Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

[MasterVampire]

The way I see it is that Paikuhan just caught Cell off guard and probably put a lot of strength into that kick.
Like how ssj2 Vegeta knocked ssj2 Goku out when they stopped fighting for a minute.

Also from that fight later on Paikuhan is close to ssj Goku in strength.
And Goku couldnt beat Cell, ssj2 Gohan did.

So they both are not stronger than Cell which ends up with Cell just being caught off guard.

[Fox666]

The expression on his face is irrelevant if no lasting damage is present.
He looked as tense as he did the entire fight when he struck back at Goku anyway.
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7311/paikuhan.png

Even if he looked like that attack knocked the shit outta him, you'd need more than an expression as support to say he was in pain. Just have a look at the expression on Toei's SSJ4 Goku to blows that apparently tickle him.
http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/3618/ticklej.png

That kind of animation sequence is so unconvincing... I hate when Freeza spent a whole episode hitting Goku in the face, and in the end Goku just say they didn't do any good.

[Perfect]

On a side note: I thought the whole Freeza going all out on Goku and it doing absolutely nothing was hilarious.

[dbgtFO]

Freeza spent a whole episode hitting Goku in the face, and in the end Goku just say they didn't do any good.

On a side note: I thought the whole Freeza going all out on Goku and it doing absolutely nothing was hilarious.

Are you both talking about, when Freeza had first powered up to 100%?

[Fox666]

You didn't state anything about "lasting damage". He was clearly hurt by the attack, which is the point I made, be more specific next time. For all we know the "Super Kaio-ken" could be a very small boost or even less because of SSJ, no one really knows.

And Goku shouldn't be able to fight Cell with a very small boost?

At the time the episode was released the Super Saiyan 2 had just appeared in the manga and the Super Exciting Guide was not avaiable, so the animation team would have no idea that Cell should be over 2 times stronger than Goku.

Are you both talking about, when Freeza had first powered up to 100%?

Yes. I hate that scene in the anime.

[Perfect]

What're you talking about? Cell's full power in itself aside from the post-zenkai would still murder Goku.

[Fox666]

There is no official battle power record for the Cell saga, so the animation team could have interpretated that Cell was 1.01 stronger than Goku and 1.02 after his self-destruction. The only thing telling the opposite is the Super Exciting Guide, which was not avaiable at the time.

There's no evidence in the episode that Cell's power was anywhere near his post-zenkai strength. The only logic anyone seems to adhere to is that scan, in which it just says he retains his strength from Earth. That's so vague it could mean a variety of things. That in itself is open to interpretation, whereas there's no evidence in the story Cell was powered up. Notice the scan doesn't say, "Cell was exactly as powerful as he was when he was killed by Gohan".

I would expect it to be the other way around... the episode is open for interpretation, not a direct statement in a publication.

[Perfect]

Nothing implies what you're saying to be true though, you're just making up theories. The only evidence they had to go by was what they already animated, which was Goku being piss-pants scared of Cell's strength. Considering his suppressed form was already stronger, there's a pretty large margin for "Cell > Goku".

I don't see how no sparks, aura, need to power up, evidence of a power up beforehand or during is open to interpretation, it's pretty cut and dry.

[Fox666]

Nothing implies what you're saying to be true though, you're just making up theories. The only evidence they had to go by was what they already animated, which was Goku being piss-pants scared of Cell's strength. Considering his suppressed form was already stronger, there's a pretty large margin for "Cell > Goku".

What is a "large margin"? Is 1.03 enough?

[dbgtFO]

I don't see how no sparks, aura, need to power up, evidence of a power up beforehand or during is open to interpretation, it's pretty cut and dry.

Which is why I personally see it the same way as Trunks vs Freeza. No stated or visually shown power-up, but heavily implied to be no match anyway to in turn hype up the next big thing.

[Perfect]

Well let's see, suppressed is enough to beat Goku and Cell powers up to the point of where the entire planet shakes and both his speed and power increase to the point of where everyone's wetting themselves, I'd think it'd be easily more than x2. That's speculation, but granted, the animation team shouldn't have trouble understanding Cell > Goku.

[Fox666]

If Cell was 2 times stronger than Goku, shouldn't the Super Saiyan 2 be ineffective against him going by the multipliers in the Super Exciting Guide? And Dabura is supposedly as strong as Cell, and Gohan could fight him fairly well.

So what about 1.04 for Cell after he survived his self-destruction?

[Perfect]

Dabra is only revered as being as "dangerous" as Cell, don't go by the dub.

Not entirely, seeing that Gohan's base was far above Goku's. Le'ts just use an example set of powers:

Goku: 10

Gohan: 15

Cell suppressed: 16

Cell full power: 20

Gohan SSJ2: 30

Cell post-zenkai: 30

Gohan injured: 15 (Remember he states he loses half his power; making it impossible for Cell to be weaker than his injured state, because that would mean he got weaker from his zenkai boost)

If Cell's twice as strong as Goku, then his post-zenkai boost would be 3 times as strong as him.

[Fox666]

Dabra is only revered as being as "dangerous" as Cell, don't go by the dub.

From the Stregth Checker:

Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”

Goku: “Magic, huh? He’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”

From the Daizenshuu:

On top of having a battle power equal to Cell's, he is also skilled in magic.

[Perfect]

He says probably, meaning he's showing a presence of not caring because he's not a threat. There's no real thought put into it, plus he's revered as dangerous because of his magical skills. If we look at Gohan's strength, which had decreased exponentially, as opposed to linearly, it'd still be nothing in SSJ2 compared to post-zenkai Cell.

What we have here is a rough estimate by a Goku that's being nonchalant and a significantly weaker SSJ2 Gohan that's fighting evenly with Dabra. All signs point towards post-zenkai Cell to being stronger.

[Fox666]

Why are you talking about Cell after he survived his self-destruction? The subject was his strength before that.

If an even weaker Gohan can fight evenly with Dabra, who is supposedly equal to Cell, then why would you assume he was a whole lot stronger than Goku? And since the animation team would not know the multiplier of Super Saiyan 2, Cell power could be anything in Hell.

Not entirely, seeing that Gohan's base was far above Goku's. Le'ts just use an example set of powers:

(battle power list)

If Cell's twice as strong as Goku, then his post-zenkai boost would be 3 times as strong as him.

I have absolute no idea where all this math come from. I know the Super Saiyan 2 multiply the strength by 2, the rest I have no idea.

[lash]

The sharpness of the blade has nothing to do with it, that's like saying, "damn that rock Goku threw sure was powerful, must've been the rock!"

Of course it has something to do with it. Your example wasn't really a good one either.
If I try really hard I can pierce a metal with a well made knife and leave a somewhat deep indent. Could I do that with my own power? Course not. Cutting an object with a tool has less to do with your power and more to do with the cutting power of the object. That's the same reason Cold thought he could beat Trunks with it.

You just contradicted yourself. If he were able to move, he would have. You state his chi is gone, in which he's defeated (Hence why he didn't move). That would be another indication in itself that he was rendered immobile. The fact you state all his chi was gone is merely a theory at that, as opposed to being knocked out.

I didn't.
Ki to move, as in enough to fight back. Not Ki to flail his hands in utter defeat.

Doesn't matter, without either of them he would have been murdered in cold blood. Cell wasn't struggling at all with him, he was about to finish him off afterall, until Vegeta intervened.

The point I'm making is, being able to beat Cell doesn't mean Paikuhan or Goku or w.e is up to Gohan's tier.
Gohan erased the fella's entirety with less than half power. Take that as you will, but that is what it is.

You didn't state anything about "lasting damage". He was clearly hurt by the attack, which is the point I made, be more specific next time.

I did say damage didn't I? Don't see how much more specific I could get. I didn't even utter the words pain or hurt in my first response...that's a fault on your own interpretation.

For all we know the "Super Kaio-ken" could be a very small boost or even less because of SSJ, no one really knows.

It's Kaioken while a Super Saiyan. Apply the razor, and you get its standard two times battle power increase along with Super Saiyan. I'd say thinking otherwise is just grasping at straws, honestly.

There's no evidence in the episode that Cell's power was anywhere near his post-zenkai strength.

There's absolutely no reason why he he'd be weaker. Being relaxed and unserious while charging at that moment is one thing. But his absolute power, which Paikuhan overpowered anyway...wouldn't have changed.

The only logic anyone seems to adhere to is that scan, in which it just says he retains his strength from Earth. That's so vague it could mean a variety of things. That in itself is open to interpretation, whereas there's no evidence in the story Cell was powered up. Notice the scan doesn't say, "Cell was exactly as powerful as he was when he was killed by Gohan".

Its simple. "The Cell vs Paikuhan picture says Cell’s strength wasn’t any different in Hell." Therefore his power is the same as normal. Which would be the strength before he died. After all, Saiyans don't lose their near death powerup when they die. There's really no other way of interpreting the scan without twisting it significantly.

As for Post near death powered up Cell not utilizing his full power as he rushed to fight Goku...

It doesn't matter anyway:
->

Even for some random reason someone isn't convinced Cell attacked at full power by the scan, since Cell had no energy left to do anything(and was still completely conscious) after he was attacked, Paikuhan's attack should and does exceed Post near death powerup Cell's power anyway.

[Perfect]

Again, the sharpness has nothing to do with it. You're confusing real life with Dragon Ball for some reason. A blade alone won't pierce his natural accumulation of chi.

I didn't.
Ki to move, as in enough to fight back. Not Ki to flail his hands in utter defeat.

You're not making much sense here, at all... It's pretty obvious Cell was rendered immobile and as it's already been said your theory has a huge hole in it, in which Cell would still need TIME to recover.

The point I'm making is, being able to beat Cell doesn't mean Paikuhan or Goku or w.e is up to Gohan's tier.

Okay, we're on equal terms if this is what you believe; for the most part.

I did say damage didn't I? Don't see how much more specific I could get. I didn't even utter the words pain or hurt in my first response...that's a fault on your own interpretation.

No, that's your fault. I can get hit in the face and be momentarily stunned, giving me a nose bleed. That's taking damage, whereas taking lasting damage would be like being heavily winded having bones broken.

It's Kaioken while a Super Saiyan. Apply the razor, and you get its standard two times battle power increase along with Super Saiyan. I'd say thinking otherwise is just grasping at straws, honestly.

Nothing states the "Super Kaio-ken" is a x2 boost, that's entirely speculation. You're grasping straws here.

There's absolutely no reason why he he'd be weaker. Being relaxed and unserious while charging at that moment is one thing. But his absolute power, which Paikuhan overpowered anyway...wouldn't have changed.

Again, one doesn't always stay in their most powerful state. Cell's no exception to this, and you haven't proved he was at "full power" anywhere besides speculating theories, whereas I've provided factual, contextual evidence from the episode itself.

Its simple. "The Cell vs Paikuhan picture says Cell’s strength wasn’t any different in Hell." Therefore his power is the same as normal. Which would be the strength before he died. After all, Saiyans don't lose their near death powerup when they die. There's really no other way of interpreting the scan without twisting it significantly.

The strength he died at isn't his normal strength, it never is for any character. You're saying Goku's powered up state was his normal strength when he died during the Cell Games? No, that's the most illogical thing I've heard. Even a child should be able to understand one's normal power isn't their maximum. You're the one that's twisting an already vague scan, in which is just states he retains his power from Earth, meaning he's at his normal power. Nothing explicitly states he's powered up, ever.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

What exactly happened that requires us to know if Paikuhan is stronger than Cell? That he was rung-out by Super Sayain Goku?

If we're using Goku vs Cell as the basis for this, than the whole thing is off because Goku and Cell both properly powered-up before it was made clear that Cell had the edge.

[Perfect]

We're using the fact that Cell never showed any signs of being near his post-zenkai level. The Goku vs. Pikkon fight is just a bonus.