Muten-Roshi weaker than Son Gohan?

[Fox666]

What the hell, a dog has a body? And is this a jellyfish in the background?! This makes things even more confusing...
Maybe the souls can change shape, which would explain why Chichi, Bulma, Videl and Dabra have their upper body and the villains in Hell having their full bodies. Maybe when your soul takes your bodies shape, you retain the power you had when you were alive, which makes sence in why Oob has Pure Boo's power, however you can't make stronger your "body-soul". So if you take your living body while you are dead, you can make it stronger, and even use this new strengh if you come back to life.

I prefer Herm's Yu Yu Hakusho view...where even if you aren't granted a body, you can sacrifice some of your energy to manipulate your soul into forming one. This would also help explain the whole Goku/Cell/Paikuhan problem for those who don't think he just caught him off guard.

Supposedly the official sources says Cell has the same strength in Hell

[Perfect]

It's pretty obvious he was off guard.

[Saiga]

Or just really weak compared to Paikuhan.

[Perfect]

That'd create a massive plot hole. Goku is far below Cell, and this tournament takes place very soon after the Cell Games. This would mean Goku gained a level of power equal to SSJ2 Gohan's in the matter of barley any time without even being SSJ2. Again, it's obvious Cell was off guard. He wasn't even powered up, do you see any sparks around him? You actually see Cell's look confusion as a meteor-like object passes Goku directly into his path. I don't know how there isn't an indication Cell wasn't powered up or surprised.

[Saiga]

That'd create a massive plot hole. Goku is far below Cell, and this tournament takes place very soon after the Cell Games. This would mean Goku gained a level of power equal to SSJ2 Gohan's in the matter of barley any time without even being SSJ2. Again, it's obvious Cell was off guard. He wasn't even powered up, do you see any sparks around him? You actually see Cell's look confusion as a meteor-like object passes Goku directly into his path. I don't know how there isn't an indication Cell wasn't powered up or surprised.

We're talking about filler power levels, base Goku could be above SS2 Gohan following filler.

[Perfect]

That'd create a massive plot hole. Goku is far below Cell, and this tournament takes place very soon after the Cell Games. This would mean Goku gained a level of power equal to SSJ2 Gohan's in the matter of barley any time without even being SSJ2. Again, it's obvious Cell was off guard. He wasn't even powered up, do you see any sparks around him? You actually see Cell's look confusion as a meteor-like object passes Goku directly into his path. I don't know how there isn't an indication Cell wasn't powered up or surprised.

We're talking about filler power levels, base Goku could be above SS2 Gohan following filler.

There's not only nothing indicating that, but nothing disproving anything I've said.

[Saiga]

That'd create a massive plot hole. Goku is far below Cell, and this tournament takes place very soon after the Cell Games. This would mean Goku gained a level of power equal to SSJ2 Gohan's in the matter of barley any time without even being SSJ2. Again, it's obvious Cell was off guard. He wasn't even powered up, do you see any sparks around him? You actually see Cell's look confusion as a meteor-like object passes Goku directly into his path. I don't know how there isn't an indication Cell wasn't powered up or surprised.

We're talking about filler power levels, base Goku could be above SS2 Gohan following filler.

There's not only nothing indicating that, but nothing disproving anything I've said.

I'm just saying that the scene is open to interpretation either way. It's filler, it's hard to make sense of the power levels. Considering that the Super Kaio-ken would have been at least as strong as SS2, Paikuhan could definitely be above Cell.

[Fox666]

They always fight equally in their regular and Super Saiyans forms in fillers, movies or GT.

And what about Broli punching Videl in the face and she being just fine? And all scenes like that?

[Perfect]

"Super Kaio-ken" doesn't have an official set multiplier, so it could be a minuscule boost; that's entirely speculation. The scene isn't open to interpretation because "it's filler," isn't an excuse. Taking the whole plot hole aside if Pikon were to be stronger, which he isn't, then look at the actual evidence in the fight. Do you even see Pikon and Cell fight? No, you see him being taken by surprise. There's nothing subjective or open to interpretation about how Cell's beaten. This is the same as Majin Vegeta cold-clocking SSJ2 Goku to go and fight Buu. Does this make Vegeta stronger? No, they're very much equal in terms of power in their SSJ2 forms.

There's no plot hole about Goku being at SSJ2 strength, because Pikon wasn't stronger than Cell, simple. Goku charges Cell in his... In between state...? Regardless of how we treat his form, there's no indication he'd even powered up to his maximum from the Cell Games. If he had, Pikon wouldn't have been surprised in their fight. Plus, look at Cell. He was likely at the same level as Goku so he could have a little fun, instead of a one-hit overkill. Note there's no sparks around Cell, or even a power up. Note that Pikon flies out of nowhere from behind Goku, running directly into Cell; take into consideration Cell's surprised face as he sees it a second before he gets kicked.

It's a very similar moment to Goku and Piccolo Daimao's fight. Daimao wasn't expecting Goku to come at him, Cell wasn't expecting anyone but Goku to come at him. Not to mention that Cell wasn't even charging at Pikon, it's not like Cell was being cocky and somehow knew Pikon was going to intercept him and changed his course of trajectory towards him. Just look at the episode, it speaks for itself, there's nothing to interpret other than Cell was taken by surprise.

Cell states Goku's strength is nothing, also indicating the reason as to why there's no power up from him.

Cell charges at Goku (No power up from either side, just SSJ Goku, well "in between SSJ" since the animators changed their minds".

Goku is genuinely surprised by Pikon interfering.


Cell is discombobulated by what the hell is coming towards him.

[Saiga]

Toei are terrible with sparks, and it has been stated that Cell was the same strength he was when he was alive, so I assume that means he wasn't suppressed either. Goku and Cell's surprise can be attributed to Paikuhan's speed being faster than they can follow.

[Perfect]

Toei are terrible with sparks, and it has been stated that Cell was the same strength he was when he was alive, so I assume that means he wasn't suppressed either. Goku and Cell's surprise can be attributed to Paikuhan's speed being faster than they can follow.

It doesn't matter if they're terrible with sparks, there isn't any. Plus there's no indication that they "forgot them", Cell's line suggests there's no need to try against Goku's level of strength. Goku isn't even at a powered up level of SSJ, if we're to even count him at SSJ. So you're saying when you're dead that your maximum amount of chi is your chi that you'll always have? No, of course not. Yes his strength is the same as when he was alive, doesn't mean he powered up to it. Not only are there not any sparks, there's no aura or power up either. Yes, it is fast, hence catching Cell off guard; Pikon clearly had time to charge from behind at Cell and gain momentum to increase his velocity.

[Fox666]

Why are you trying to justify a filler scene? And you think Toei had any idea of which was the Super Saiyan 2 multiplier while coming up with something like "Super Kaio-ken"?

Goku not transforming in Super Saiyan while fighting a guy that defeated Cell is not worst than Cell teaming up with Freeza, who is many times weaker than him and many people he has seen.

[Attitudefan]

Cell is dead, so wouldn't there be a bit of extra endurance like there is with Goku or Gohan?

[Fox666]

Cell is dead, he should not have a body to begin with. If that is possible, Yamcha could teleport to Hell, transform in Super Saiyan and defeat Cell that it wouldn't matter.

[Perfect]

Why are you trying to justify a filler scene?

Goku not transforming in Super Saiyan while fighting a guy that defeated Cell is not worst than Cell teaming up with Freeza, who is many times weaker than him and many people he has seen.

Because I can justify whatever can be justified because if it's not unwarrantable then I can do it because it's justifiable? "It's filler" isn't an excuse. Aside from plot holes in filler, logic can always be applied in certain scenes. This is one of them, and you're in no position to tell me not to, mind you.

Goku not transforming can be attributed to the fact that he oh, I don't know, caught him off guard? There's tons of speculation that can be applied here. Why wouldn't Cell team up with Freeza? He's a pretty strong guy compared to the rest of the losers in Hell, one more grunt is better than no grunts.

Attitudefan yes you're absolutely right, but Cell was cold-clocked unconscious so that endurance wouldn't be displayed even if Toei remembered it.

Edit: Yes, Cell is dead and has a body; that's an actual provable plot hole. No, one plot hole doesn't justify breaking the story anymore. "Woops, we made a plot hole. OH WELL, LET'S MAKE YAMCHA A SUPER SAIYAN AND MAKE HIM KILL CELL IN HELL BECAUSE WE MADE ONE MISTAKE THAT WE TECHNICALLY DON'T EVEN RECOGNIZE FOR THE REST OF THE SERIES, SO LET'S JUST KEEP PURPOSELY MAKING THEM!" please don't be ridiculous.

[Fox666]

If Toei meant Paikuhan to not be stronger than Cell, so why Goku made all that fuss about him defeating Cell? As far the fillers goes, Goku could defeat Freeza, Cell or whoelse without transforming in Super Saiyan at all. But hey, that's exactly what happened in GT!

[Perfect]

If Toei meant Paikuhan to not be stronger than Cell, so why Goku made all that fuss about him defeating Cell?

Because it was a well executed strategy to able to catch Cell of guard and knock him down? Speculation friend, unlike the scene beforehand. Again, making mistakes and then "purposely" making more mistakes because of prior mistakes isn't justifiable. Toei isn't that stupid to make base Goku or Goku at all beat Cell, that's why they didn't. You haven't shown any concrete evidence towards Pikon actually being stronger than Cell other than, "Goku was bragging about him beating Cell" and "It's filler". Neither of which have any logical foundation towards any sound argument.

[Fox666]

Goku can fight Paikuhan because he is the protagonist. He does not transform in Super Saiyan because Toei don't want to draw him always like that. And Paikuhan defeated Cell because of The Worf Effect.

[Attitudefan]

Perfect, makes sense. Sometimes, no matter how tough you are you can get knocked the f*ck out!

Fox66, it's not a plot hole. We have seen others with a body in the manga after death. Cell is a powerful dude, so he kept his body.

[Perfect]

Goku can fight Paikuhan because he is the protagonist. He does not transform in Super Saiyan because Toei don't want to draw him always like that. And Paikuhan defeated Cell because of The Worf Effect.

Goku can fight him because it was drawn on the story board for the filler story, that's all there is to it. That's just a theory, there's no official explanation on the last minute color change, so no. Yes that's a very obvious plot device, but it doesn't justify Goku or Pikon being stronger than Cell, as I've stated. Every element points towards Pikon taking Cell by surprise, thus avoiding the plot hole of Goku being at Gohan's level.

Well Attitudefan, it's stated only the really good guys can keep their bodies in the manga. Even the anime says this in filler... Contradicting themselves half an episode later. But yeah, you can get knocked the fuck out regardless of strength, there's a plethora of examples in the manga. Majin Vegeta and Goku are a great one. There's also an instance in the Goku vs. Cell fight ironically.