The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[In Brightest Day]

No offence, but that's getting almost as old as the Chuck Norris jokes.

It isn't nearly as ridiculous as "Yamcha always loses no matter what."

True, but it isn't nearly as funny as "Yamcha always loses no matter what."

When it literally takes away from a legitimate discussion/debate and it's been repeated billions of times, it's no longer funny.

[dario03]

I could swear that in the funimation dub of GT the old kai said that SS4 Goku was the strongest fighter he had ever seen? Does anybody else recall that? Was that just a dub line? Because if he did then I would think that would make SS4 Goku stronger than Vegetto (which is crazy if we go by the power times power for Vegetto).

[CatouttaHell]

Who cares what the Funimation dub said? It's non-canon.

[dario03]

Who cares what the Funimation dub said? It's non-canon.

A lot of people consider GT itself to be non-cannon. But ignoring that did you miss the part where I said "was that just a dub line?"

[CatouttaHell]

I'm pretty sure everybody is in agreement that GT is not a cannon.

[dario03]

I'm pretty sure everybody is in agreement that GT is not a cannon.

Thank you for the ever so useful posts. Are you always this helpful? Now can we please get back on topic?

[Piccolo Daimao]

No offence, but that's getting almost as old as the Chuck Norris jokes.

It isn't nearly as ridiculous as "Yamcha always loses no matter what."

I haven't heard that one as much, so I think they're as ridiculous as each other. At least one thing I can say about is that even in the series itself, it seems to be treating as a running gag, when Yamcha is about to fight Shen and Bulma says, "At least Yamcha's guaranteed to get past the first round finally!" or Yamcha choosing not to enter the 25th TB, saying that he'll just embarrass himself. Although you could argue the latter was just that, like Kuririn and everyone else who wasn't a Saiyan, he'd just fallen so far behind the Saiyans that it'd be like asking to be floored. Even Kuririn only entered because #18 forced him to and entered herself for the money.

But yeah, it's not funny and it doesn't contribute anything to an intelligent discussion.

No offence, but that's getting almost as old as the Chuck Norris jokes.

Who's joking? Vegetto's supremacy is fact.

No...seriously. That's getting old now. I know you're a Vegetto fanboy, but actually try to give a legitimate reason for why SSj4 Goku couldn't win against SSj Vegetto rather than just repeating something that's almost risen to unfunny meme-like status.

[Pantalones]

Whether or not SSj4 Goku could ever beat either of the end-of-DBZ Goku/Vegeta fusions (I don't believe there's a huge gap in power between them--is there some difference? probably... but they're not on entirely different levels from each other) depends on a lot of things.

How much stronger did Goku actually get between the end of Z and start of GT? GT really doesn't make much sense power-comparison wise (especially when it comes to base Goku), so it's really hard to make any sense of how strong anyone is.
Goku and Gohan weren't too far off at the Cell Games (Goku was at least a little weaker and couldn't go SSj2, but it wasn't anything like the gap between those two and the others), and in seven years Goku didn't seem to get vastly stronger--he and Vegeta both reached or surpassed Gohan's Cell Games level, but not by a huge amount. Which makes it seem like, by that point in the series, the enormous growths in power that the Saiyans got before have started to slow way down. Of course, GT does have 15 years between it and the Buu saga, so it's possible that Goku got a bigger boost than he did between Cell and Buu; he needed SSj3 to be able to beat either Fat Buu or Kid Buu before (probably putting his SSj2 between base and SSj Gotenks, and his SSj3 around SSj Gotenks' level), so if he did get a decent amount stronger, maybe he's advanced enough that he could have a good chance at beating either of these two Buus in SSj2 now. Which would mean that at SSj3, he... still probably wouldn't be able to beat Super Buu, though he'd at least put up a fight against the initial Super Buu before any absorptions happened and probably even be able to cause some decent damage (likely more than what SSj Gotenks was capable of... he still wouldn't be smacking Buu around like SSj3 Gotenks or Gohan were able to, though.) If Goku still hasn't surpassed Super Buu yet in SSj3, then it seems unlikely that one more transformation would be enough to close the gap between him and his absurdly powerful fusions with Vegeta.
Of course, with how GT is, it's entirely possible that they intended Goku to be much stronger than that already. He did claim that Rilldo was "even more powerful than Majin Buu." He didn't specify which form of Buu, but the fact that he was fighting him in regular Super Saiyan makes it seem like GT Goku's at least twice as strong as my "assuming Goku's growth rate stays about the same as during the Cell Games timeskip" estimate, which would mean his SSj3 is now about equal to SSj3 Gotenks' (if not stronger) and even in SSj he'd be strong enough to beat Fat Buu or Kid Buu (which I guess means he was talking about one of those Buus when he said "stronger than Majin Buu.")

The second big question would be: how much stronger does SSj4 make you? It'd make sense that Golden Oozaru is a 500x boost (going by Oozaru being 10x and Super Saiyan being 50x), but there's really no indication of just how strong SSj4 itself would be. If it's 500x just like Golden Oozaru, then SSj4 Goku (assuming his SSj3 was equal to Gotenks' SSj3 in the Buu saga) would be stronger than anyone in DBZ... except for the Goku/Vegeta fusions, and possibly even Super Buu after absorbing Gohan, depending on just how much of a boost Buu's absorptions give him (he was beating up Gohan after absorbing Gotenks, despite the huge gap in power between them previously... so Buu definitely does get a lot stronger when absorbing someone above his own level.) I guess it's probably safe to say he'd be stronger than base Vegerot (unless you go by the anime and assume that even in base he's stronger than Super Buu...), but not Super Saiyan.
Now, if Super Saiyan 4 is a bigger boost than 500x, that's when the idea of SSj4 Goku actually being stronger than anyone in DBZ really becomes possible (without requiring Goku to become absurdly stronger between Z and GT, anyway.) If it's a 1000x boost instead, I wouldn't be too surprised if he was stronger than the Goku/Vegeta fusions were in regular Super Saiyan, or at least equal to them. Of course, the fusions would also have access to SSj2 and SSj3, so... SSj4 Goku would still be weaker overall. But it is possible that SSj4 Goku is stronger than SSj1 Vegerot/Gogeta was, depending on just how strong GT Goku is and just how much stronger SSj4 makes him.

(Of course, as Goku and Vegeta get stronger so do their fusions... so if they fused in GT, they'd be far far stronger than SSj4 Goku alone. So I guess technically SSj4 Goku can never surpass Goku and Vegeta's fusions, he can only surpass the level that these fusions had 15 years or so in the past.)

[FNF]

It's stated fact that Super Baby 2 (the one with the huge shoulder things but before Baby's last form) is the strongest fighter in the series up until Super Baby 3, etc etc.

So in terms of GT at least, the Vegetto is invincible shit is just plain boring.

[Senzu_Bean]

Vegetto > Everyone and everything, ever.

It might be old and somewhat ridiculous but it's true and much less ridiculous than over-analyzing Vegetto's strength. He is Vegetto, deal with it.

[Kid Buu]

It's stated fact that Super Baby 2 (the one with the huge shoulder things but before Baby's last form) is the strongest fighter in the series up until Super Baby 3, etc etc.

So in terms of GT at least, the Vegetto is invincible shit is just plain boring.

It's GT, with how many plotholes it has you can't trust any statement as fact.

[Rocketman]

No...seriously. That's getting old now. I know you're a Vegetto fanboy, but actually try to give a legitimate reason for why SSj4 Goku couldn't win against SSj Vegetto rather than just repeating something that's almost risen to unfunny meme-like status. :roll:

Vegetto fixes reality itself with a punch and retained all his power even when Buu removed all his organs.

SS4 Goku is scared of a fan blade and a collapsing building.

[CatouttaHell]

Base Goku overpowered General Rild, who was stated to be above Gohan-Boo and is probably on par with Base Vegetto at the very least.

There's no way Base Vegetto would be able to take out a powered up Ultimate Gohan who gained SSjin on top of his previous power either, even going by his Anime base power.

I think people just underestimate the kind of haxes Son Goku got in the Dark Dragon Balls arc. The members of Mega Cannon Sigma had the data of SSjin Goku (Imegga) fighting Redjic and believed they'd be able to easily beat him. Yet Nutt was taken out by even Base Pan, who he stated had power beyond what was in the data.

Base Goku easily tooled the remaining members of Mega Cannon Sigma, who were stated to be a good deal above Nutt. Even after they all fused into one being he casually defeated them.

Base Goku (M2) >>> Super Mega Cannon Sigma >>> Captain Neji >> Veise ~ Rivet >>> Base Pan >> Nutt >> SSjin Goku (Imegga) >>> Base Goku (Imegga) > Base Goku (Beginning of GT) > Pure Boo

Even considering Base Gotenks (Post) > SSjin Gotenks (Expected) > SSjin Gotenks (Pre) > SSjin 3 Goku it makes perfect sense for Son Goku to be at least closing in on Vegetto at this stage in the game.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Vegetto > Everyone and everything, ever.

It might be old and somewhat ridiculous but it's true and much less ridiculous than over-analyzing Vegetto's strength. He is Vegetto, deal with it.

Doesn't matter. Don't just start spouting crap like "Vegetto wins because he's Vegetto lol" or "Vegetto is invincible roflstomp god". It may be true, but you have to inject more intelligence than that into your posts when we're trying to talk sensibly in a legitimate discussion.

I mean, people rag on the Broli fanboys for banging on about how strong he is. Whether or not they're overestimating his strength doesn't matter. It's the way you go about it that counts. I don't mean to get personal here, but Rocketman, you sound like the Vegetto equivalent of a Broli fanboy at times.

[Fox666]

SS4 Goku is scared of a fan blade and a collapsing building.

And hurt his hand with glass. His battle power is below 10.

[Rocketman]

The difference is that Broly is not strong, while Vegetto is. I mean, honestly. CoH up there is claiming that Gohan could beat Vegetto, when Vegetto's entire existance is beating the absolute shit out of Gohan with no effort.

You, sir, are the fanboy for claiming that Goku alone is better than Goku combined with Vegeta.

[Fox666]

I wonder why people keep saying "base Goku GT >>>". During all fillers and movies, for some reason the saiyans can fight equally while in their Super Saiyan or regular forms. There is no deep meaning about "base power" here, it is just bad writing.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The difference is that Broly is not strong, while Vegetto is. I mean, honestly. CoH up there is claiming that Gohan could beat Vegetto, when Vegetto's entire existance is beating the absolute shit out of Gohan with no effort.

You, sir, are the fanboy for claiming that Goku alone is better than Goku combined with Vegeta.

Depends on what you mean by "strong". He's strong in that, in DBZ Movie #8, he ploughed through SSj Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo effortlessly, and in DBZ Movie #10, he wrecked SSj2 Gohan. But he's not strong in that he's not as strong as SSj3 Gotenks or someone of a similarly ridiculous level, which is what many Broli fanboys profess. I assume you're referring to the latter.

And I never claimed that SSj4 Goku is stronger than SSj Vegetto (although, even if I did, that wouldn't make me a fanboy just because I'd be disagreeing you, so your point is immature and void ). Just that I was tired of your redundant and monotonous comments about, yet again, Vegetto being the strongest thing ever, or Vegetto winning because he's Vegetto, etc. It just gets boring after a while. I was simply comparing it to the similar comments of Broli fanboys.

[Fox666]

Phew, the thing is that Broli is strong as a villain of his own movie. If he was the villain of movie 13, he would be stronger than Gotenks, if he was the villain of movie 4, he probably would barely be able to handle a regular Super Saiyan. For that reason I think it's flawed to measure the strength of a movie character.

[CatouttaHell]

The difference is that Broly is not strong, while Vegetto is. I mean, honestly. CoH up there is claiming that Gohan could beat Vegetto, when Vegetto's entire existance is beating the absolute shit out of Gohan with no effort.

Z Gohan would be toilet paper to even Base Vegetto (manga or Anime,) that I do agree with. GT Gohan, however is far stronger than that Gohan as he increased his base form's power and discovered how to go SSjin and SSjin 2 on top of it.

Also, I never said that even GT Gohan can beat Vegetto, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from...

You, sir, are the fanboy for claiming that Goku alone is better than Goku combined with Vegeta.

I justify Son Goku being above Vegetto with a mountainload of facts, while you just say "Vegetto > Goku because he's Vegetto."

I don't see how that makes me the fanboy here.