New Book About Akira Toriyama - The Master of Manga

[Saiga]

I just don't know. If Dragon Ball just came out today, the internet could help spread it or backlash it and cause it to fall into oblivion.

I think that wouldn't be so bad- I see that nowadays DB would end like One Piece or Berserk- recognisable in fandom, aired in countries that air an anime, manga published here and there, regular scanlations, stable fanbase with active own discussion boards, but there's no way that it could break into mainstream even for a short while.

You say that like One Piece isn't in mainstream.

[Eire]

No, it isn't. It's fairly popular among target and one of the mangas that introduce new fans to world of comics, but it isn't anything that everyone recognise.
When you are in the fandom it's easy to have a delusion that everyone knows and likes what we read, but let's face the truth- anime apart from Pokemon, Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon sit in their niche. Everyone who grew up in 90s and wasn't keen in parent's basement remember yellow haired guys with tails or blond girl in sailor uniform. I doubt if as many people have any associations with Luffy's hat.

[Saiga]

No, it isn't. It's fairly popular among target and one of the mangas that introduce new fans to world of comics, but it isn't anything that everyone recognise.
When you are in the fandom it's easy to have a delusion that everyone knows and likes what we read, but let's face the truth- anime apart from Pokemon, Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon sit in their niche. Everyone who grew up in 90s and wasn't keen in parent's basement remember yellow haired guys with tails or blond girl in sailor uniform. I doubt if as many people have any associations with Luffy's hat.

It may not be mainstream in America, but it certainly is in Japan. You weren't very specific.

[Michsi]

One Piece is hugely popular right now in Japan and I think it does well in other parts of Asia and Europe too. Or at least Germany and Italy I think.

When my friends went to Japan last year the said they saw One Piece commercials everywhere and very little anything else manga/anime . Also a survey showed once that One Piece is also popular for the age group around 30 and 40, which is pretty amazing for something targeted at 12 year olds .

[Eire]

There's a tiny room between "doing well" and "being known to everyone, even those who have nothing in common with this at all".

[Michsi]

Nothing is known to everyone, not even Dragon Ball. On another forum where they were debating One Piece popularity vs. DB popularity, at least 3 examples of japanese friends who had no idea who Goku was,were brought up, despite him being one of the most recognizable characters ever without even having to watch the show.

And "does well" can actually mean does very well too.
If we are talking western/English speaking fandom alone, then maybe. But in Japan, it's as mainstream as it gets.

[MajinKing]

Forget about Goku? You made my day During DB Goku grows like a tumour, swallowing everyone.

OK, let's explain what should be explained in my first post. Some people surely felt offended when I dared to say that Toryiama's place is not on the altar. Does the fact that one user here find his works incomplete affect your point of view? He managed to write some of the most popular and influential manga in history and I've never denied it. That doesn't change the fact that he made some mistakes- the fact if they affect the enjoyment of reading is questionable. Pairing him with mangakas able to maintain huge casts for years, develop the story before they start and making works from different genres shows that in terms of storytelling he isn't among the best. But does it matter? Do we have to put on pedestal everyone whose works we like? Why fans of Potter doesn't make a fuss about the fact that Rowling sometimes missed the point but discuss or admitt it and enjoy in spite of that?

There is no such thing as the best but your claim about him forgetting characters is false. He didn't and goku was not even the strongest character he didn't surpass everyone. Gohan is stonger then him and so is SSJ 3 Gotenks. Super buu was stronger then goku. So was kid buu he needed everyone on earths energy just to beat him.... so no goku aint as overpowered as you think. You want to know why goku had to be the hero in the end though and not gohan who is stonger? Akira Toriyama was gonna make gohan the hero in the boo saga but realised his charecter didn't fit the role. I already explained why the humans were not abandoned....

ohhh and in other comments you talk about dragonball as if it aint mainstream... you do know the ratings for dragonball kai are the highest nicktoons has ever had right?? that covers todays kids and I'm 17 years old and a lot of people my age seem to remember dragonball almost as much as someone would commonly say ohh the simpsons.... it's pretty mainstream

[Eire]

I see that you didn't understand Fox666 post, but also missed the fact Perfect and I were just wondering about possibility of DB graining it's status under different circumstances. ATM you are kicking already opened door.

[Bejiita]

Forget about Goku? You made my day During DB Goku grows like a tumour, swallowing everyone.

OK, let's explain what should be explained in my first post. Some people surely felt offended when I dared to say that Toryiama's place is not on the altar. Does the fact that one user here find his works incomplete affect your point of view? He managed to write some of the most popular and influential manga in history and I've never denied it. That doesn't change the fact that he made some mistakes- the fact if they affect the enjoyment of reading is questionable. Pairing him with mangakas able to maintain huge casts for years, develop the story before they start and making works from different genres shows that in terms of storytelling he isn't among the best. But does it matter? Do we have to put on pedestal everyone whose works we like? Why fans of Potter doesn't make a fuss about the fact that Rowling sometimes missed the point but discuss or admitt it and enjoy in spite of that?

There is no such thing as the best but your claim about him forgetting characters is false. He didn't and goku was not even the strongest character he didn't surpass everyone. Gohan is stonger then him and so is SSJ 3 Gotenks. Super buu was stronger then goku. So was kid buu he needed everyone on earths energy just to beat him.... so no goku aint as overpowered as you think. You want to know why goku had to be the hero in the end though and not gohan who is stonger? Akira Toriyama was gonna make gohan the hero in the boo saga but realised his charecter didn't fit the role. I already explained why the humans were not abandoned....

ohhh and in other comments you talk about dragonball as if it aint mainstream... you do know the ratings for dragonball kai are the highest nicktoons has ever had right?? that covers todays kids and I'm 17 years old and a lot of people my age seem to remember dragonball almost as much as someone would commonly say ohh the simpsons.... it's pretty mainstream

You're wrong, SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Gohan in his ultimate form, and also more than SSJ3 Gotenks. And Goku could well have beaten Kid Buu, the only reason why he didn't end the fight when he could have is because (being his usual self) he wanted to let Vegeta have a go. Goku even says himelf that the reason was because of this, he can't maintain the power to transform again and mucks it all up just 'cos he thougt Vegeta would be offended... so if Goku's ki were to have been restored with the final wish even before the Genki Dama was formed, having gone all out, he could have beaten Kid Buu.

One of the reasons I'm not a big fan of the Buu saga is because of the countless times it could have just ended way before it did, and most of it was dragged on either because Toriyama knew it was going to be his last part of his story, or to introduce the fusion's and all that. So yes,most of the buu story has many circumstances where the strongest character doesn't kill Buu just to let the fights happen.

For example:

- Goku was capable of going SSJ3 against Vegeta, meaning Buu's ressurection could have been prevented full stop.
- Goku could have killed fat Buu as a SSJ3 but apparently found it wrong as he was deceased and 'not of Earth' and also to let the kids have their go with fusion.
- SSJ3 Gotenks could have beaten Buu during their fight if not for their childishness.
- Ultimate Gohan could've swiftly taken care of Buu instead of allowing the kids to fuse and mess things up (this can be excused since the way it played out was believable)

I'm sure there are other potential plotholes that have been covered up well by the story-telling, but even so, I find it hard watching Goku getting battered by Majin Vegeta when he could have gone SSJ3 and ended it all there, but then that wouldn't be any fun would it?

It's also nice to see Vegetto and Buu's form whilst fighting him, 2 extreme powerrs, those 2 were actually the strongest fighters ever in DBZ, so it makes a change to see such great powers and then bringing it all down again after, since Kid Buu is less powerful than the Buu against Vegetto. Then again they could have become Vegetto again and easily killed Kid Buu, but the pride of the Saiya-Jin resulted in another 2 broken potara. I think deep down Goku knew he could win at that time.

[Perfect]

What the hell does arguing about Goku and Gohan's power have to do with Toriyama being a master? Nothing, plus the manga contradicts most of what you've said about Goku's strength anyway. If anyone wants to argue about that kinda stuff, why do it here? I just find it vividly annoying to go from arguing about Toriyama and his title to Goku and Gohan's strength.

[Saiga]

What the hell does arguing about Goku and Gohan's power have to do with Toriyama being a master? Nothing, plus the manga contradicts most of what you've said about Goku's strength anyway. If anyone wants to argue about that kinda stuff, why do it here? I just find it vividly annoying to go from arguing about Toriyama and his title to Goku and Gohan's strength.

I know this is getting off topic but what did you mean about the manga contradicting what was said about Goku's strength?

[Perfect]

What the hell does arguing about Goku and Gohan's power have to do with Toriyama being a master? Nothing, plus the manga contradicts most of what you've said about Goku's strength anyway. If anyone wants to argue about that kinda stuff, why do it here? I just find it vividly annoying to go from arguing about Toriyama and his title to Goku and Gohan's strength.

I know this is getting off topic but what did you mean about the manga contradicting what was said about Goku's strength?

It contradicts what he was saying by a long shot at least. Goku's by far weaker than Evil Buu and Gohan, there's dispute over Goku or Pure being stronger given they're implied to be rather even for a good portion of time.

http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... =8&t=18393

[Saiga]

What the hell does arguing about Goku and Gohan's power have to do with Toriyama being a master? Nothing, plus the manga contradicts most of what you've said about Goku's strength anyway. If anyone wants to argue about that kinda stuff, why do it here? I just find it vividly annoying to go from arguing about Toriyama and his title to Goku and Gohan's strength.

I know this is getting off topic but what did you mean about the manga contradicting what was said about Goku's strength?

It contradicts what he was saying by a long shot at least. Goku's by far weaker than Evil Buu and Gohan, there's dispute over Goku or Pure being stronger given they're implied to be rather even for a good portion of time.

http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... =8&t=18393

Oh woops I thought you were replying to the dude saying SS3 Gotenks and U. Gohan were stronger than SS3 Goku, not the other way around. My bad.

[MCDaveG]

Still, I would love to know, what exactly is on this many pages.
It reminds me one obscure book I saw some years before.

[Bejiita]

What the hell does arguing about Goku and Gohan's power have to do with Toriyama being a master? Nothing, plus the manga contradicts most of what you've said about Goku's strength anyway. If anyone wants to argue about that kinda stuff, why do it here? I just find it vividly annoying to go from arguing about Toriyama and his title to Goku and Gohan's strength.

Excuse me sorry to vividly annoy you.

On topic, Toriyama has influenced many others through his art and story-telling, his manga created an anime series that went on for a long time, I don't believe I know how to define the term 'manga-master' so I can't comment on that. Also, I don't read other manga, so I can't compare his work to other's since I'm not experienced in this field, I'm just a fan of DB/Z, but what I could say is that he is a very creative individual and has managed make a fictional story that is still popular after more than 2 decades.

Perfect, you seem to have gone into precise detail in your topic about who's the strongest in the Boo arc. I didn't realise you studied the details that extensively, you've even gone as far as assuming what characters were implying or thinking by their statements or making assumptions judged by their facial expressions. I was just going by the anime when saying Goku's the strongest, if Toei went as far as changing important information which determined the strength of the characters in his (Toriyama's) own story maybe he should've been more involved in what dialogue Toei were using when producing the show. Or maybe Toei should have taken more consideration when writing the dialogue.

Maybe we could argue the case that if Kaioshin could read minds then he would have known Vegeta was planning to let Babidi manipulate him from the start, as Vegeta does say that he was contemplating it from when he saw Spopovitch and Yamu's powers in the tournament, which would then mean Buu's revival could have been prevented...but then I wouldn't know if this was something Toei added aswell.