Episode of Bardock: Giant On-Going Manga + Anime Discussion

[Raykugen]

Even hair looks bad! The shiny skin is just weird. Why would they have shiny skin in the first place? Freeza must have handed lotion to all his people and told them to rub it all over. Either that or oil.

The shiny skin and the use of highlights in the colours it's something VERY OLD, that Toriyama used in a lot of illustrations, that these technique wasn't been used on DB or DBZ it doesn't matter. That's not something new, if in other times would have been more easy, the colours would have been the same as now.

[Attitudefan]

I agree as well. I don't like Yamamuro's style all that much. It looks like the characters are somewhat plastic-like or something.

I don't mind shining skin, but what bugs me the most is that bloated wide face. Rounded shapes, big nose, and planar eyes are not for me. They don't look serious.

It's the face as a whole that looks awful! The animation was great but the drawings/art style looks horrible! I hate it! The big nose is the worst part (started around the end of Z, with the big nose and large chin. thankfully the large chin is gone now)

Okay, so here's a comparison:


Might not be the best comparison. I am too lazy to pick out spots from each part to compare a proper head on picture. I think Toriyama drew Bardock two or three times so I can't get much more on that. I'd like to say that the new art gets the ears all wrong.

[hleV]

I hate the 4 hair spikes on the right side of the head. 3 looked much better.

[Titan]

The animated version is way better than the manga.
The manga version is like DBGT where the fights are solved by energy blasts.

In the animated version we see again real dbz action.
The fighting scenes are great and full of art.

I really love Yamamuro's style and the animation looked much better than in the Hatchiyack special.

[VEGETA_DTX]

Hello people of Daizex! Long time no see!

@Attitudefan, I sooo much agree with you, but personally my least favorite part is lack of sharp-edgeness...everything looks much rounder and less...I don't know how to express it...less fierce and powerful
However besides the visual aspect everything else is amazing, I love it.

I actually have wrote the entire article about the art-style comparison, with all the scene vs scene pictures, so I wanted to ask you people if I am allowed to paste here what I have wrote on my blog, because its couple of pages long...?

Thank you in advance!

[TRL]

The manga version is like DBGT where the fights are solved by energy blasts.

Oooh man I hated that in GT!! Every blast was always super thin and never had any huge impact at all, they had lost all their "oomph". The only beam in the entire series that was moderately well done was the big bang kamehameha of Gogeta, but even that one didn't have an explosion like even the smallest kiblasts are supposed to. But at least this one engulfed the opponent like a powerful wave should.

I had the feeling sometimes they were just throwing around colored balls to eachother.

[Attitudefan]

Hello people of Daizex! Long time no see!

@Attitudefan, I sooo much agree with you, but personally my least favorite part is lack of sharp-edgeness...everything looks much rounder and less...I don't know how to express it...less fierce and powerful
However besides the visual aspect everything else is amazing, I love it.

I actually have wrote the entire article about the art-style comparison, with all the scene vs scene pictures, so I wanted to ask you people if I am allowed to paste here what I have wrote on my blog, because its couple of pages long...?

Thank you in advance!

I would love to read it! I would make a thread based on art styles, but many here on this forum don't like to discuss it in too much detail unlike me.
Dragonball, the original, looks amazing in terms of art style. The DBZ stuff looks great but any new animation or art involving Dragonball looks horrid! Everything looks awkward and wrong, like all the faces and heads looks too big compared to the rest of the body. The facial features seem also out of proportion. Watch the reanimated scene where Nappa kills Piccolo. The new art of Nappa is just awful to look at!

[VEGETA_DTX]

Attitudefan, from what you wrote, I feel like we are some kind of relatives(maybe you're my ancestor who came to visit the future, or the other way around ).
I have such a hard time finding someone who actually even CARES about art styles let alone wants to discuss about them...
Hence over the years I've developed sort of a motto related to this topic:
If you care only about the shear story itself and don't really care about the art then why do you watch anime/manga? go to library and read books!

So should we open a new thread related to art styles? Or keep it here? what you say?

[VegettoEX]

I don't know where you folks get the impression that other folks here don't like to discuss and aren't interested in art styles. Many certainly are! There have been lots of great threads discussing Toriyama's artistic shifts over time, the differences in animation studios over the course of the TV series, etc. Discuss away! If it's about Bardock, feel free to contribute to this thread. If it's about other stuff, feel free to start a new thread.

[VEGETA_DTX]

It's so nice to hear that VegettoEX! I guess I'm just being uninformed about threads on this forum, which is my mistake.
But as a desperate artist soul as I am, and a huge DB/Z fan at the same time, I cannot help myself but to constantly talk about DBZ's artstyle, yet generally I don't have much luck finding interlocutors for that topic. Hopefully this will change things.

Ok here it goes, this will be one big post:

Dragon Ball: The Episode Of Bardock [ 17. Decembar 2011 ]
Author: Ooishi Naho

First things first, the idea alone is brilliant in my opinion! Not only because I personally, as a fan of Dragon Ball, always wished to see Bardock transform into a SSJ or a half-SSJ, but also because it actually fits perfectly with the whole story of Dragon Ball and makes a perfect sense!
Although the manga and the episode were unfortunately pretty short, it turns out to be the perfect piece of a puzzle of the legendary story of Dragon Ball.
Just like the first Bardock special episode from 1990th, this one expands the story about Goku, planet Vegeta, and the whole serial in general, in a interesting and a retrospective way. It actually explains a lot more about the whole legend of Super Saiyans as well as Freeza's paranoia and fear of the Saiyan race, that has previously been a bit more mysterious and under the shadow.

So as for those aspects, I give it THE BIGGEST possible grade!

HOWEVER!...(yes you guessed it)...the only complaint I have is the ART STYLE!!!
While it might be the very only complaint I have, it is most certainly a HUGE one.
Now before I start talking about it, once again I want to point out that the author of this manga and anime episode is mr.Akira Toriyama's manga illustrator colleague mrs.Ooishi Naho. Although mr.Toriyama himself wasn't directly involved in the creation of this manga/episode, he certainly contributed to it, for example he is the one who have designed episode's main villain "Chilled-sama", who represents one of Freeza's ancestors.
mrs.Ooishi Naho is also the author of the second Dragon Ball Z OVA - "Yo Son Goku And His Friends Return!!", Dragon Ball spin-off manga "Dragon Ball SD", as well as the Japanese card based arcade only video game titled "Dragon Ball Heroes" that this particular manga and episode we are reviewing today has been based on.
While I have the deepest respect for her great work and passion, I cannot say that I enjoy her art style as nearly as I do while reading and watching mr.Toriyama's work regardless of the fact that some fans surprisingly consider this new episode of Bardock as "better animated".

I'll honestly express my personal opinion about it:
I agree that it is better animated, but ONLY in terms of frame-rate and perhaps speed of motion (that's natural, because the technology evolved a lot since 1990's). Everything else regarding both animation and art style is pretty much incomparably worse than the original DBZ art style in my personal opinion. Everything looks less uniform, more rounded, and looks like made of bubble gum rather than of rocks and bricks like in the original DBZ style. DBZ is supposed to be drawn more sharp-edged, spiky, boxy, uniform, consistent, symmetrical and more mechanical-like! With smaller heads and bigger bodies! With boxier and more accurate shading details especially on the facial and muscle regions etc etc...(yes I know I am picky ).

I am not sure for the rest of the fans, but to me the visual aspect is an extremely important aspect of DBZ or of any other manga/anime/cartoon for that matter.(I like to joke around with my friends who prefer story over visual aspect - "if you don't care about anime's art style then why are you watching it? Simply go to library and read books!).

Now, since I always believed in that good old - "Pictures say more than thousand words", I will provide some of the comparison pictures that I made specially for this particular topic:

























Do you notice the difference? I hope you get the grasp of what I am talking about, I honestly think it is a heaven and earth difference in quality, but hey tastes are different, some might actually prefer less symmetrical stuff, less detail, rounder edges, which is all the matter of tastes of course, but then the question pops up - what did you really like about DBZ all these years? - Only the story aspect? - That's fine with me, but from the technical perspective you actually have never been a fan of Dragon Ball as a MANGA and ANIME(because those two are visual arts) but rather as a STORY only.
Please don't get me wrong! I do not want to downgrade anyone in any way, I am just trying to look at things from the pure technical point of view.



Comparison of the original Vegeta vs Vegeta from "Yo Son Goku And His Friends Return!!"



I have actually drew the black lines that should represent what exactly bothers me the most about the, lets say - "new-age" art style that mrs.Ooishi Naho practices, as well as TOEI/Bandai in their more recent DBZ fighting video games.
(Again, all the respect to mrs.Ooshi Naho and the rest, but I just like mr.Toriyama's art style better)


All in all, while I am obviously not much satisfied with the art style, I am really satisfied with pretty much everything else! So it is definitely a must watch! Who knows maybe in the future mr.Toriyama TOEI/Shueisha and rest of the crew decide to animate this episode in the good old DBZ style that many of us adore!

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It's so nice to hear that VegettoEX! I guess I'm just being uninformed about threads on this forum, which is my mistake.
But as a desperate artist soul as I am, and a huge DB/Z fan at the same time, I cannot help myself but to constantly talk about DBZ's artstyle, yet generally I don't have much luck finding interlocutors for that topic. Hopefully this will change things.

Ok here it goes, this will be one big post:
*snip*

Before you get in trouble from an actual mod, remove the link to the full Episode of Bardock video, its illegal and highly frowned upon here.

[VEGETA_DTX]

Oh! Thank you for mentioning that! I was aware of that rule but I just completely missed it while pasting, it was accidental.
I apologize.

[batistabus]

For all it's worth, here's a bunch of official Bardock snaps side-by-side. I tried to get them all in similar poses.



Edit: I replaced the Toriyama drawing. I originally had the "concept art" there, but it's not as finished looking as the rest of these, and I didn't really think it was a fair comparison.

Anyway, I can't really say I dislike any of these. I'd have to go with the top-right, because it looks like Toriyama's newer stuff.

[NitroEX]

I just discovered this and... did they actually call Frieza's ancestor 'Chilled'? I find it hard to believe they couldn't come up with a better name.

Oh and I dislike the new art style. It looks like they're trying to make it look like Naruto or something.

[Attitudefan]

I feel like we are some kind of relatives(maybe you're my ancestor who came to visit the future, or the other way around ).
I have such a hard time finding someone who actually even CARES about art styles let alone wants to discuss about them...
Hence over the years I've developed sort of a motto related to this topic:
If you care only about the shear story itself and don't really care about the art then why do you watch anime/manga? go to library and read books!

I feel the same way! And I don't understand why nobody sees the problem with the art style!

I agree that it is better animated, but ONLY in terms of frame-rate and perhaps speed of motion

Very true! That's how I feel when I watch some of the new stuff they have been putting out.

I am not sure for the rest of the fans, but to me the visual aspect is an extremely important aspect of DBZ or of any other manga/anime/cartoon for that matter.

I wholeheartedly agree 100%! That's what makes me love Dragonball. It's the art! It's so wonderful and when I see the new age stuff it turns me off as it looks horrible.


Look at the detail in his face in the first picture! You can feel the motion even though it is a picture. In the second picture, No detail in the face; very blown up and wide. There's no feel of motion in the art itself. It only looks good in motion (kinda)


It is seriously night and day with these two pictures. Here is a good example of Big Nose and wide face in the new-age art. It really is awful!


These two pictures are the closest you'll ever get to Toriyama's art in the show! (well, for sure the first one!)


compare this to the one above and you'll see the difference! Night and day folks, night and day! (Yes I know this is from deviantart but it's a trace of a frame from the show!)



Sorry for the large images folks!

[hleV]

There were quite a few changes in the artistic style of AT, so you should be comparing EOB's style to either one of these:

• style during Freeza's flashback of Bardock in the manga/anime;
• style present in the movie special about Bardock;
• end of the manga's style;
• newest/current drawing style of Toriyama.

Since the creator of EOB obviously didn't choose the style of the earlier arcs of DB, we're left with the 2 last options.

[SHINOBI-03]

For all it's worth, here's a bunch of official Bardock snaps side-by-side. I tried to get them all in similar poses.



Edit: I replaced the Toriyama drawing. I originally had the "concept art" there, but it's not as finished looking as the rest of these, and I didn't really think it was a fair comparison.

Anyway, I can't really say I dislike any of these. I'd have to go with the top-right, because it looks like Toriyama's newer stuff.

Don't forget Toriyama's new sketch included in the Special Selection DVD.

[ItsAllGood]

Just found my original thread after watching this special. Jeez, I think I hypothesized this years ago - in 2005 no less!

Ah, found it - http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2464

Overall, what a fantastic special for us fans. While it may have taken the element of mystique away from the whole "Legend of the Original SSJ" theory, it does provide a closed loop of how exactly Frieza knew of the SSJ potential, however fragmented that information may have become over the generations. Although as stated previously, there now exists quite the paradox in this special, in terms of Bardock being inadvertently responsible for the destruction of Planet Vegeta.

Highlights - Absolutely LOVED the sheer blunt-force-trauma Bardock lays down on Chiller. No fancy martial arts, just pick him up by the feet and repeatedly slam him into the ground, in true street-fighter style. Frieza himself would've felt those blows!

(Funnily enough, the scene where he leaves a smoking, circular depression in the ground after transforming is reminiscent of his grandson, Gohan, as he powers up against Cell many years later!)

Keep these specials coming I say!

ItsAllGood

[Titan]

I agree that the animation in "Yo Son Goku And His Friends Return!!" is awful.
I mean, the characters look like girls not warriors,because they are so slim.

[Perfect]

What does the characters looking the way they do have to do with animation? I think you mean artwork.