Muten-Roshi weaker than Son Gohan?

[Fox666]

And there is still the fact that Goku needed the Super Kaioken to beat Paikuhan, and it is logical to assume this would be at least a x2 boost on his Super Saiyan form, but it could be anywhere up to a x20 boost.

Goku used a Kaio-ken times 100 against Slug, so the Super Kaio-ken being 2 times Super Saiyan would be pointless. It being 20 times (1000 times) is more acceptable.

I. Yes he is fast, there's no indication he's above Cell in strength.

Wasn't he contantly called the "guy who defeated Cell and Freeza" in the following episodes? Why would they call him that if he won because of... lucky?

II. The Artificial Humans are more or less toying with them at first, then when they get serious, which is when they go SSJ, they're a little bit less stronger.

I think Toei is toying with us with their 1.1 multiplier for Super Saiyans.

III. Yes actually it does, you just have an annoying habit of ignoring what I say because you'd rather it to be brought up constantly.

No, it's because no matter how many times you say it won't become true. There has never been any mention of "surprise attack" what-so-ever on the episode (which in fact has never been mentioned anywhere).

There's clear evidence Cell wasn't at his strength from the end of the Cell Games. There were no sparks, no aura around him, no indication of a power up at all from Cell in the episode and lastly, no reason for him to power up to that level.

Cell should not be able to fight at full power if he did not power-up in an aura? He was holding back his strength and his Ki from Goku, but his point was to hide his power. Goku could still dodge the attacks of Ginyu Tokusentai even if his Ki was at 5,000.

I think I will take back my words. I doubt Toei would think too deep about what happends when you hide your Ki. So it doesn't make any difference.

It's not a fan explanation, it's just you believing what you want to believe.

You talk like I am questioning something undoubtedly. However it's you who don't have any official source to support your claim, only your word. I on the other hand do have a scan that suggests otherwise.

It's clearly indicated that Cell was taken aback from Pikon's sudden interference. He doesn't even have a chance to stop, nor is it implied he got cocky and decided to ram Pikon. There was no opportunity to brace himself.

He may just not be strong enough. It's a shorter explanation.

IV. The source you posted merely says he retains his strength, not once does it specify Cell's level of strength or imply he's powered up. Whereas I've used contextual evidence to prove you wrong.

What would be the point of saying he is of the same strenght (apparently specifically talking about Cell and how strong Paikuhan is) if he actually was using only a fraction of his power?

Your "contextual evidence" is purely subjetive. I myself prefer not looking for "power statements" beetween animation frames.

Oh that's a great excuse, "Oh Toei just didn't care about the details". There's not a single indication of that.

They do it all the time!!

Oh well, it makes no difference. It not like Toei cares about the differences beetween a Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 or even Super Saiyan 3.

It's likely in Hell that one can't use Instantaneous Movement

Source?

just as they can't simply fly upwards.

Isn't that just very hard, which you can avoid by finding an alternative path? And didn't Goku move through the whole afterlife, including Hell in movie 12?

If you speculate they forgot Cell's power from the post-zenkai

I am not speculating, I am saying that is just a minor detail for Toei. Of course fans obsessed with battle powers formulas won't accept something like that. But the anime has always been like that.

VI. There's no indication of Freeza holding back any amount of power, he's just a weakling compared to anyone that's near SSJ Goku.

I can't say Freeza is using a fraction of his power but you can say Cell does?

My evidence of Freeza being surprised by Goku defeating the Ginyu Tokusentai is just as bad as your about Cell can't loose to Paikuhan just because Goku can fight evenly with Paikuhan.

VII. Goku wasn't SSJ, meant to be at first, but not in the finished product. Base Goku wouldn't be anywhere near Freeza anyway, so he'd need to transform regardless.

He doesn't need to be a Super Saiyan. He can push them away with a Kiai, like he did back them. But apparenly he needs to power-up with some sort of yellow Kaio-ken to fight them.

Aside from you know, the fact that Goku shouldn't be anywhere near Cell's level.

He shouldn't be anywhere close to Gohan-absorbed Majin Boo, but that didn't prevent Toei of making Goku fight him.

Dammit, why am I writing these fucking walls of text?

[Perfect]

I. Lucky? Yes very much so, Pikon getting another chance like that would be out of the quesiton.

II. What 1.1 multiplier?

III. I can say the exact same thing for you, the only difference here is I'm right. Everything I've said is fact, whereas yours is just speculation. It doesn't have to be mentioned, it's right there in the episode, like a punch to the face.

IV. If you take back what you said afterwords, why say it in the first place? There's no indication Cell's "hiding" anything, as much as he's at a stationary power.

V. Because I don't rely on speculation from scans so much as I do contextual story evidence from the actual episode.

VI. What? He's not strong enough, so that makes it so he can't brace himself and stop? How is that even close to being plausible.

VII. Because it's stating Cell didn't get weaker just because he died. There's no evidence to say Cell's at the level he was when he fought Gohan at the end.

VIII. That's pretty subjective, and usually based on speculation, you know, like now.

IX. I can do exactly what you're doing to, "Oh Toei's shown to make mistakes, must mean they make the same mistake every single time and worse because they recognize these mistakes and think it's funny to do so".

X. There isn't one, but it seems that's likely, again that's in retort to what I said about "I can speculate too". Referring to you're claim that it's fact that Toei forgot the details completely.

XI. In the movie 12 the entire realm was warped to hell so clearly the standard rules didn't apply.

XII. You are speculating because it isn't a fact, it's an assumption based on theory.

XIII. Actually, it's very well possible Freeza could be holding back power. I forgot about the 100% bullshit, so actually it's implied he isn't using all his power anyway. But it doesn't matter because he's a weakling. No, because one's a plot hole and one isn't.

XIV. Kaio-ken? Uhm you're confusing an in between state with the Kaio-ken... Anyway, he wouldn't have been able to do such with Cell or Freeza in his base form.

XV. Goku didn't even injure Buu in the filler fight, your example is irrelevant. He did about as much damage as Mr. Satan's gun. Plus Buu makes it pretty clear he could finish him off at any go.

Edit: I've come to realize this is really going off topic... So I made a topic: http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... =8&t=19151

[Fox666]

I can say the exact same thing for you, the only difference here is I'm right. Everything I've said is fact, whereas yours is just speculation. It doesn't have to be mentioned, it's right there in the episode, like a punch to the face.

Sorry, but I don't have anything to say anymore. All you do is subjective analysis or animation frames like they are facts.

[Perfect]

I can say the exact same thing for you, the only difference here is I'm right. Everything I've said is fact, whereas yours is just speculation. It doesn't have to be mentioned, it's right there in the episode, like a punch to the face.

Sorry, but I don't have anything to say anymore. All you do is subjective analysis or animation frames. If you think you have proven anything, good for you.

I don't think, I know I have since everything I stated that was subjective, well I said it was subjective. If you have anything more to say, feel free to say so in the new thread.

[Fox666]

If you admit you are being subjetive, then why you say they are facts? Why you call what I say is speculation? And why you call yourself right? By definition, neither of these can be true if you are being subjetive.

[Perfect]

You should really brush up on learning to read the post above yours, seriously. I said if I said anything that was subjective, then I stated it was subjective. Regardless of that, if I didn't then, it was factual based on contextual evidence.

[Fox666]

Maybe you should learn to make a sentence clear? Excuse me if I am not a native English speaker.

What does a fact mean? It is something that goes beyond subjetive, beyond interpretation.

1. Cell was never stated to be taken by surprise. Analyzing animations frames of facial expression does not make a fact.

2. The effectiness of being taken by surprise has never been mentioned in the series. Thus it is nothing but a fan theory to explain why Toriyama is not as strict with "battle power formulas" as fan does (I.e. "character A is 1/2 of B, thus he cannot injury B"). And neither of that is for sure a fact.

3. Cell has never been stated to be holding back. That is not a fact either.

4. "A is stronger than B, but A lost to C, and B is even to C, thus A was holding back" is not a valid argument, and surely is not a fact.

5. An scan that shows Paikuhan fighting Cell states he is of the same strength he was when alive. This is the closest thing we get to a fact here.

Maybe I should mention that the first requirement for something be called a fact is that they "truly exist", which does not apply to fictional characters?

[Perfect]

Oh you're talking to me about making sentences clear? Half of the time I have read what you say twice because of the grammar. My sentences are by far better than yours, so don't even try to go there.

1. Yes, Cell was taken by surprise, look at the expression of shock on his face. Uhm yes, being analytic on those type of things, given they're pertaining to contextual evidence does indeed create facts.

2. It doesn't have to be mentioned when it's literally right there. Does it have to be mentioned every time that Vegeta helped Gohan beat Cell whenever it's brought up that Gohan beat Cell? No; there's not a single fan theory here but your own twisted mechanics.

3. There's no contextual evidence that suggests he wasn't, therefore making it factual.

4. Yes it is an argument, quite so. "Cell is stronger than Goku, but Cell lost to Pikkon, and Goku is even to Pikkon, thus Cell was holding back". It makes perfect sense seeing that in a matter of a few days it'd be impossible for Goku to catch up to Cell, you're just throwing all logic out the window.

5. A scan showing that Cell retained his strength, being incredibly vague and open to interpretation shows nothing more than speculation. The only thing it says for sure is that Cell has the strength from the time he was on Earth.

[Fox666]

Oh you're talking to me about making sentences clear? Half of the time I have read what you say twice because of the grammar. My sentences are by far better than yours, so don't even try to go there.

I said I am not a native English speaker, Mr. Learn-To-Read-The-Post-Above.

2. It doesn't have to be mentioned when it's literally right there. Does it have to be mentioned every time that Vegeta helped Gohan beat Cell whenever it's brought up that Gohan beat Cell? No; there's not a single fan theory here but your own twisted mechanics.

Do you have any official source explaining the "surprise attack" mechanics?

Vegeta fired a blast on Cell's face, so what? It doesn't suit some "battle power formulas" of yours?

3. There's no contextual evidence that suggests he wasn't, therefore making it factual.

You know that's the exact opposite definition of a "fact", right?

4. Yes it is an argument, quite so. "Cell is stronger than Goku, but Cell lost to Paikuhan, and Goku is even to Paikuhan, thus Cell was holding back". It makes perfect sense seeing that in a matter of a few days it'd be impossible for Goku to catch up to Cell, you're just throwing all logic out the window.

Count Dooku defeated Obi-wan, Anakin defeated Count Dooku, which proves Anakin defeated Obi-wan near the end of The Sith Revenge.

I am surprised to realize all synopsis online are wrong about the plot of the movie.

5. A scan showing that Cell retained his strength, being incredibly vague and open to interpretation shows nothing more than speculation. The only thing it says for sure is that Cell has the strength from the time he was on Earth.

Funny that's the only thing you think is "incredibly vague and open to interpretation and nothing more than speculation" while comical facial expression are more facts than a scan of a publication.

[Perfect]

Oh I'm quite aware, I didn't even have to read where you said that to understand you weren't. However, that doesn't give you any sorta position to criticize my sentences; especially seeing that you're the one that has trouble comprehending things here (reiterating my initial point here).

I. You're a funny guy you know that? Posting entirely irrelevant things constantly, "battle formulas" have nothing to do with this whatsoever.

You're whole point here is that it isn't mentioned that Cell was caught by surprise, which is clearly shown in the dialect, animation and artwork. The same goes for Vegeta helping Gohan, it's not said every time Gohan beating Cell is brought up, if at all.

II. No you misunderstand. There's no contextual evidence supporting your claim, whereas there is mine, making mine factual (While yours not so much). A fact is a reality, a truth if you will.

III. Star Wars is completely different from Dragon Ball. Especially given that you haven't disproved the fact that Cell is indeed stronger than Pikkon and lost to him. Is that so hard to understand? What if SSJ3 Goku got spit on by Dabra? Must be a plot hole right? A weaker character could never beat a stronger character after all!

IV. Because it is vague, the expression and the rest of the contextual evidence points towards Cell being surprised.

[Saiga]

Oh you're talking to me about making sentences clear? Half of the time I have read what you say twice because of the grammar. My sentences are by far better than yours, so don't even try to go there.

1. Yes, Cell was taken by surprise, look at the expression of shock on his face. Uhm yes, being analytic on those type of things, given they're pertaining to contextual evidence does indeed create facts.

2. It doesn't have to be mentioned when it's literally right there. Does it have to be mentioned every time that Vegeta helped Gohan beat Cell whenever it's brought up that Gohan beat Cell? No; there's not a single fan theory here but your own twisted mechanics.

3. There's no contextual evidence that suggests he wasn't, therefore making it factual.

4. Yes it is an argument, quite so. "Cell is stronger than Goku, but Cell lost to Paikuhan, and Goku is even to Paikuhan, thus Cell was holding back". It makes perfect sense seeing that in a matter of a few days it'd be impossible for Goku to catch up to Cell, you're just throwing all logic out the window.

5. A scan showing that Cell retained his strength, being incredibly vague and open to interpretation shows nothing more than speculation. The only thing it says for sure is that Cell has the strength from the time he was on Earth.

Your interpretation of the events is NOT fact. Number 3 is especially baffling, that does not make a fact.

As for number 4, people seem to think Piccolo was above Nail with 6 days on Kaio's planet, or even above the Ginyu Force (I've even heard speculation that he was at Freeza's level prior to the Nail merger). So saying Goku got stronger isn't crazy in comparison.

[Perfect]

It isn't an interpretation, it's pretty damn cut and dry. The fact you deny Cell being surprised is baffling, if anything. Number 3 states he didn't have any contextual evidence to support his claim that couldn't be disputed logically, whereas my claims have been backed up each and every time.

Goku jumped more than twice his level in a few days... Yeah, no. In the Cell Games the battle powers are easily in the hundred millions and possibly billions. There's absolutely no inclination that Goku would have gained that much power trying to build a house on Serpentine Road and gathering supplies, with a few push ups and whatnot along the way over the course of a few days. Hell, nothing implies that either. All that speculation you provided never has any proof towards it, just like this claim.

[Fox666]

Oh I'm quite aware, I didn't even have to read where you said that to understand you weren't. However, that doesn't give you any sorta position to criticize my sentences; especially seeing that you're the one that has trouble comprehending things here (reiterating my initial point here).

If you admit you are aware I can't speak properly, doesn't that put me in position to criticize that your sentences are not clear enough? Or are you saying that because I can't write properly, I can't ask you to? But then you was the one who complained about reading sentences properly to begin with...

I. You're a funny guy you know that? Posting entirely irrelevant things constantly, "battle formulas" have nothing to do with this whatsoever.

Yes, it does. You are saying that "Vegeta is too weak to hit Cell". Which is nothing more than these battle power formulas fans create to decide the outcome of a battle.

You're whole point here is that it isn't mentioned that Cell was caught by surprise, which is clearly shown in the dialect, animation and artwork. The same goes for Vegeta helping Gohan, it's not said every time Gohan beating Cell is brought up, if at all.

That reminds me that scene was complely destroyed in the anime, which Vegeta's attack is not a surprise at all. Which points that the Toei writters are not well aware of the supposed "surprise attack" rule, and certainly did not created the plot or story-board for Paikuhan fight with that in mind.

In fact it's very unlikely Toei was aware at the time that the Super Saiyan 2 multiply the battle power by 2 times, meaning that anything is possible regarding Cell strength in the Paikuhan filler.

II. No you misunderstand. There's no contextual evidence supporting your claim, whereas there is mine, making mine factual (While yours not so much). A fact is a reality, a truth if you will.

Again, that's against the definition of what a fact is. By "contextual" you mean it must be interpretated in a certain way, which completely destroy the possibility of something being called a "fact".

III. Star Wars is completely different from Dragon Ball.

The anime is not written by the same person as the manga, and there is actually multiple writters. And apparently they don't care much about the "A > B, and B > C, so A > C" typical rule.

Especially given that you haven't disproved the fact that Cell is indeed stronger than Paikuhan and lost to him.

There isn't a way to prove, since it's a mostly an irrelevant filler scene. What you expect I do, analyze facial expressions?

Is that so hard to understand? What if SSJ3 Goku got spit on by Dabra? Must be a plot hole right? A weaker character could never beat a stronger character after all!

Of course it does. But "Goku can fight with Paikuhan" is not a reasonable argument to assume Cell was holding back his power, Paikuhan can multiply his strength like the Kaio-ken, or some "surprise attack cheat code" thingie.

IV. Because it is vague, the expression and the rest of the contextual evidence points towards Cell being surprised.

It is not vague. It just says Cell has the same strength as before. It's only vague if you want it to be that way.

[Perfect]

No it really doesn't, since I'm the one that has more knowledge when it comes to English. Ignorantly criticizing get'cha nowhere after all. I complained you couldn't read the post above properly, hence referring to comprehension skills. You were the one that went on about criticizing my sentences, ignorantly of course.

I. I never once said Vegeta is too weak to hit Cell, where the hell are you getting that from? I'm specifically referring to the mentioning of Vegeta aiding in defeating Cell.

II. That's irrelevant since I was speaking on behalf of Vegeta's attack being a surprise, the example just happened to utilize that. I was going by the aforementioned above.

III. A fact is a truth. It's true that contextual evidence points towards Cell being surprised, it cannot be interpreted any other way a correct way, as that's the way it's meant to be.

IV. That doesn't change the fact they're adapting a story where Cell is stronger than Pikkon. There's no indication they didn't follow that rule. Just because they haven't before doesn't mean they always won't. You don't see them making Yamcha severely injuring Cell in filler do you? No of course not, so there's filler examples of them keeping everything perfectly acceptable.

V. By analyzing the dialogue, animation and artwork you can easily find out what's fact and what isn't in most cases, this happens to be one of them.

VI. Considering Cell wasn't powered up because there's no indication given during or beforehand, there's no aura or sparks and not to mention no need, there's more than enough evidence towards Cell being suppressed besides that. It all adds up in my favor, I must say.

VII. It is vague because it fits the definition, it's very broad; not specific enough when pertaining to this context.

[Saiga]

VI. Considering Cell wasn't powered up because there's no indication given during or beforehand, there's no aura or sparks and not to mention no need, there's more than enough evidence towards Cell being suppressed besides that. It all adds up in my favor, I must say.

To you, and your interpretation, it adds up in your favor. You're almost completely ignoring the validity of other interpretations.

[Perfect]

Because I'm not interpreting anything, at least not how the word would work in this context. I'm not explaining anything in a particular way, I'm merely stating it as shows. It's basically typing out the factual reasons as to why Cell's not at his full power. Any "interpretation" is wrong seeing there isn't another way to look at this that'd be valid.

[Fox666]

No it really doesn't, since I'm the one that has more knowledge when it comes to English. Ignorantly criticizing get'cha nowhere after all. I complained you couldn't read the post above properly, hence referring to comprehension skills. You were the one that went on about criticizing my sentences, ignorantly of course.

I said it's not easy for me to read your sentences since I don't speak English. Apparently you have taken that as a offense. Grow up.

A fact is a truth. It's true that contextual evidence points towards Cell being surprised, it cannot be interpreted any other way a correct way, as that's the way it's meant to be.

It is just a cartoon.

[Saiga]

Because I'm not interpreting anything, at least not how the word would work in this context. I'm not explaining anything in a particular way, I'm merely stating it as shows. It's basically typing out the factual reasons as to why Cell's not at his full power. Any "interpretation" is wrong seeing there isn't another way to look at this that'd be valid.

It is not fact that Cell is not at full power. That is your interpretation.

I really don't think there is any point continuing this despite, especially not in this thread.

[Perfect]

It is a fact seeing that there's established elements that point towards his full power, none of those are present. It's like if I make a comic book establish that a villain can reach full power by sayin' "ADO!", and then an animation company abducts my comic book and leaves me a large sum of money. The company makes a story in which the villain is defeated by a means of being surprised. Not once did he say "ADO!" in the story at all.

[Fox666]

I really don't think there is any point continuing this despite, especially not in this thread.

You won the argument with me, Saiga. I surrender.