Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

Locked
User avatar
Perfect
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1865
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:16 am

Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by Perfect » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:20 am

So many of us know the fabled filler events of Paikuhan and Cell. The point of this thread is to debate on whether or not Cell was off guard or just weaker.

The scene really isn't open to interpretation, it's really cut and dry what happens to Cell, regardless of how you'd place them strength wise. Nothing implies Cell is weaker, other than "OH HE BEAT HIM" or "IT'S FILLER". Neither excuses are valid because of the following:
I. Goku beat Pure Buu in SSJ, does that mean SSJ Goku > Pure Buu? No, not even a little. You have to look at how he beat him.
II. So what if it's filler? We can still apply logic to scenes seeing that not every inch of filler is a plot hole.

Taking the whole plot hole aside if Paikuhan were to be stronger, which he isn't, then look at the actual evidence in the fight. Do you even see Paikuhan and Cell fight? No, you see him being taken by surprise. There's nothing subjective or open to interpretation about how Cell's beaten as I stated. This is the same as Majin Vegeta cold-clocking SSJ2 Goku to go and fight Buu. Does this make Vegeta stronger? No, they're very much equal in terms of power in their SSJ2 forms.

If you believe Paikuhan is stronger than Cell, then you create the plot hole of Goku being stronger than Gohan in a matter of days. Not only that, then you're creating supposed animation errors of Cell's power up and sparks being forgotten and even more plot holes revolving around that (There's enough plot holes in the episode that're actually plot holes). It's much simpler to take the scene as it is instead of making up baseless theories, which is, "Cell was caught off guard and beaten". Freeza wasn't taken by surprise really, and even if you wanna say he was, there's no indication he'd be anywhere near Paikuhan's level.

There's no plot hole about Goku being at SSJ2 strength, because Paikuhan wasn't stronger than Cell, simple. Goku charges Cell in his... In between state...? Regardless of how we treat his form, there's no indication he'd even powered up to his maximum from the Cell Games. If he had, Paikuhan wouldn't have been surprised in their fight. Plus, look at Cell. He was likely at the same level as Goku so he could have a little fun, instead of a one-hit overkill. Note there's no sparks around Cell, or even a power up. Note that Paikuhan flies out of nowhere from behind Goku, running directly into Cell; take into consideration Cell's surprised face as he sees it a second before he gets kicked.

It's a very similar moment to Goku and Piccolo Daimao's fight. Daimao wasn't expecting Goku to come at him, Cell wasn't expecting anyone but Goku to come at him. Not to mention that Cell wasn't even charging at Paikuhan, it's not like Cell was being cocky and somehow knew Paikuhan was going to intercept him and changed his course of trajectory towards him. Just look at the episode, it speaks for itself, there's nothing to interpret other than Cell was taken by surprise.

Cell states Goku's strength is nothing, also indicating the reason as to why there's no power up from him.
Image
Cell charges at Goku (No power up from either side, just SSJ Goku, well "in between SSJ" since the animators changed their minds".
Image
Goku is genuinely surprised by Paikuhan interfering.
Image
Image
Cell is discombobulated by what the hell is coming towards him.
Image

Look at the animation very closely. Paikuhan appears from nowhere seemingly, blazing past Goku. Cell catches a glance of this and his eyes widen, within a second later, Cell runs into him full force and becomes unconscious/immobilized from the hits, having no time to react in the mean time. All this said is, Paikuhan's speed allowed him to take out a suppressed Perfect Cell. It's later revealed that Paikuhan is around SSJ Goku's Cell Games post-powered up state. Meaning that Cell would only have been able to beat him if he was powered up to his full power before he got his zenkai; which he wasn't. We don't even have to factor in Super Perfect Cell, because that would be overkill and both Goku and Paikuhan would be defeated easily. Note the fact there's no indication of Cell powering up, being powered up, powering up prior off screen, no sparks or any actual reason to be anywhere more than Goku's level.

Also please take into consideration that Goku never once comments on his strength during the events, only his speed. So let's reconstruct the data above!

Paikuhan who can take a Perfect Cell that'd be suppressed around SSJ Goku's level charges up his attack off screen. Cell in the mean time has no sparks, no aura and no reason to be powered up and takes off after a Goku that isn't even SSJ (His hair was colored black at the last second remember). Instantaneously a flaming silhouette passes by Goku at an immense speed (Goku himself is baffled by Paikuhan interfering and later attributes it to being about his speed), Cell sees the blazing figure a little way from Goku and yells in confusion. He's struck before he has any time react or even slow down, immobilizing him.

The argument of it not being said Cell wasn't at full power and that it's not out right said Cell was taken by surprise is entirely baseless. It's never stated the reason Cell being taken out wasn't because of him being caught off guard either, the only commentary on it is his speed; evidently that allowed him to clock Cell out in the first place. It's also never said that Cell was powered up either, nor is there given at all, any indication. To say Toei cared enough to put an aura around Goku, who mind you didn't power up either, but not Cell because they didn't care, is entirely speculation and strays away from any contextual evidence.
An example of straying of from any evidence would be again, saying that Paikuhan is stronger because he beat Cell. Nothing suggests he's stronger than full power Cell or post-zenkai Cell, in fact it's viably suggested that Cell is stronger because of the various reasons already stated in this post.

I'd like to reiterate the fact that because it's filler, is absolutely no reason to say it's automatically a plot hole. Yes, there's a lot in that episode, granted there's also a lot of story elements that aren't. Saying "It's filler you can't make sense of it" or "It's filler just look at all these other examples of plot holes" has no foundation.
Fox666 wrote:It seems you have pissed a lot of people on this forum, and I am quite sure they would like to call you stupid and say that's the designated adjectives for you. But they don't do that because of there are rules in this community.

Mystic Gohan
Regular
Posts: 586
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:58 am

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by Mystic Gohan » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:27 am

I don't see whythey would even bother sending goku and pikkon if they werent atleast stronger than spc, because you never fight a villain in a suprressed form imo unless you are future trunks ofc lol. So imo either cell was weaker due to being in hell restrictions or pikkon and goku made huge gains in the afterlife.

User avatar
Perfect
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1865
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:16 am

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by Perfect » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:28 am

...What restrictions? It's officially stated Cell retained all the strength he did from the Cell Games. Plus I'm thinking you didn't read the entirety of my post seeing that I said the tournament began very shortly after the Cell Games (Less than a month actually, a few days most likely). And then there's the lack of evidence that Cell was even at his level from the Cell Games to begin with, given the only argument is, "Toei forgot".
Fox666 wrote:It seems you have pissed a lot of people on this forum, and I am quite sure they would like to call you stupid and say that's the designated adjectives for you. But they don't do that because of there are rules in this community.

User avatar
DBZ Mick
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1130
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 1:38 am
Location: Australia

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by DBZ Mick » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:11 am

Even before I knew what filler actually was, I always thought Cell was caught off guard by Paikuhan. I never understood why people took this as a sign of Paikuhan being stronger...Infact I always thought had Paikuhan not suddenly used that tornado attack- Hyper Tornado?- that Cell would have come back and attacked him easily. Again, that attack caught him off guard- he looks like he's shocked again.

It happens all the time in the series. Does that mean Kid Trunks is stronger than the Fat Majin Boo because he kicked him away?

That kind of logic.

I agree with you, Perfect.
It is in his character to be rude and a bit crass. He's a hick, with no formal education. That is Son Goku. That is who he is.

Superman in an orange Gi was the bastard son of FUNimation. Its not The real character, it is as false as Chatku.

-DemonRin

User avatar
Fox666
I Live Here
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:18 am

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by Fox666 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:12 am

Perfect wrote:Just look at the episode, it speaks for itself, there's nothing to interpret other than Cell was taken by surprise.
That's subjective. Do you have any source for that?

User avatar
DBZ Mick
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1130
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 1:38 am
Location: Australia

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by DBZ Mick » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:16 am

You clearly see Cell give a look of shock or in all honestly a WTF is that?! Look.
It is in his character to be rude and a bit crass. He's a hick, with no formal education. That is Son Goku. That is who he is.

Superman in an orange Gi was the bastard son of FUNimation. Its not The real character, it is as false as Chatku.

-DemonRin

User avatar
Perfect
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1865
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:16 am

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by Perfect » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:18 am

Pretty much what Mick said, he demonstrates a clear expression of shock. It's cut and dry in the context of how Cell's beaten.
Fox666 wrote:It seems you have pissed a lot of people on this forum, and I am quite sure they would like to call you stupid and say that's the designated adjectives for you. But they don't do that because of there are rules in this community.

User avatar
Fox666
I Live Here
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:18 am

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by Fox666 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:21 am

What do you call being "taken by surprise"?

Image

User avatar
DBZ Mick
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1130
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 1:38 am
Location: Australia

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by DBZ Mick » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:23 am

I'd say the same thing applies to that.

Vegeta was shocked that ReaCoom can move so fast.
It is in his character to be rude and a bit crass. He's a hick, with no formal education. That is Son Goku. That is who he is.

Superman in an orange Gi was the bastard son of FUNimation. Its not The real character, it is as false as Chatku.

-DemonRin

bizness86
Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:39 pm

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by bizness86 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:29 am

I had posted a similar topic on another forum.

Since Pikkon was non-canon, I sourced Burning Shoot from the games, which was, apparently, a mirror to North Kaio's Kaio-ken. Pikkon x2 would have brought his power to a reasonable level, especially if Burning Shoot also attains Kaio-ken's forced power-up factor; Pikkon would be near-max x2 when assaulting Cell.

User avatar
Perfect
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1865
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:16 am

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by Perfect » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:33 am

Very interesting theory you got there. It really only counts though if the game goes hand in hand with the anime though, since a lot of times it doesn't. Though I'd gradually accept this seeing that it doesn't contradict anything in the episode.
Fox666 wrote:It seems you have pissed a lot of people on this forum, and I am quite sure they would like to call you stupid and say that's the designated adjectives for you. But they don't do that because of there are rules in this community.

User avatar
Fox666
I Live Here
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:18 am

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by Fox666 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:49 am

I don't see why Paikuhan can't just be stronger than Cell. I don't remember it ever being said that Paikuhan technique multiply his battle power.

Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image
Last edited by Fox666 on Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Perfect
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1865
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:16 am

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by Perfect » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:53 am

Because Cell was readily taken by surprise and rendered immobile for the remainder of the episode. Nothing suggests him to be anywhere near as powerful as Cell besides, "Oh he beat Cell!"
Fox666 wrote:It seems you have pissed a lot of people on this forum, and I am quite sure they would like to call you stupid and say that's the designated adjectives for you. But they don't do that because of there are rules in this community.

User avatar
Fox666
I Live Here
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:18 am

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by Fox666 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:06 am

Perfect wrote:Because Cell was readily taken by surprise
Source? And even if that was true, so what? He beat Cell in three hits.
Perfect wrote:rendered immobile
Source? He is moving his arms to me.
Perfect wrote:besides, "Oh he beat Cell!"
"Trunks sliced Freeza in half"

User avatar
Perfect
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1865
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:16 am

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by Perfect » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:09 am

I. Source: Look at the screenshot kiddo.

II. Source: He had plenty of time to get out of the lake, but he didn't; thus he was rendered immobile.

III. That doesn't make Trunks stronger for the fact that he won; it makes it so that he was stronger so he won.
Fox666 wrote:It seems you have pissed a lot of people on this forum, and I am quite sure they would like to call you stupid and say that's the designated adjectives for you. But they don't do that because of there are rules in this community.

User avatar
Fox666
I Live Here
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:18 am

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by Fox666 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:31 am

Perfect wrote:I. Source: Look at the screenshot kiddo.
That's subjetive. Different people look at different means.

You think it's a surprise expression, I think it's a humorous expression.
Perfect wrote:II. Source: He had plenty of time to get out of the lake, but he didn't; thus he was rendered immobile.
Of course, logically since Cell can move faster than the sound. However time never makes sense in animation. Characters have whole dialogues before energy attacks reach the other side. In this case, Cell didn't move so Paikuhan could charge his attack. It doesn't make sense, but that's an anime for you.
Perfect wrote:III. That doesn't make Trunks stronger for the fact that he won; it makes it so that he was stronger so he won.
And why was everybody saying that line...?

User avatar
Perfect
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1865
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:16 am

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by Perfect » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:36 am

I. His surprised face is subjective... No, no it isn't. Cell's happy for no reason? That doesn't even make sense, you're throwing all logic out the window again. That's like saying a clown that's crying because the child he loved dearly died, but he's really crying tears of joy and laughing instead of sobbing. Get real.

II. You're just trying to rationalize something that isn't true, it's pretty damn clear he wasn't moving.

III. Who's everyone? Why should I care? Trunks was stronger, or at least smarter in his fight with Freeza, which allowed him to win. There's nothing more to say on that. Winning doesn't make you stronger.
Fox666 wrote:It seems you have pissed a lot of people on this forum, and I am quite sure they would like to call you stupid and say that's the designated adjectives for you. But they don't do that because of there are rules in this community.

User avatar
DBZ Mick
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1130
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 1:38 am
Location: Australia

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by DBZ Mick » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:41 am

How is THAT face a humorous expression? It's clearly a 'what the F$%k is that?!' kind of look.
It is in his character to be rude and a bit crass. He's a hick, with no formal education. That is Son Goku. That is who he is.

Superman in an orange Gi was the bastard son of FUNimation. Its not The real character, it is as false as Chatku.

-DemonRin

User avatar
Fox666
I Live Here
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:18 am

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by Fox666 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:44 am

Perfect wrote:I. His surprised face is subjective... No, no it isn't. Cell's happy for no reason? That doesn't even make sense, you're throwing all logic out the window again. That's like saying a clown that's crying because the child he loved dearly died, but he's really crying tears of joy and laughing instead of sobbing. Get real.
This is not real, it's fiction. Perhaps I may even say it's based on a children book.

Cell body is pierced by a spike of steel because it's funny, not because it makes sense.
Perfect wrote:II. You're just trying to rationalize something that isn't true, it's pretty damn clear he wasn't moving.
You assume it should be rational?

What about the Kienzan that Kuririn fired at Nappa? How long it took for it to reach if Vegeta could give Nappa some advices? That should at least take some seconds, which is nothing for guys who can literally fight at a speed that is invisible for an human eye.

Image
Perfect wrote:III. Who's everyone? Why should I care? Trunks was stronger, or at least smarter in his fight with Freeza, which allowed him to win. There's nothing more to say on that. Winning doesn't make you stronger.
Maybe not, but Kami and the others would be really stupid to keep saying "the man who defeated Freeza in an instant" if he did so because of lucky.

User avatar
Perfect
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1865
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:16 am

Re: Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

Post by Perfect » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:48 am

I. That has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted other than you think it's funny, when it turn that also has nothing to do with the feeling Cell's face expresses in the screen shot.

II. Things are slowed down for artistic purposes, there's also no indication of that here.

III. Again, Trunks was stronger than Freeza. He wasn't stronger because he won, he won because he was stronger.
Fox666 wrote:It seems you have pissed a lot of people on this forum, and I am quite sure they would like to call you stupid and say that's the designated adjectives for you. But they don't do that because of there are rules in this community.

Locked