Japanese Terms in Other Adaptations

[Rocketman]

"Kai" is a Japanese word in the sense that it originates from Japanese.

However, "Kai" as it is used in the US dub does not exist in the Japanese language. Therefore it is also not a Japanese word, but is instead a new English one based on a Japanese word.

[Rukura]

"Kai" is a Japanese word in the sense that it originates from Japanese.

However, "Kai" as it is used in the US dub does not exist in the Japanese language. Therefore it is also not a Japanese word, but is instead a new English one based on a Japanese word.

I guess the only way to settle this was if he that title literally drawn on his clothes or something....Oh, wait... (unless those kanji also gain a different meaning if shown in the english dub)

[Perfect]

So if FUNi spells Freeza, "Frieza", does that make Freeza's name "Frieza" and render his old name inadequate or obsolete? No, not at all.

[VegettoEX]

I guess the only way to settle this was if he that title literally drawn on his clothes or something....Oh, wait... (unless those kanji also gain a different meaning if shown in the english dub)

Pretty solid assessment. To be honest, I forgot that he's got his own name on his shirt. Then again, it's kind of a mix of "kai" and "o", isn't it? So Rocketman's still got something to bounce back on.

Oh yeah. I totally think the Ginyu Force should be referred to as the Milk Force, with Captain Milk, Yogurt, Cream, Butter, and Cheese.

Can we perhaps try not having a thread where you come in and roll your eyes at people?

Besides, their names are irrelevant -- they're all puns, as opposed to the actual words in Japanese, themselves.

[Rocketman]

So if FUNi spells Freeza, "Frieza", does that make Freeza's name "Frieza" and render his old name inadequate or obsolete?

I never said anything to that effect.

It does, however, mean Freeza's name is Frieza in the dub and US in general, just like 'Kai' got a new meaning.

[OutlawTorn]

Most English-only fans speak "Budokai" aloud improperly as something like "buddha-kai" (slurring over and ignoring the long "o" sound in the middle).

Really? How do they get that pronunciation from the "Budokai" spelling? It always seemed so straightforward to me.

"Kame-sennin"

This was used at least once in the original FUNimation dub (not entirely sure of the redub), as Goku is being transported to Snake Way he's asked about "Kung Fu" to which he replies it's actually the "Kame-sennin style of martial arts" he practices.

I'm terrible when it comes to the number for the Budokais, but during the Buu saga Budokai (Buu-dokai?) didn't Piccolo register as "Ma Junior"?

So if FUNi spells Freeza, "Frieza", does that make Freeza's name "Frieza" and render his old name inadequate or obsolete? No, not at all.

I'm not sure I understand, either spelling would produce the same pronunciation in English. Or did I miss something relevant on a previous page?

[MCDaveG]

Saiyan is Saiyajin in German dub, pronounced the same way the Japanese does.
Super Saiyajin for SSJ.
Also there is Muten Roshi and Uranai Baba, Genkidama and Shenlong left as is.

And here's off-topic funny part, Bubbles is Bananas

[MCDaveG]

Most English-only fans speak "Budokai" aloud improperly as something like "buddha-kai" (slurring over and ignoring the long "o" sound in the middle).

Really? How do they get that pronunciation from the "Budokai" spelling? It always seemed so straightforward to me.

That's not true, it's the same case as Pokemon, which got this é in the logo (Pokémon), otherwise english speakers will pronounce it poke as in slowpoke.
In phonetic romanization, Budokai is written Budōkai to avoid this pronounciation.

[linkdude20002001]

But the DO in budokai should still make a doh sound, not duh... That's just people being stupid. :/

[sangofe]

In the danish dub they say Saiya-jin.

[Rukura]

Pretty solid assessment. To be honest, I forgot that he's got his own name on his shirt. Then again, it's kind of a mix of "kai" and "o", isn't it? So Rocketman's still got something to bounce back on.

Yeah, it's pretty much just the kanji for for "kai" and "o" slapped on top of each other. I question if there's still any straw to grab onto at that point, though, since it's still those two kanji that are used by everyone (and by everyone, I mean Toriyama writting the dialogue and stuff lol). Even when you jump to the Kaioshin, the first two kanji there are exactly the same being used, so...stuff...and junk...and fruit-people-gods

In the danish dub they say Saiya-jin.

In the Brazilian Portuguese dub as well, actually. They just bunched it into one word and got rid of the "dji" sound in "jin", making it "Saiyajin" as how they've officially used.


Oh, does "Ma Junior" count? The "Ma" being the same as in "MA-jin" and "MAzoku". I've seen it used in quite a lot of adaptations.

[TripleRach]

"Kai" is a Japanese word in the sense that it originates from Japanese.

However, "Kai" as it is used in the US dub does not exist in the Japanese language. Therefore it is also not a Japanese word, but is instead a new English one based on a Japanese word.

It's as much an English "word" as any other term made up for recent sci-fi or fantasy fiction, like "Shanshu" or "Goa'uld." Only a small subset of people know the term, an even smaller subset regularly use it, and it will never end up in a dictionary or a real encyclopedia (Wikipedia obviously has giant sections on fictional universes).

And in the end, it's still just a shitty translation of Kaiou. There were almost 200 episodes of nothing but "King Kai" before they realized that stupid name doesn't mesh with the existence of similar gods, so it was suddenly stretched into a race name.

[Adamant]

My point on this is, there is a difference between "using words descended from another language" and "weeaboo usage of Japanese".

Could you explain that one? Because by your logic of "it's now a different word", it wouldn't fit in either one...

Kai used to be a Japanese word. It gained a new meaning and lost its old one, therefore it is a new word that resembles the old, but a new word that is still descended from Japanese.

So... can't we say that those terrible One Piece subs are turning "nakama" into an English word that means "super friend"?

[TonyTheTiger]

But the DO in budokai should still make a doh sound, not duh... That's just people being stupid. :/

Or just having different accents. I never understood the literalism people have with pronunciations. Any linguist will tell you that vowels change immensely between speakers, even when they're both speaking the same language and its a native word. And that's not necessarily a bad (or incorrect) thing. It's just how language works. I'm from NJ and lord knows I say words like 'coffee' and 'Newark' like I'm on the Sopranos. So an unrelenting dedication to pronouncing a Japanese word in one particular way (something not even all Japanese speakers will conform to) is not just unfair, it's also based on a false premise.

[DBfan4life]

Kai used to be a Japanese word. It gained a new meaning and lost its old one, therefore it is a new word that resembles the old, but a new word that is still descended from Japanese.

So... can't we say that those terrible One Piece subs are turning "nakama" into an English word that means "super friend"?

Okay, so are you, Rocketman, saying that because a japanese word is kept in the subtitles that it loses its meaning becomes lost and it becomes a new word in english? Basically like how Adamant used the nakama word as an example.

[Rocketman]

Okay, so are you, Rocketman, saying that because a japanese word is kept in the subtitles that it loses its meaning becomes lost and it becomes a new word in english? Basically like how Adamant used the nakama word as an example.

No. I'm saying that when a word is given a new meaning and loses its old one then it becomes a different word.

"Nakama" in Adamant's example falls under Japanophilia alongside "baka"/"keikaku"/etc because in those subs its meaning doesn't change.

If a hypothetical dub used "nakama" as the name for "a grouping of ten military ships" and never used it in the sense of "comrade", then it would become a new English word.

[Rukura]

Okay, so are you, Rocketman, saying that because a japanese word is kept in the subtitles that it loses its meaning becomes lost and it becomes a new word in english? Basically like how Adamant used the nakama word as an example.

No. I'm saying that when a word is given a new meaning and loses its old one then it becomes a different word.

"Nakama" in Adamant's example falls under Japanophilia alongside "baka"/"keikaku"/etc because in those subs its meaning doesn't change.

If a hypothetical dub used "nakama" as the name for "a grouping of ten military ships" and never used it in the sense of "comrade", then it would become a new English word.

So, would you say that if said word is being applied in the same way in both versions, like "kami" or "kai", would have to be grouped together with "baka" and "nakama"?

[Rocketman]

Kai is not being used the same way, as I've said.

Kami is a special case, because cultural sensitivities trump logic. It should be translated, but there is no fucking way a kid's cartoon would get released in the US with the characters saying "God is dead, Satan is the world's true hero".



I think it's interesting how no matter what examples I bring from other languages who had words morph in pronounciation, spelling or meaning when English took them, the language that must be preserved in its original purity is Japanese. Hmmmmmm.

[Rukura]

Kai is not being used the same way, as I've said.

Kami is a special case, because cultural sensitivities trump logic. It should be translated, but there is no fucking way a kid's cartoon would get released in the US with the characters saying "God is dead, Satan is the world's true hero".

Now, that's just sad. Saying something like that walks a really fine line between denial and dumb ignorance. It's very clear (too clear) that both were used, in Japanese, for the same. exact. reason.

They turned "Kaio" into "King Kai". Keep in mind, and try to keep up with me because you seem to miss the point that, KAIO IS NOT A NAME. It's a title. I'm sure they say "he's a Kai" in the dub at some point...because he's not the only one. There are 4 Kaios + 1 that rules them + the Kaioshins, which have the same kanji, with the same meaning, in their names. They say that a Kai is a "celestial whatchamacallit"? Yes, because that's the job description of a Kaio. Just like they didn't translate something like Kami, they left it at King Kai to go around refering to him as a deity, and the same happened with the Kaioshin.

How you cannot admit, or even seem to want to wrap your head around the concept, that it's another Japanese word kept in the dub "just because" (and because of soccer moms) is kinda laughable, really.

I think it's interesting how no matter what examples I bring from other languages who had words morph in pronounciation, spelling or meaning when English took them, the language that must be preserved in its original purity is Japanese. Hmmmmmm.

And yet, the one you're defending is actually in Japanese and shouldn't. Do you NOT see the irony in that?...

[Rocketman]

And yet, the one you're defending is actually in Japanese and shouldn't. Do you NOT see the irony in that?...

It's not in Japanese. "Kai" as used in the dub has no equivalent in any other language, therefore it is a new English word. (Ignoring that "Kai" already existed in English before Dragonball as a name descended from the Latin Caius.)

If they called King Kai "Kaio(h)" like they kept "Kami" unaltered, you would have a point. But they didn't.





Also you mispronounced Caius when you read that sentence up there. The correct original pronunciation is "Keys". Y'know, since words never, ever change when moving between languages.