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[Fox666]

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[CatouttaHell]

Kaioshin should be weaker than both Yakon and Pui-Pui realistically. He was terrified of both of them and even declared they should gang up on Yakon after seeing his movements.

Babidi told Pui-Pui to save Kaioshin for him as well, which implies he knew Pui-Pui could beat him but wanted to do it himself.

Base Saiya-jins > Pui-Pui > Super Saiya-jins (Estimated) > Kaioshin > Piccolo

The encounter with Piccolo just sounds like Son is clearly patronising Piccolo, and Piccolo is asking him to stop bullshitting and to be honest with him.

The only concrete information that we can get from that is that he's on a different level than he was before, which could simply mean he's as strong as #16 or whatever. Trunks was just surprised that Son was being so frank with Piccolo.

Gohan probably assumed Kibito could put up a good fight against him based only on his strong appearance. Nothing indicates he actually sensed him like Piccolo did Kaioshin IMO.

[Kaboom]

This is a topic I end up focusing on a lot, and here's the very simple solutions I use:

Dabra gets rid of the "trash" - The tricky thing about his sequence, and one easily forgotten, is that all the heroes up on the hill are masking their power. Which means that however Bobbidi and Dabra detected the heroes, it was through some other method, most likely a magical one (since they are a powerful wizard and the magic-using king of the Demon Realm), to detect the heroes.

Furthermore, they somehow detected a "marvelous" amount of energy within the three heroes; this can only be the extreme amounts of Super Saiyan and beyond power that lay dormant within them. As we see, it took Super Saiyan 2-scale amounts of power to revive Majin Boo quickly. Goku, Vegeta, and even Gohan would certainly far surpass Piccolo's power at Super Saiyan 2 (or even 3 for Goku). This means that even if Piccolo is still far stronger than their base forms but trailing behind them as Super Saiyans, as he was portrayed at the Cell Games, the escalating upper limits of their transformed power still makes him seem like "trash" in comparison.

The only remaining yet comparatively minor problem then becomes how Bobbidi and Dabra could have caught a whiff of this power yet still thought that a scrub like Pui-Pui could stand a chance... But that could be chalked up to bad judgment or even just typical villain arrogance.

Kaioshin, a weakling? - This is another big instance of when the sequence in Bobbidi's spaceship is kind of the odd one out. Before, at the tournament, Kaioshin is set up as a powerhouse. His power (and title) scares Piccolo into forfeiting their match, and upon first meeting him Goku suspects that their group's sweeping victory in the tournament might not be so assured after all.

Then in the spaceship he's constantly freaking out and practically pissing himself in fear over opponents whom the Saiyans can take on in just their base forms.

But then again after the spaceship, when Boo's been released and the poop has hit the paddles, Kaioshin seems to man up again. He nails a solid and strong kiai on Majin Boo and suddenly seems comparatively strong again.

So what's the solution? Kaioshin's panicking while in the spaceship. He's so freaked out over these guys' association with Bobbidi that he's not thinking clearly, but above all else he doesn't want to to risk the Saiyans taking ANY damage to power up Majin Boo.

As for Kibito being unable to lift the sword while Gohan can... well, the best work-around I can think of is that while Kibito may be comparable to Gohan in terms of Ki (the Daizenshuu entry does say "battle power," after all), he's severely lacking in raw physical strength, which in contrast Saiyans have truckloads of.

Piccolo compared to Goten and Trunks - If I'm not mistaken, the original wording from Goku is that "Piccolo's coming out strong now," which would strongly indicate that he's more powerful than either of the boys.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I don't think you could make sense of anything when they're in Bobbidi's ship.

I think the whole "Get rid of the trash" could be interpreted in many ways. What we know is all of them suppressed their power when they arrived, so whatever they were sensing couldn't have been much of anything. Bobbidi thinks the Saiyans power would be enough to fill the rest of the energy meter yet believes his minions likely tapped 100 humans to get it close to half. Their understanding of things power related seemed to be skewed enough as it is.

Dabra told Bobbidi that Kaioshin could do nothing as long as he's there, so it's understandable as to why he's confident.

I don't think much can be taken from Piccolo stating he can't help the boys other than he's weaker than Super Boo. He knew they were no match for him, even if the kids had access to Super Saiyan.

I have no idea how strong Piccolo is after the rosat. All we know is he powered-up a lot. He could be stronger than 50% Goku, Super Vegeta, or anywhere reasonable. Goku, however, knew that Piccolo's power wasn't enough to do anything relevant. It was all up to Gohan, so I don't think Goku telling him it wouldn't matter means Piccolo is weak--he's just not strong enough to do anything to Cell.

[hleV]

Based on Trunks surprise, Piccolo should have surpassed the half of Goku strength along Vegeta and Trunks during the Cell Games.

I doubt Piccolo surpassed half of Goku's strength. He had sensed Goku before and I doubt he believed he could surpass that in a year in ROSAT. His function was to help only. Trunks' reaction doesn't really tell us anything besides him being surprised about something, like Goku's honesty or that Piccolo won't do any good, although he became pretty strong.

But during the Majin Boo saga, Babidi and Dabra decide to "rid of the trash" besides the saiyans, which did not transform in Super Saiyans.

Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.”

<...>

However this makes a whole confusion regarding how strong the saiyans actually are.

Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

What is that supposed to mean? Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 filled less than half of Majin Boo energy, and in his regular state he is supposed to fill over a third? How exactly that math works?

So first Dabra tells Babidi that the 3 Saiyans have marvelous energy. All 7 were suppressed at the time, so Dabra has some advanced ability to sense energy. He probably sensed the energy the Saiyans would have in their SSJ forms (or we could even theorize that they have all that energy in base forms, but not power). Now to explain the energy of those 3 being above SSJ2 Gohan's along with Babidi and Dabra's surprise about Pui-Pui's failure against base Vegeta, remember that neither Babidi nor Dabra knows how strong Boo really is and how much energy does he really need. The energy sensing of Dabra (and possibly Babidi) is still a mistery (it's magic, after all), but we could say that they can't tell how powerful the Saiyans really were, just that their combined energy was more than SSJ2 Gohan's. I think Babidi called everyone but the 3 Saiyans trash because Dabra excluded them.

Going by Kibito profile in the Daizenshuu, "his battle power is considerably high, enough to give Gohan a difficult fight as long as he wasn't a Super Saiyan." So I guess Kaioshin should be a whole lot stronger than the saiyans if they are not Super Saiyans.

But the problem is that based on the fight against Pui-pui and Yakon, Kaioshin was very surprised by how strong the saiyans are even if they don't strong in Super Saiyans. He stands around just as the new Kuririn watching the fights.

<...>

And since I mentioned Kibito, he couldn't even lift the Z Sword while Gohan and Goku could at least swing it. I am not quite sure how he was supposed to put a good fight with Gohan, is that due to some special powers?

Well, everything points to Kibito being fairly weaker than base Gohan and Daizenshuu overestimating his power.

Can you picture Kaioshin carrying that sword?

The power Kaioshin has wasn't enough to pull the Z-sword out, but I can see him not having too much trouble swinging it.

Piccolo briefly mentioned he wouldn't be able to help Trunks and Goten (who couldn't transform at the time) with Evil Boo. Not very different of Dabra saying he is trash. Or perhaps Evil Boo is so strong that it won't make any difference?

Piccolo: “I don’t think you’ll be able to depend on me, but I’ll fight too…We’ll do all we can, and die together…”

Yeah, Piccolo couldn't have helped Trunks and Goten just like Trunks and Goten couldn't have helped themselves if they actually had to fight Boo.

At least Piccolo is the dominant influence inside of Boo:

<...>

It can be argued that Piccolo intelligence is predominant over Trunks and Goten power which won't affect Boo by much. Of course if we go by intelligence, Gotenks should have zero influence (I am joking).

We could argue if Dai-Kaioshin is the dominant figure inside Boo because of his power or not, but I'd say that Piccolo dominates because he's simply stronger than Trunks and Goten. Simplicity is what we're aiming for, right?

Finally, Babidi doesn't have any power in terms of fighting ability, but he has some powerfull magic. At least he was being arrogant while confronting Kaioshin, while supposedly Dabra would be busy fighting Gohan:

Babidi: “Kikkikkiki…That’s how it is, Kaioshin…I won’t be done in like my papa was. My magic power is definitely greater than his, and I’ve got Dabra with me too…”

I don't know, it seems to me that Babidi expected Dabra's help with Kaioshin too.

[Fox666]

If I'm not mistaken, the original wording from Goku is that "Piccolo's coming out strong now," which would strongly indicate that he's more powerful than either of the boys.

I asked Herms before about that part, this was his answer:

"Strong" modifies "comings out"; ie Piccolo is coming out in a strong way. Basically it's describing the change as Boo starts showing Piccolo's traits instead of Gotenks'. Which could be because of Piccolo's strength, but that line itself isn't talking about the "why" of what's happening, just describing what is happening.

[Senzu_Bean]

That happens when you just want to see power relation, power relation, power relation... between characters in every single bit of dialogue in the story. Most power relation between characters that are actually meant to be power relation between characters are included in Daizenshuu.

Kaioshin: "His strength is far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo..."

Kibito: "His battle power is considerably high, enough to give Gohan a difficult fight as long as he wasn't a Super Saiyan."

Yakon: "Called a demonic beast, he's a monster which even Kaioshin is afraid of."

Pui Pui: "He had confidence due to his upbringing on a planet with ten times the gravity of Earth."

There's also another quote comparing Kibito and Kaioshin. IIRC it basically says while Kibito is considerable strong, Kaioshin is much, much stronger enough to kill Freeza in one blow. Thus we can conclude that Yakon is stronger than Kaioshin, Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo and Kibito, and Pui Pui... well, Pui Pui thinks ten times the gravity of Earth is impressive. But it's not like you can't conclude this through the story itself.

About Goten and Trunks... well, they aren't strong enough to handle more than one hundred times the gravity of Earth unless they're Super Saiyans.

[Piccolo Daimao]

About Goten and Trunks... well, they aren't strong enough to handle more than one hundred times the gravity of Earth unless they're Super Saiyans.

Wasn't it x150 gravity that base Trunks was struggling in?

[Senzu_Bean]

About Goten and Trunks... well, they aren't strong enough to handle more than one hundred times the gravity of Earth unless they're Super Saiyans.

Wasn't it x150 gravity that base Trunks was struggling in?

That's right. I forgot to complete the sentence after checking how much it was.

[Fox666]

Gravity (and weights in general) is not consistent through the series. Especially considering Vegeta used to train in a gravity of 300 times the Earth and is now training in 150 times as a Super Saiyan.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Gravity (and weights in general) is not consistent through the series. Especially considering Vegeta used to train in a gravity of 300 times the Earth and is now training in 150 times as a Super Saiyan.

You can't use that as an example. In the Cell arc, Vegeta was training at 300G because he was desperate to become a Super Saiyan, defeat Goku and defeat the Androids that were coming in three years. In the Boo arc, Vegeta was training at 150G, perhaps, because he was with his son and he was only training for the 25th TB.

Either way, I don't see how gravity and weights are inconsistent throughout the series.

[Fox666]

Goku couldn't train with 40 tons in the afterlife which is the weight of a cargo truck. However during the training with Kame-sennin, Goku and Kuririn could move a giant rock which probably is over 10,000 tons.

[Perfect]

Goku couldn't train with 40 tons in the afterlife which is the weight of a cargo truck. However during the training with Kame-sennin, Goku and Kuririn could move a giant rock which probably is over 10,000 tons.

Gravity difference+Fatigue.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Goku couldn't train with 40 tons in the afterlife which is the weight of a cargo truck. However during the training with Kame-sennin, Goku and Kuririn could move a giant rock which probably is over 10,000 tons.

I knew you'd say that. I think it's said in the Super Exciting Guide or something that Bukujutsu, which uses up energy, adds to the difficulty of lifting weights.

[Fox666]

That's why I say you can't use weights or gravity as a reference for power.

Goku could train at a gravity of 100 times with a battle power of 90,000. Am I supposed to believe that Trunks can't move at 150G because he is not strong enough?

As far I can tell, the thing is that if you are not used to certain gravity, it will bother you, no matter how strong you are. Yamcha should be almost as strong as Raditz and couldn't move properly in Kaio's planet, much like Goku did at first. Another example is how they complained about the RoSaT 10 times gravity a few times.

[Senzu_Bean]

Am I supposed to believe that Trunks can't move at 150G because he is not strong enough?

I believe so, otherwise turning Super Saiyan wouldn't really help him at all if power/strength didn't matter. Heck, they do gravity training to get stronger. How does that work if both aren't related? There is really no need to over thinking something as trivial as this in my own opinion.

[CatouttaHell]

Gravity feats are obviously very inconsistent.

The kids' performances against #18, Vegeta, Son Gohan, etc prove they are worlds above Vegeta from the Artificial Humans arc.

[Senzu_Bean]

Gravity feats are obviously very inconsistent.

They obviously aren't, as have been said above. Inconsistent would have been a STATED stronger character struggling under the same or less weight/gravity a STATED weaker character could handle. Such example doesn't happen at all in the story.

[Piccolo Daimao]

That's why I say you can't use weights or gravity as a reference for power.

Goku could train at a gravity of 100 times with a battle power of 90,000. Am I supposed to believe that Trunks can't move at 150G because he is not strong enough?

As far I can tell, the thing is that if you are not used to certain gravity, it will bother you, no matter how strong you are. Yamcha should be almost as strong as Raditz and couldn't move properly in Kaio's planet, much like Goku did at first. Another example is how they complained about the RoSaT 10 times gravity a few times.

Agreed.

Am I supposed to believe that Trunks can't move at 150G because he is not strong enough?

I believe so, otherwise turning Super Saiyan wouldn't really help him at all if power/strength didn't matter. Heck, they do gravity training to get stronger. How does that work if both aren't related? There is really no need to over thinking something as trivial as this in my own opinion.

Perhaps it's partly about strength, but I think it's probably more to due with how used you are to it. Even though Yamcha's clearly much stronger than Goku was when he first landed on Kaio's planet, he still mentions that he can barely stand the gravity, because he isn't used to it. Trunks, being only 8 and likely having had most of his training come from playfighting with Goten, wouldn't be used to 150G, therefore he's struggling to even walk. But Super Saiyan, with his increased power and speed, compensates for this and allows him to move freely.

However, maybe you're right. Maybe I am overthinking this in an effort to compromisingly explain away yet another one of Toriyama's plotholes.

Gravity feats are obviously very inconsistent.

The kids' performances against #18, Vegeta, Son Gohan, etc prove they are worlds above Vegeta from the Artificial Humans arc.

You're stating this like it's fact, when it's not. You've got to stop with this attitude.

[CatouttaHell]

You're stating this like it's fact, when it's not. You've got to stop with this attitude.

Goten was a good sparring partner for freaking Teen Gohan, and a Suppressed SSjin Trunks made #18 piss herself just by firing an uncharged Ki blast. It's really not that hard.

They obviously aren't, as have been said above. Inconsistent would have been a STATED stronger character struggling under the same or less weight/gravity a STATED weaker character could handle. Such example doesn't happen at all in the story.

Goten and Trunks are shown many times to be worlds above everybody from the Artificial Humans arc, including the Vegeta that trained in 300x gravity.