Power Level Multiplier Discussion

[Hitiro]

Oh, okay then. My mistake.

...That's kind of weird though, isn't it? I don't think it was ever implied that people who've just come back to life weren't at full power before that. Was Piccolo not at full power when they wished him back to life and brought him to Namek? How odd...

An alternate explanation is that Vegeta used up all his ki while fighting Kid Boo and being revived didn't restore that.

But aren't beings who are dead have an infinite amount of energy? Goku makes it pretty obvious that the power consumption of SSJ3 isn't a problem when he's dead because he's dead but returning to life means the energy consumption would hurt his energy supply.

[Saiga]

But aren't beings who are dead have an infinite amount of energy? Goku makes it pretty obvious that the power consumption of SSJ3 isn't a problem when he's dead because he's dead but returning to life means the energy consumption would hurt his energy supply.

Goku is exhausted by SS3, which is why it ate up his remaining time on Earth.

[Hitiro]

But aren't beings who are dead have an infinite amount of energy? Goku makes it pretty obvious that the power consumption of SSJ3 isn't a problem when he's dead because he's dead but returning to life means the energy consumption would hurt his energy supply.

Goku is exhausted by SS3, which is why it ate up his remaining time on Earth.

But Goku clarifies that if he was in other world that problem wouldn't exist. He even says he should be fine as soon as he goes back to other world, which he is. My understanding is because Goku was allowed to go to Earth they capped his energy and made it tie in with the amount of time he had remaining on earth because it was all about how the two were linked. However Goku wouldn't have a time limit in otherworld because there is no time to be ate up.

[Saiga]

But aren't beings who are dead have an infinite amount of energy? Goku makes it pretty obvious that the power consumption of SSJ3 isn't a problem when he's dead because he's dead but returning to life means the energy consumption would hurt his energy supply.

Goku is exhausted by SS3, which is why it ate up his remaining time on Earth.

But Goku clarifies that if he was in other world that problem wouldn't exist. He even says he should be fine as soon as he goes back to other world, which he is. My understanding is because Goku was allowed to go to Earth they capped his energy and made it tie in with the amount of time he had remaining on earth because it was all about how the two were linked. However Goku wouldn't have a time limit in otherworld because there is no time to be ate up.

But Vegeta was also sent to Earth when he was dead, so he wouldn't have the infinite energy that Goku has in other world.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

But aren't beings who are dead have an infinite amount of energy? Goku makes it pretty obvious that the power consumption of SSJ3 isn't a problem when he's dead because he's dead but returning to life means the energy consumption would hurt his energy supply.

Before this gets out of hand.

Its established early on in the Saiyan Arc that that the dead, or those who keep their body at least, don't have infinite energy, otherwise Goku could have just flown the whole length of Snake Way instead of taking months and months to run it. Super Saiyan 3 just puts less strain on his more durable dead body in the afterlife, so its easier for him and he needs less energy to maintain the transformation. The problem with SS3 when he uses it against the fat Buu is a special case because it eats up his magical "you can be in the living world for 24 hours" power. =P

[Hitiro]

But Vegeta was also sent to Earth when he was dead, so he wouldn't have the infinite energy that Goku has in other world.

But Vegeta went to the Supreme Kai's planet which we know can be accessed by the dead so his power would have returned. Doesn't matter now though, Devils has brought it to my attention with the whole Goku/Snake way thing.

Its established early on in the Saiyan Arc that that the dead, or those who keep their body at least, don't have infinite energy, otherwise Goku could have just flown the whole length of Snake Way instead of taking months and months to run it. Super Saiyan 3 just puts less strain on his more durable dead body in the afterlife, so its easier for him and he needs less energy to maintain the transformation. The problem with SS3 when he uses it against the fat Buu is a special case because it eats up his magical "you can be in the living world for 24 hours" power. =P

Ah, I suppose if you consider it like that.

[CatouttaHell]

Personally I feel the most logical boost for SSjin 4 is 500x IMO.

It's still a stupidly massive multiplier when you take into account that SSjin is stated to be 2.5x in GT and Son Goku's Great Ape blows out his SSjin 3.

[Saiga]

Personally I feel the most logical boost for SSjin 4 is 500x IMO.

It's still a stupidly massive multiplier when you take into account that SSjin is stated to be 2.5x in GT and Son Goku's Great Ape blows out his SSjin 3.

When is that stated? In the perfect files?

[Kaboom]

When is that stated? In the perfect files?

He's talking about when Goku transforms against Rild, who then says something like, "until now you haven't even been using half of your true power."

[Hitiro]

When is that stated? In the perfect files?

He's talking about when Goku transforms against Rild, who then says something like, "until now you haven't even been using half of your true power."

Though that doesn't necessarily mean that if Goku was using twice as much more power than he was currently using then he would be fighting at his true power. If you think about it then "half of your true power" could mean two things. It could either mean that Goku could have actually only been using half or less than half of his strength, or the other way to look at it is he wasn't doing all he could do. When somebody says "This is only half of what I can do." that doesn't necessarily mean that they can do double the amount of what they are currently doing. It could just simply mean that you haven't shown what your truly capable of.

[Kaboom]

Not to mention that "not even half" just means... well, less than half. It doesn't mean "exactly 40%," and a generic statement like that doesn't automatically translate to, "this is stated as" anything. Goku's base power could be 30%, 49%, or hey, even 2% of his Super Saiyan power.

Not that GT makes much sense in terms of power levels anyway.

[Hitiro]

Not to mention that "not even half" just means... well, less than half. It doesn't mean "exactly 40%," and a generic statement like that doesn't automatically translate to, "this is stated as" anything. Goku's base power could be 30%, 49%, or hey, even 2% of his Super Saiyan power.

Not that GT makes much sense anyway.

^
Corrected.

[Bussani]

An alternate explanation is that Vegeta used up all his ki while fighting Kid Boo and being revived didn't restore that.

That's the version that makes sense, the other one is "eh"...

Yeah--or it makes more sense, at least. I mean, Vegeta was standing right there; why would he become weaker from being revived? It never seemed implied that Goku was at less than full when he left Kaio's and zoomed back along Snake Way (although he obviously needed a senzu to replenish himself after that). Toriyama came out with some weird stuff towards the end of the Buu saga.

I thought of something else about donating to the Genki Dama. Like someone else said either in this thread or another, we don't know if all of your ki or just the genki is donated to the attack, but let's leave that aside for just a moment. If a person's battle power is 5, is 5 the most they can donate? I'm not sure if that seems right. If Goku's battle power is 3,000,000 and he launches an attack, his battle power doesn't drop by the amount he fired, right? I never thought so. Someone should be able to fight at their fullest until their stamina starts giving out. So if people are donating their ki to their limit, as Vegeta puts it, shouldn't each person be giving something like "5 x stamina" rather than just 5? I suppose it depends on how you think battle powers work.

[dbgtFO]

If Goku's battle power is 3,000,000 and he launches an attack, his battle power doesn't drop by the amount he fired, right?

No, because then Goku's battle power would be negative after firing his 924 Kamehameha against Raditz and so would Piccolo's after firing his Makankossapos and that's just stupid.

[Pantalones]

I don't think you can really put a set "power level" amount on how much each person contributes to a Genki Dama.

Plus, nobody actually contributes all of their energy (if they did, people would be passing out or even dying as a side-effect; the worst anyone actually gets is being a little winded afterward), and assuming the energy used is only "genki" and not everything that makes up a person's total ki, even if Earth's entire population did give everything they had and mass-suicide to kill Buu, it wouldn't be as simple as "(average power level) times number of people."

There's no way of knowing how much of someone's ki is "genki," so it's going to be pretty much impossible to come up with an exact formula for how much each person adds to a Genki Dama, even if you assume they do give as much as possible rather than the "just a little bit" that's usually used in the series. It's one of those things that just doesn't work very well if you try to put too much math into it.

[Hitiro]

If Goku's battle power is 3,000,000 and he launches an attack, his battle power doesn't drop by the amount he fired, right?

There are exceptions to this, certain techniques do result in a drop of battler power. If you refer back to when Nail's arm was ripped off and he regenerated Frieza was surprised that Namekians could regenerate but he also notes that his battle power dropped when he regenerated. There are probably a few techniques that also result in the same thing but as far as I can remember the whole Nail regenerating thing is the only instance we see of this. Though I could be wrong.

[Bussani]

There are exceptions to this, certain techniques do result in a drop of battler power. If you refer back to when Nail's arm was ripped off and he regenerated Freeza was surprised that Namekians could regenerate but he also notes that his battle power dropped when he regenerated. There are probably a few techniques that also result in the same thing but as far as I can remember the whole Nail regenerating thing is the only instance we see of this. Though I could be wrong.

I'm sure you're right. Things like Kaioken seem to do it; Vegeta comments that he'll lose some strength if he creates his artificial moon; Cell tells Goku his power fell after firing a Kamehameha full force; and Gohan says he lost ki after Cell disables his arm. But under normal circumstances I don't think someone's battle power falls with everything they do; kind of like how a car's horsepower isn't the same thing as how long the car can run for.

[CatouttaHell]

Though that doesn't necessarily mean that if Goku was using twice as much more power than he was currently using then he would be fighting at his true power. If you think about it then "half of your true power" could mean two things. It could either mean that Goku could have actually only been using half or less than half of his strength, or the other way to look at it is he wasn't doing all he could do. When somebody says "This is only half of what I can do." that doesn't necessarily mean that they can do double the amount of what they are currently doing. It could just simply mean that you haven't shown what your truly capable of.

We only have one instance of somebody only using "half of their power" in the part of the series that has BPs and said character was clearly telling the truth. I don't see why this would be any different.

Not to mention that "not even half" just means... well, less than half. It doesn't mean "exactly 40%," and a generic statement like that doesn't automatically translate to, "this is stated as" anything. Goku's base power could be 30%, 49%, or hey, even 2% of his Super Saiyan power.

Not that GT makes much sense in terms of power levels anyway.

Rild's statement was meant to hype up SSjin Goku so he'd probably make the claim as extravagant as possible.

I personally feel that if going SSjin gave him a 3x boost he would've instead said that Son wasn't even using a third of his power, and so on.

SSjin pretty much has to be a tiny boost too IMO, since Great Ape is implied to be above SSjin 3 judging by the way it's drawn and the reaction it gets in comparison to SSjin 3.

Great Ape - 10x base
SSjin 3 - 2x SSjin 2, 7.5x base
SSjin 2 - 1.5x SSjin, 3.75x base
SSjin - 2.5x base

Probably works best for GT IMO. Even 2x is probably way too high for SSjin 2 considering Son never once uses it (IIRC) besides two quick bursts against General Rild when he needed a momentary extra kick.

[Senzu_Bean]

If Goku's battle power is 3,000,000 and he launches an attack, his battle power doesn't drop by the amount he fired, right?

No, because then Goku's battle power would be negative after firing his 924 Kamehameha against Raditz and so would Piccolo's after firing his Makankossapos and that's just stupid.

Unless he pulls a Kikoho or explodes himself like Chaozu and Vegeta did.

[Fox666]

Even if you die, your battle power is zero, not negative.