The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Rocketman]

Your "facts" are from GT. That's like getting facts from Fox News.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I justify Son Goku being above Vegetto with a mountainload of interpretation-based opinions, while you just say "Vegetto > Goku because he's Vegetto."

I don't see how that makes me the fanboy here.

Fixed. Now your counter holds up.

Phew, the thing is that Broli is strong as a villain of his own movie. If he was the villain of movie 13, he would be stronger than Gotenks, if he was the villain of movie 4, he probably would barely be able to handle a regular Super Saiyan. For that reason I think it's flawed to measure the strength of a movie character.

Well, yeah, technically, you're kinda right. But it's not really "flawed" to try and measure up a villain's strength in a specific movie to characters in the main series, if it's just for fun. We know that villains have to be as strong as they are to be a threat to the main characters, before they're conveniently taken out by a Toei Punch, or a Dragon Fist, etc. Although someone could make the argument that the same could go for the villains in the main series, despite the fact that it's more vast and less restrained than the 40-minute (or so) movies and the main series villains' defeats are generally less ridiculous than the movie villains'.

[Kid Buu]

The difference is that Broly is not strong, while Vegetto is. I mean, honestly. CoH up there is claiming that Gohan could beat Vegetto, when Vegetto's entire existance is beating the absolute shit out of Gohan with no effort.

You, sir, are the fanboy for claiming that Goku alone is better than Goku combined with Vegeta.

Depends on what you mean by "strong". He's strong in that, in DBZ Movie #8, he ploughed through SSj Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo effortlessly, and in DBZ Movie #10, he wrecked SSj2 Gohan. But he's not strong in that he's not as strong as SSj3 Gotenks or someone of a similarly ridiculous level, which is what many Broli fanboys profess. I assume you're referring to the latter.

At the end of movie 11, King Kai tells Goku to go handle Broly in the afterlife. In movie 12, Goku says Jamenba is the first villain since Majin Buu to force him into SSJ3. Therefore Majin Buu is much stronger than Broly, and SSJ3 Gotenks can hold his own against Buu. Therefore SSJ3 Gotenks can beat Broly.

[Kaboom]

Okay, here's the truth: GT evidence is honestly not any better than no evidence at all.

The entire series is one big outlandish and shameless clusterfuck of "LET'S HAVE GOKU BE THE BESTEST GUY EVER," and incredibly obviously so. If you're going to involve GT in any sort of power-related discussion, then an understanding of this is necessary. That said, also don't get your underoos in a bunch when people take the headache-free way out and decide not to take GT's "logic" seriously. Because "Vegetto > Everyone" is honestly just as solid and useful a statement as anything GT puts forth. There's a reason why I used to give separate "Normal Logic" and "GT Logic" answers to these things.

Now everyone chill the frak out.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The difference is that Broly is not strong, while Vegetto is. I mean, honestly. CoH up there is claiming that Gohan could beat Vegetto, when Vegetto's entire existance is beating the absolute shit out of Gohan with no effort.

You, sir, are the fanboy for claiming that Goku alone is better than Goku combined with Vegeta.

Depends on what you mean by "strong". He's strong in that, in DBZ Movie #8, he ploughed through SSj Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo effortlessly, and in DBZ Movie #10, he wrecked SSj2 Gohan. But he's not strong in that he's not as strong as SSj3 Gotenks or someone of a similarly ridiculous level, which is what many Broli fanboys profess. I assume you're referring to the latter.

At the end of movie 11, King Kai tells Goku to go handle Broly in the afterlife. In movie 12, Goku says Jamenba is the first villain since Majin Buu to force him into SSJ3. Therefore Majin Buu is much stronger than Broly, and SSJ3 Gotenks can hold his own against Buu. Therefore SSJ3 Gotenks can beat Broly.

Yes, I know that. You can tell that to the Broli fanboys, but they won't listen. Either way, it's not as if it really matters and they can think that Broli is stronger than SSj3 Gotenks all they like, as long as they don't bleed out into credible places like this and try to force others into believing their battle power-obsessed speculative rubbish.

Okay, here's the truth: GT evidence is honestly not any better than no evidence at all.

The entire series is one big outlandish and shameless clusterfuck of "LET'S HAVE GOKU BE THE BESTEST GUY EVER." If you're going to involve GT in any sort of power-related discussion, then an understanding of this is necessary. That said, don't get your underoos in a bunch when people take the headache-free way out and decide not to take GT's "logic" seriously. Because "Vegetto > Everyone" is honestly just as solid and useful a statement as anything GT puts forth.

Now everyone chill the frak out.

No offence, but that's no real justification for just saying "Vegetto > everyone" in a legitimate and intelligent discussion. It would be double standards (or whatever it is I'm trying to say) if we just let it fly on the basis of "It's GT", which, even that itself, has been beaten more times than Muhammed Ali's punchbag.

But yeah, I think we should end it here and get back on-topic.

[Fox666]

Phew, the thing is that Broli is strong as a villain of his own movie. If he was the villain of movie 13, he would be stronger than Gotenks, if he was the villain of movie 4, he probably would barely be able to handle a regular Super Saiyan. For that reason I think it's flawed to measure the strength of a movie character.

Well, yeah, technically, you're kinda right. But it's not really "flawed" to try and measure up a villain's strength in a specific movie to characters in the main series, if it's just for fun. We know that villains have to be as strong as they are to be a threat to the main characters, before they're conveniently taken out by a Toei Punch, or a Dragon Fist, etc. Although someone could make the argument that the same could go for the villains in the main series, despite the fact that it's more vast and less restrained than the 40-minute (or so) movies and the main series villains' defeats are generally less ridiculous than the movie villains'.

The problem is that we don't know how strong the protagonists are during the movies.

For example, in movie 3 Goku, Kuririn and Piccolo have battle powers of 30,000, 10,000 and 18,000. In the movie 5, Goku is almost killed by Sauza whom official battle power is 170,000, and after being revived from the brink of death he defeated Coola whom official sources have always described as being stronger than Freeza, and that is probably only his regular form. Not to mention the pseudo-Super Saiyan and Kaio-ken times 100 from movie 4.

And if the battle power of the characters in these movies doesn't match anywhere in the manga timeline, the story in general doesn't fit anywhere. For example, in movie 6 Dende is already the new Kami, but has Piccolo merged with Kami? The movie was released only 2 chapters after it happened in the manga, meaning the production began much time earlier. Of course Piccolo should have merged with Kami, since Dende is already Kami, however Goku only brought Dende to Earth after he achieved the Full-power Super Saiyan state.

My point is that if we don't know how strong the protagonists are, we can't estimate the villain for sure. We don't even know for sure if their strength only increase from movie to movie. How we know if Goku wasn't stronger against Dr. Urio than Tullece? Based on his techniques? But then again we have the Dende and Goku paradox from movie 6. We could even try switching the positions of movies like 7 and 8.

I think I am digressing too much...

[Saiga]

Okay, here's the truth: GT evidence is honestly not any better than no evidence at all.

The entire series is one big outlandish and shameless clusterfuck of "LET'S HAVE GOKU BE THE BESTEST GUY EVER," and incredibly obviously so. If you're going to involve GT in any sort of power-related discussion, then an understanding of this is necessary. That said, also don't get your underoos in a bunch when people take the headache-free way out and decide not to take GT's "logic" seriously. Because "Vegetto > Everyone" is honestly just as solid and useful a statement as anything GT puts forth. There's a reason why I used to give separate "Normal Logic" and "GT Logic" answers to these things.

Now everyone chill the frak out.

We ARE talking about SS4 Goku here. I don't see how we can not use GT's logic, unless we are talking about a hypothetical SS4 form.

[Fox666]

Because it's not "logic", nobody tought of it during the creation, it's just bad writing.

[FNF]

The Boo arc is bad writing as well. Does that mean I should be saying SSjin2 Kid Gohan>SSjin3 Goku?

SSjin4 Goku is relevant to GT as is Super Baby 2>Vegetto. Saying Vegetto>all in a GT related debate is just plain ridiculous.

[dario03]

The Boo arc is bad writing as well. Does that mean I should be saying SSjin2 Kid Gohan>SSjin3 Goku?

SSjin4 Goku is relevant to GT as is Super Baby 2>Vegetto. Saying Vegetto>all in a GT related debate is just plain ridiculous.

Also the Vegetto ~= Goku x Vegeta didn't come out until long after GT had ended. So the writers couldn't of known how powerful a statement they were making in GT by saying that Super Baby 2 > Vegetto.

(can't believe I just defended GT *shudders*)

[Fox666]

They probably never put much tought when they said Baby or Super Saiyan 4 Goku were the strongest they have ever seen.

[Saiga]

If this hasn't been asked before...

Piccolo (Boo saga) vs Yakon.

[Kaboom]

I figure Yakon to be in the same general tier as, perhaps even slightly ahead of, the base Saiyans. Goku in particular. So Piccolo would wipe the floor with him.

[Senzu_Bean]

Yakon is suppose to be stronger than Kaioshin, which is stronger than Piccolo.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The problem is that we don't know how strong the protagonists are during the movies.

For example, in movie 3 Goku, Kuririn and Piccolo have battle powers of 30,000, 10,000 and 18,000. In the movie 5, Goku is almost killed by Sauza whom official battle power is 170,000, and after being revived from the brink of death he defeated Coola whom official sources have always described as being stronger than Freeza, and that is probably only his regular form. Not to mention the pseudo-Super Saiyan and Kaio-ken times 100 from movie 4.

And if the battle power of the characters in these movies doesn't match anywhere in the manga timeline, the story in general doesn't fit anywhere. For example, in movie 6 Dende is already the new Kami, but has Piccolo merged with Kami? The movie was released only 2 chapters after it happened in the manga, meaning the production began much time earlier. Of course Piccolo should have merged with Kami, since Dende is already Kami, however Goku only brought Dende to Earth after he achieved the Full-power Super Saiyan state.

My point is that if we don't know how strong the protagonists are, we can't estimate the villain for sure. We don't even know for sure if their strength only increase from movie to movie. How we know if Goku wasn't stronger against Dr. Urio than Tullece? Based on his techniques? But then again we have the Dende and Goku paradox from movie 6. We could even try switching the positions of movies like 7 and 8.

I think I am digressing too much...

Well, the movies kind of mirror the main series themselves, with DBZ Movie #1 mirroring the Raditz part of the Saiyan arc, #2 mirroring the Vegeta fight, etc. So you can go from there with your own speculations. But like I said, we understand that, but it's just for fun.

Yeah, DBZ Movie #3's battle powers are random (and Goku's BP was actually "30,000 and rising", but from that, you can say that, because Tullece was fighting evenly with Goku, he was around or above 30,000, and then, after he ate the fruit, he was over 300,000, since he beat down Goku at Kaio-ken x10. But judging by Goku's gi and usage of Kaio-ken (up to x10) and Genki-Dama, you could say he's somewhere between his Saiyan arc and Freeza arc selves.

I don't recall Goku almost being killed by Sauza. Wasn't that Coola who shot a blast into an off-guard Goku's back when he was trying to protect Gohan? And, aside from official sources (which, yes, I know they're official, but it's hard not to debate the validity), in the movie itself, I remember Coola only being mentioned to be stronger than Freeza after he transformed, which makes sense, since, unlike Freeza, Coola had reached a transformation (fifth form) above his true form. And how much power Zenkais give vary from very small to very large, and that's if it was even treated as a Zenkai in the movie itself. I don't think they even mentioned that Goku had gotten stronger, unless you're talking about when he powered up, which could be explained that he was just releasing his power to the forefront (which is how I always interpreted it).

In DBZ Movie #4, the "pseudo-Super Saiyan" was actually treated as the true Super Saiyan because it was before the actual Super Saiyan made its debut in the manga. And Kaio-ken x100 is bullshit. It just doesn't make a lick of sense, even if it is an official source on a movie.

And I think you know the movies aren't necessarily supposed to fit anywhere in particular in the main story, because they're more like side-stories, or an alternate universe, stuff like that. So, no, Dende perhaps shouldn't be God, but from the looks of it, Goku and Vegeta are their Android-arc incarnations, as is Piccolo, but before he merged with God, as he doesn't appear stronger than the Super Saiyans and is only fighting henchmen with Gohan and Kuririn, rather than the main villain like Goku and Vegeta. I wouldn't think about it too much when...well, Toei obviously didn't, and we're not supposed to, we're just supposed to watch it for fun and take it as it is.

And, even this might sound a bit contradictory, since the movies themselves don't necessarily follow logic, but to me, logically the movie villains should become stronger as the movies go on, like in the main series. Goku is obviously stronger in DBZ Movie #2 than he was in DBZ Movie #1, as he's assumedly had Kaio's training and can use the Kaio-ken and Genki-Dama. Coola's explicitly stated to be stronger than before in his second movie, as is Broli. To be fair, it's actually pretty consistent.

Goku wouldn't have been stronger against Dr. Uiro than he was against Tullece, because in DBZ Movie #2, he only used Kaio-ken up to x4, whereas in DBZ Movie #3, he could now use it up to x10 (which, in the main series itself, he only reached during his training towards Namek). I don't think switching around Movies #7 and #8 would work either, because Gohan is a Super Saiyan and one of the main fighters in #8, whereas he's only a support character in #7, with the main focus on Goku, Vegeta and Trunks (as in the early Android arc).

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yakon is suppose to be stronger than Kaioshin, which is stronger than Piccolo.

No, he's not. People have different interpretations of that scene. And how would Yakon be stronger than Kaioshin if he appeared to be in the same tier as the base Saiyans? Unless you believe "Base Saiyans > Piccolo".

[Kaboom]

I'm basing my very rough estimate Yakon's power mostly on Gohan's reactions to him. At first, when Kaioshin is wetting himself, Gohan tells him not to worry and that Goku's got this in the bag. This is most likely because even if Yakon has an edge at first, he knows Goku has Super Saiyan to whip out and instantly make himself 50x stronger and demolish the ugly whatsit. But then when Goku's Super Saiyan is seemingly taken out of the picture, things change. THEN Gohan changes his mind, and offers to hop in and help, saying something like, "we won't need Super Saiyan if we work together!"

So this says to me that Yakon is stronger than base Goku, but not strong enough that base Goku and Gohan couldn't take him down with a team effort. Then since I don't buy into the "base Saiyans > Kaioshin > Piccolo" thing, that means Piccolo could easily rip off both of Yakon's arm's and skewer him with his own retractable blades.

[Senzu_Bean]

Yakon is suppose to be stronger than Kaioshin, which is stronger than Piccolo.

No, he's not. People have different interpretations of that scene. And how would Yakon be stronger than Kaioshin if he appeared to be in the same tier as the base Saiyans? Unless you believe "Base Saiyans > Piccolo".

I'm just going by Yakon's character bio in the Daizenshuu. It says Yakon is a monster than even Kaioshin fears and I interpret that as Yakon being stronger than Kaioshin. That doesn't have anything to do with fan-made theories or multipliers.

[Kaboom]

Kaioshin is afraid of... most things.

[Senzu_Bean]

Kaioshin is afraid of... most things.

He is afraid of Majin Buu, Dabra, Yakon and fears Babidi's magic. It is justifiable that he fears the king of the Demon Realm, the strongest in universe and the guy who created the guy who killed all Kaioshins but him and can destroy pretty much everything. But that is just my interpretation of Yakon's bio.