form was SUPPOSED to be attained only every 1,000 years by a powerful Saiyan warrior of pure heart, however just about everyone's doing it nowadays. Your hair stands up on end and your eyes turn green.

USSJ and2= puffed up versions of SSJ. Failures because they reduce speed and suck up too much ki.

"FPSSJ"=An advancement of the regular SSJ form. It allows you to use SSj without ki consuption and the "feeling". It doesn't nesseserialy make you any stronger.

SSJ2= It's like going SSJ twice. Therefore it requires you to either train your SSJ WAY past the limit, or simply feel a burst of rage whilst SSJ. This is why Vegeta didn't go SSJ2 when Trunks got killed by Cell and why Goten didn't go SSJ2 when ChiChi died. Gohan aparently did it because he was FPSSJ. Not only does it exeed both USSJ's in terms of brute strength, your speed rises beyond SSJ as well.

SSJ3= Basically you go SSJ 3x, thus bringing your power and speed to the absolute limit.

"golden" oozaru &SSJ4= non-canon=didn't happen.

better?

[Snail]

Somebody posted here earlier on how Akira planned to end the series after the Frieza or Cell arc. I think that he was considering stopping after the Cell arc, I mean, did anybody realize how his drawings in the manga during the cell games, were done with little detail? If you compare the art in the cell games to the art during the battle between Frieza and Goku, you'll notice the difference I believe.

And regarding the whole Super Saiyan topic, I think that Trunks was surprised, but due to his understanding about the Super Saiyan transformations he was able to conceive what Gohan was able to do correctly. I also agree with most of you that USSJ and USSJ2 were basically incomplete forms of SSJ2.

[MultilangDBZ]

Somebody posted here earlier on how Akira planned to end the series after the Freeza or Cell arc. I think that he was considering stopping after the Cell arc, I mean, did anybody realize how his drawings in the manga during the cell games, were done with little detail? If you compare the art in the cell games to the art during the battle between Freeza and Goku, you'll notice the difference I believe.

I didn't notice this.

I recall that Toriyama wanted to end the series after Freeza but continued due to popularity.

And why would an author finish with the least detail as opposed to the most?

BTW, please use 'Toriyama' or 'Akira Toriyama' when referencing due to formality and respect, rather than just his first name.

[Snail]

Yes of course, that was my bad, I was just in a hurry I guess LoL. Yeah you're right, why would a manga artist end off a series with the least amount of work, it just doesn't make sense, so that was my bad. I really do think that Akira Toriyama got lazy around the Cell Games arc, I noticed it right away. I also thought the cell games ended in such an anti-climatic manner, but that is in my opinion after all.