Japanese Terms in Other Adaptations

[Rukura]

And yet, the one you're defending is actually in Japanese and shouldn't. Do you NOT see the irony in that?...

It's not in Japanese. "Kai" as used in the dub has no equivalent in any other language, therefore it is a new English word. (Ignoring that "Kai" already existed in English before Dragonball as a name descended from the Latin Caius.)

If they called King Kai "Kaio(h)" like they kept "Kami" unaltered, you would have a point. But they didn't.

So which is it? Is it a "new" english word used specifically in Dragon Ball to describe someone as "celestial what's-his-face", or is it derived a latin name that means "rejoice"? (also, your sad attempt to claim that "Kai" is an english name is funny lol)

If they had visually censored the kanji on his clothes that spell out his name like it is used for the dub, you would have a point. But they didn't.
Thus it is still a japanese word used in the english adaptation.

[TripleRach]

I think it's interesting how no matter what examples I bring from other languages who had words morph in pronounciation, spelling or meaning when English took them, the language that must be preserved in its original purity is Japanese. Hmmmmmm.

Please don't start any "You all worship Japan" nonsense.

Your examples have all been common loan words. Baton Rouge is a pretty big and significant city, and I can say with certainty that more people are familiar with it than a cartoon term like "Kai." To suggest that it's on par with widespread names and words is absolutely ridiculous to me. It's like comparing "Berbil" to "Topeka."

FUNimation wasn't being a creative genius or fulfilling linguistic needs. They had an objectively inaccurate translation, and when it came back to bite them in the ass, they turned it into another objectively inaccurate translation. The fact that you keep trying to rationalize it is as anything else is completely baffling to me.

[Rocketman]

So which is it? Is it a "new" english word used specifically in Dragon Ball to describe someone as "celestial what's-his-face", or is it derived a latin name that means "rejoice"? :roll:

It was an independently-created word spelled the same as a rare currently-existing name.

(also, your sad attempt to claim that "Kai" is an english name is funny lol)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Ryssdal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_T._Erikson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Bird

If they had visually censored the kanji on his clothes that spell out his name like it is used for the dub, you would have a point. But they didn't.

What does the kanji matter?

Thus it is still a japanese word used in the english adaptation.

How can it be a Japanese word when its definition does not exist in Japanese?

Please don't start any "You all worship Japan" nonsense.

What is it then, when Caesar/Kratos/Orleans can be said "wrongly" but Saiyajin must be pronounced as its native language does? Anything from any other language that gets mutated, a-ok. But if it's Japanese the crew here goes wild.

FUNimation wasn't being a creative genius or fulfilling linguistic needs. They had an objectively inaccurate translation, and when it came back to bite them in the ass, they turned it into another objectively inaccurate translation. The fact that you keep trying to rationalize it is as anything else is completely baffling to me.

How much grand feeling needs to be put in the transfer of words for their transfer to be legitimate? The term "Pandora's Box" is a mistranslation too, but I don't see the cryin' about that.

The manner in which it was adapted does not matter. All that matters is the word now exists.

[Rukura]

Thus it is still a japanese word used in the english adaptation.

How can it be a Japanese word when its definition does not exist in Japanese?

If they had visually censored the kanji on his clothes that spell out his name like it is used for the dub, you would have a point. But they didn't.

What does the kanji matter?

Clearly you do not wish to make sense out of any of this.

I will admit that I didn't know that "Kai" could actually be used as an english name. That's new to me. BUT it's still TOTALLY unrelated to the point you were trying to make, since it has NO CONNECTION in it's origin nor it's original meaning. We're talking about that japanese series "Dragon Ball" on this forum, remember? On the other hand, those kanji that don't matter to you are what give that name (or, to be more exact, that TITLE) the context, the meaning and the spelling.

[TripleRach]

What is it then, when Caesar/Kratos/Orleans can be said "wrongly" but Saiyajin must be pronounced as its native language does? Anything from any other language that gets mutated, a-ok. But if it's Japanese the crew here goes wild.

I don't really know anything about Kratos, but names as common and old as Caesar and Orleans are lost causes at this point. Meanwhile, Dragon Ball is very modern and niche in comparison, and thanks to advances in globalization and technology, we have easy access to the original pronunciations, so it's not too late to campaign for change.

How much grand feeling needs to be put in the transfer of words for their transfer to be legitimate? The term "Pandora's Box" is a mistranslation too, but I don't see the cryin' about that.

The manner in which it was adapted does not matter. All that matters is the word now exists.

Again, "Pandora's Box" is very old and very widespread. I know the term and story fairly well and I had no clue it was an error. I would cry about it, but in 2012 it would take mass hypnosis to correct people on that, and I'm not exactly an active Ancient Greece nerd. Dragon Ball and its dub terms are nowhere near that level of fame, though. Most of them don't exist in the English manga or subtitles, so they don't even affect the whole franchise. And again, globalization and technology make it very easy to discover and try to correct errors with something so modern and niche.

[OutlawTorn]

Most English-only fans speak "Budokai" aloud improperly as something like "buddha-kai" (slurring over and ignoring the long "o" sound in the middle).

Really? How do they get that pronunciation from the "Budokai" spelling? It always seemed so straightforward to me.

That's not true, it's the same case as Pokemon, which got this é in the logo (Pokémon), otherwise english speakers will pronounce it poke as in slowpoke.
In phonetic romanization, Budokai is written Budōkai to avoid this pronounciation.

I did say straightforward "to me" but Pokemon gets mispronounced anyway as Poh-kee-MAN, which makes no sense. I mean, there is no "A" in "Pokemon." While I'm sure there would have been mispronunciations at the start, once people continually heard the word spoken aloud, they would know how to say it. Technically, it hasn't ever been pronounced correctly, most commonly coming off as "Poh-keh-mon" when "Pokémon" would be pronounced "Poh-kay-mon"

However, with "Budokai" I simply cannot see how the "do" could be pronounced "duh" or "dah." For example, with the musical scale: Do re mi, etc. it isn't pronounced "Duh re mi" or "Dah re mi" or even as you would normally pronounce "do."

[TonyTheTiger]

I did say straightforward "to me" but Pokemon gets mispronounced anyway as Poh-kee-MAN, which makes no sense.

That's probably just the nature of unfamiliar words entering pop culture and people (mostly older adults) being unfamiliar with what it is their kids are into. "What are these pokeemans? Is that on the Sony Gamestation?"

[Rocketman]

On the other hand, those kanji that don't matter to you are what give that name (or, to be more exact, that TITLE) the context, the meaning and the spelling.

The kanji says "Kaio(h)", not Kai.

[Rukura]

On the other hand, those kanji that don't matter to you are what give that name (or, to be more exact, that TITLE) the context, the meaning and the spelling.

The kanji says "Kaio(h)", not Kai.

You don't say? Here's the thing, though. That symbol on his clothes are actually two kanji on top of each other, 界王. Wanna take a wild guess at what that first one is?
(Hint: Starts with a "k", ends with an "i", and the kanji next to it is "king")

[Rocketman]

You don't say? Here's the thing, though. That symbol on his clothes are actually two kanji on top of each other, 界王. Wanna take a wild guess at what that first one is?
(Hint: Starts with a "k", ends with an "i", and the kanji next to it is "king")

So if I were to put the English word "handy" (convenient) next to the German word "Handy" (cellphone), you would claim that the German word is invalid and wrong and they all need to stop using it because that's not what the word means in English, right? After all, the Germans got that term because "Handy-Talkie" was written on the handheld radios US soldiers carried in the Second World War.

Hm. A language takes the first part of a foreign title....assigns a completely new meaning to that half-title word and changes it into a noun for an entire class of similar items..... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[Rukura]

You don't say? Here's the thing, though. That symbol on his clothes are actually two kanji on top of each other, 界王. Wanna take a wild guess at what that first one is?
(Hint: Starts with a "k", ends with an "i", and the kanji next to it is "king")

So if I were to put the English word "handy" (convenient) next to the German word "Handy" (cellphone), you would claim that the German word is invalid and wrong and they all need to stop using it because that's not what the word means in English, right? After all, the Germans got that term because "Handy-Talkie" was written on the handheld radios US soldiers carried in the Second World War.

Hm. A language takes the first part of a foreign title....assigns a completely new meaning to that half-title word and changes it into a noun for an entire class of similar items..... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

You're talking about an adaptation of a japanase show using a japanese word! What does any of that non-sensical crap have anything to do with it? Do you not see how that makes no freaking sense? It is the title of the same character(s) in both versions! They're not referencing the swiss double strawberry milkshake from the Netherlands that happens to be called "kai", they're literally refering to the same thing.

Look, you clearly think you're right for whatever twisted made-up reason that for some reason is connected to....uhm....handheld radios from World War 2. They say ignorance is bliss so good luck with that.

[Rocketman]

You're talking about an adaptation of a japanase show using a japanese word! What does any of that non-sensical crap have anything to do with it?

I assume there's some kind of language barrier going on here, which is no reason to get rude.

I am saying that it is no longer a Japanese word because it has been adapted into a new English word. English "Kai" is a separate entity from Japanese "Kaio" in the same way that German "Handy" is a separate entity from English "Handy-Talkie".

[Attitudefan]

I don't really know anything about Kratos, but names as common and old as Caesar and Orleans are lost causes at this point. Meanwhile, Dragon Ball is very modern and niche in comparison, and thanks to advances in globalization and technology, we have easy access to the original pronunciations, so it's not too late to campaign for change.

That's total garbage! Greek is very similar to it's ancient variation. Kratos, would then, still sound like it should without it being lost because it is ancient. Same goes for Caesar, plus it is also used in languages such as Russian or Ukrainian. Orleans... it's modern French for god sakes! I just don't know how to respond to that one....

[TripleRach]

That's total garbage! Greek is very similar to it's ancient variation. Kratos, would then, still sound like it should without it being lost because it is ancient. Same goes for Caesar, plus it is also used in languages such as Russian or Ukrainian. Orleans... it's modern French for god sakes! I just don't know how to respond to that one....

I was talking about the English pronunciations specifically. After all this time, no one is going to get every native English speaker in the world to suddenly change their pronunciation of "Caesar." It's not like they'll all travel to Greece or France one day and realize the error of their ways. And New Orleans is a major US city, so the pronunciation of that will definitely never change back to the French way.

You can't just wave your hand and get hundreds of millions of people to suddenly change their ways.

[Attitudefan]

That's total garbage! Greek is very similar to it's ancient variation. Kratos, would then, still sound like it should without it being lost because it is ancient. Same goes for Caesar, plus it is also used in languages such as Russian or Ukrainian. Orleans... it's modern French for god sakes! I just don't know how to respond to that one....

I was talking about the English pronunciations specifically. After all this time, no one is going to get every native English speaker in the world to suddenly change their pronunciation of "Caesar." It's not like they'll all travel to Greece or France one day and realize the error of their ways. And New Orleans is a major US city, so the pronunciation of that will definitely never change back to the French way.

You can't just wave your hand and get hundreds of millions of people to suddenly change their ways.

I had a feeling you would say that! Haha! Well you're right. If the dub does pronounce it a certain way, doesn't it make it the same as the example you talked about?

[TripleRach]

I had a feeling you would say that! Haha! Well you're right. If the dub does pronounce it a certain way, doesn't it make it the same as the example you talked about?

No, because all those examples are really old and extremely famous. Dragon Ball is nowhere near that level in the English speaking world, and it never will be because its peak in popularity was years ago. People will never learn about Saiyans in history books the same way they'd learn about Caesar or New Orleans.



...Wow, we have all really derailed this thread. I guess I'm gonna stop here.

[Perfect]

I dunno how you could compare any entertainment franchise to a big name city or famous historical figure billions of people know. Maybe if Goku were a real person and Dragon Ball was based on his real life exploits, then it'd be uncanny with how recognizable things from the series would be. Granted if you believe in that multiverse stuff, that's entirely possible but uh, let's stick to our own universe. When it comes to anime, worldwide, Dragon Ball's probably as big as it's gonna get. A good portion of the world may say/think, "Hey, I've seen that spiky haired guy before!" or "Ah, I've heard of that series before,"

However, when it comes to things from a dub in a random country, such as the US, well it's just minuscule and won't make reference outside the fanbase and probably exterior genre fans, etc.

[MCDaveG]

I think this debate is completely pointless. English completely ignores foreign pronounciatin and reads lot of names in manner, that I can't understand sometimes, when they are speaking with me in person.
Yeah, ''Cézar'' is Seehzaar, ''Jill Vern'' is Jules Verne and ''Dima'' si Dyuhmuhs. I mean Caesar, Jules Verne and Alexander Dumas respectively. I really don't like this and it beats the hell out of my ears but what can you do with it when it's set like this for I don't know how many decades.

[dbboxkaifan]

I did say straightforward "to me" but Pokemon gets mispronounced anyway as Poh-kee-MAN, which makes no sense. I mean, there is no "A" in "Pokemon." While I'm sure there would have been mispronunciations at the start, once people continually heard the word spoken aloud, they would know how to say it. Technically, it hasn't ever been pronounced correctly, most commonly coming off as "Poh-keh-mon" when "Pokémon" would be pronounced "Poh-kay-mon"

However, with "Budokai" I simply cannot see how the "do" could be pronounced "duh" or "dah." For example, with the musical scale: Do re mi, etc. it isn't pronounced "Duh re mi" or "Dah re mi" or even as you would normally pronounce "do."

I always thought Pokémon was pronounced "Poh-ké-mon" (pressing on the letter e) or alternatively, Po-key-mon.

Budokai = Bu-dó-kai never heard of people pronouncing it like "buddha-kai", besides it doesn't sound natural to me, as I say it.

This really depends on each one's accent and how it's said.

[Puto]

I used to pronounce the 'do' in Budokai like the English word 'do' before I knew better, and stressing on the 'ka.' instead of the 'do.' Same thing with Tenkaichi -- used to pronounce it Ten-keye-chi instead of Ten-ka-ichi.