Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

[lash]

Again, the sharpness has nothing to do with it. You're confusing real life with Dragon Ball for some reason. A blade alone won't pierce his natural accumulation of chi.

It can and it has.
Like I said, that's exactly what Trunks' blade did.

Vegeta's Ki simply wasn't high enough to repel the blade's pierce.

Even forgetting Vegeta's Ki for a moment, your argument falls by the fact that Kuririn's full powered attack each had enough force to destroy a Saibaman, yet did absolutely no damage to Vegeta and Nappa...including their powerful armor. While Yaj's blade can pierce through Vegeta's armor.

Obviously Yaj(officially clocked at 970) isn't stronger than Kuririn(officially clocked at 1770). But his attack was more effective.

You're not making much sense here, at all... It's pretty obvious Cell was rendered immobile and as it's already been said your theory has a huge hole in it, in which Cell would still need TIME to recover.

Don't see what you mean. Cell's Ki in its entirety was overpowered and taken out in one blow. He has no energy to fight back, no energy to powerup and sit Paikuhan, and can merely flail his arms like a bird. If he had this power you think he was holding back(as in you don't think his Ki in its entireity was overpowered and all taken out by Paikuhan's attack), he had ample time to powerup and use it. He didn't, and since he's completely conscious unlike Goku's scenario with Vegeta...there's no excuse. Therefore Paikuhan's attack > Post near death powerup Cell.

No, that's your fault. I can get hit in the face and be momentarily stunned, giving me a nose bleed. That's taking damage, whereas taking lasting damage would be like being heavily winded having bones broken.

Same difference, same thing. Damage is damage. "Lasting" isn't even lasting considering they just get healed after the fight.
Either way. Paikuhan took neither type of damage in that attack as we saw.

Nothing states the "Super Kaio-ken" is a x2 boost, that's entirely speculation. You're grasping straws here.

Again: Occam's Razor.
It's really as simple as that. Until you have some better evidence on your side, your opposing idea is grasping quite frantically.

Again, one doesn't always stay in their most powerful state. Cell's no exception to this, and you haven't proved he was at "full power" anywhere besides speculating theories, whereas I've provided factual, contextual evidence from the episode itself.

Cell doesn't transform in the Super Saiyan sense. He is Cell, and always has access to his Full power.
Besides...Your entire argument falls on itself by the fact that Cell wasn't in hell in an imperfect form. Therefore even if we go by the wacky idea that he can undergo SSJ like transformations...he IS an exception to the rule of staying in their most powerful state.

The strength he died at isn't his normal strength, it never is for any character. You're saying Goku's powered up state was his normal strength when he died during the Cell Games? No, that's the most illogical thing I've heard. Even a child should be able to understand one's normal power isn't their maximum. You're the one that's twisting an already vague scan, in which is just states he retains his power from Earth, meaning he's at his normal power. Nothing explicitly states he's powered up, ever.

Define 'normal'. Poor example. How bout you try Goku when he died in the Saiyan arc without transformations. I guess he never had access to his full power the entire time he was with Kaio-sama.

The scan is clear. Cell's power hasn't changed from when he died.

Personally I'm beginning to think you're badly misinterpreting me anyway. Because a lot of what you're saying from my angle is quite honestly a horribly conceived argument. So I'll clear myself up once and only once so we have a good understanding.

For starters, I'm not 100%(as in, it's debatable) saying Cell was exactly as poweredup as he was before he died by Gohan, when Paikuhan attacked him. I'm saying that he 100%(not debatable) does have access to the same exact power he had on Earth before he died. Just as what the scan obviously states. In other words Cell might have been relaxed when he charged at Goku unlike how he was when he fought Gohan, but his absolute power hasn't changed. Then I went on to say(for the third time)

Even for some random reason someone isn't convinced Cell attacked at full power by the scan, since Cell had no energy left to do anything(and was still completely conscious) after he was attacked, Paikuhan's attack should and does exceed Post near death powerup Cell's power anyway.

And that's what it is.
So I'm waiting on your refute. I noticed you haven't completely addressed my original post's statements either.

The next episode Goku even hypes Paikuhan to Kaio-sama and explained how he finished Paikuhan off in a flash in his own words. He attributes this to Pauikuhan's power by saying "he's really powerful". Since Goku was there, and we weren't, and he considers the fight a completely legitimate finish on Paikuhan's part...it is what it is. Kaio-sama isn't even like "WTF, NO WAI", he pretty much says "Yeah okay", didn't care, and states that Paikuhan isn't the only powerful one there. This is the same Kaio-sama who felt FPSSJ Goku's power from his world(filler) and knows how powerful Cell after his near death powerup is. Cell simply wasn't anything special by this arc.

As far as I'm concerned, this:

SSJ Gohan FP >=< Post-zenkai Cell > SSJ2 Injured Gohan > Paikuhan's attack > Cell FP (Basically what I see him at during the Hell filler) > Goku

Doesn't hold.
Because Paikuhan didn't defeat a "Cell FP"(assuming you mean pre near death power up Cell?) he defeated and surpassed a "Post-zenkai Cell"... whether Cell was or was not initially attacking at full power being irrelevant by reasons explained.

[bizness86]

Hm...

I honestly don't mind the Burning Shoot explanation, if only there was some source, Toei-made or related, that clearly purveys the notion of Burning Shoot anticipating Kaio-ken.

Other than no particular source, it would make sense with respect to the anime:

• North Kaio and, the otherwise non-canonical, East Kaio are portrayed as rivals.
• Both Paikuhan and Son Goku have shown to be the prized pupil of the respective Kaio.
• Each fighters would seem to have techniques that mirror one another; Burning Shoot to Kaio-ken; Genki Dama to Thunder Flash. I would assume that Paikuhan's Hyper Tornado would be as signature to Paikuhan as Kamehameha was to Goku.

I could only think of asking whether anyone owns a game in which Burning Shoot is referenced as akin to Kaio-ken.

As far as Cell goes, I could assume that he wouldn't need to be at full power to defeat Goku...?

[Perfect]

It can and it has.
Like I said, that's exactly what Trunks' blade did.

Vegeta's Ki simply wasn't high enough to repel the blade's pierce.

Even forgetting Vegeta's Ki for a moment, your argument falls by the fact that Kuririn's full powered attack each had enough force to destroy a Saibaman, yet did absolutely no damage to Vegeta and Nappa...including their powerful armor. While Yaj's blade can pierce through Vegeta's armor.

Obviously Yaj(officially clocked at 970) isn't stronger than Kuririn(officially clocked at 1770). But his attack was more effective.

If a normal person tried to ram a blade into Vegeta, it'd do nothing. You forget entirely Vegeta's heavily weakened at this point as well, rendering your entire argument moot.

Don't see what you mean. Cell's Ki in its entirety was overpowered and taken out in one blow. He has no energy to fight back, no energy to powerup and sit Paikuhan, and can merely flail his arms like a bird. If he had this power you think he was holding back(as in you don't think his Ki in its entireity was overpowered and all taken out by Paikuhan's attack), he had ample time to powerup and use it. He didn't, and since he's completely conscious unlike Goku's scenario with Vegeta...there's no excuse. Therefore Paikuhan's attack > Post near death powerup Cell.

Uhm, no. Cell had no time to recover because he was immobilized. Stunned from the attack. Goku had SSJ3 in reserve when he was fighting Vegeta, would he have been able to use that while he was stunned or unconscious? No, not all. If Vegeta punches Goku so hard that he's rendered immobile, there's nothing he can do until he recovers from the attack. It's that simple. Therefore Post-zenkai Cell > Pikkon's attack. There's also nothing that says he had no energy to fight back, he was stunned the entire time.

Same difference, same thing. Damage is damage. "Lasting" isn't even lasting considering they just get healed after the fight.
Either way. Paikuhan took neither type of damage in that attack as we saw.

No there isn't a same difference. If I hit my head, I exert an expression of pain in which it's visibly noticeable for a moment. If I break my arm, there's notable lasting damage. Pikkon shows the first example of pain, he's briefly scuffed and shown to be injured, but recovers while Goku charges his beam.

Again: Occam's Razor.
It's really as simple as that. Until you have some better evidence on your side, your opposing idea is grasping quite frantically.

You're the one that's grasping, seeing that nothing states what the boost is. Leaving it entirely open to speculation. If you say otherwise, then you're dead wrong.

Cell doesn't transform in the Super Saiyan sense. He is Cell, and always has access to his Full power.
Besides...Your entire argument falls on itself by the fact that Cell wasn't in hell in an imperfect form. Therefore even if we go by the wacky idea that he can undergo SSJ like transformations...he IS an exception to the rule of staying in their most powerful state.

I never stated he transformed into SSJ, you're putting words into my mouth now. I never even used the word transform. Cell was in Hell and imperfect? Did you even watch the episode? That's Perfect Cell. Not to mention you just proved yourself wrong here. You state he has access to that full power he has, thus stating he only has access to such and he isn't explicitly at that level of power at any point. Are you literally running out of ideas that bad that you have to make things up and say I said them?

For starters, I'm not 100%(as in, it's debatable) saying Cell was exactly as poweredup as he was before he died by Gohan, when Paikuhan attacked him. I'm saying that he 100%(not debatable) does have access to the same exact power he had on Earth before he died. Just as what the scan obviously states. In other words Cell might have been relaxed when he charged at Goku unlike how he was when he fought Gohan, but his absolute power hasn't changed.

By normal power I mean the power he's suppressed at, or rather content with on a daily basis. I've stated before he should have access to his full power, as the scan says, but it's clear he isn't at that full power. I never stated he didn't have access to that power at all.

Even for some random reason someone isn't convinced Cell attacked at full power by the scan, since Cell had no energy left to do anything(and was still completely conscious) after he was attacked, Paikuhan's attack should and does exceed Post near death powerup Cell's power anyway.

You contradicted yourself... Again. You just stated Cell was possibly relaxed when he charged Goku, meaning that he wasn't at his full power. There's nothing that implies Cell had no energy to anything, just not enough time to recover, that seems pretty evident here.

The next episode Goku even hypes Paikuhan to Kaio-sama and explained how he finished Paikuhan off in a flash in his own words. He attributes this to Pauikuhan's power by saying "he's really powerful". Since Goku was there, and we weren't, and he considers the fight a completely legitimate finish on Paikuhan's part...it is what it is. Kaio-sama isn't even like "WTF, NO WAI", he pretty much says "Yeah okay", didn't care, and states that Paikuhan isn't the only powerful one there. This is the same Kaio-sama who felt FPSSJ Goku's power from his world(filler) and knows how powerful Cell after his near death powerup is. Cell simply wasn't anything special by this arc.

That doesn't dispute anything I've said about Cell still being stronger, as I've stated before in this thread, Goku is just amazed by the fact he was able to beat Cell, from any angle.

Doesn't hold.
Because Paikuhan didn't defeat a "Cell FP"(assuming you mean pre near death power up Cell?) he defeated and surpassed a "Post-zenkai Cell"... whether Cell was or was not initially attacking at full power being irrelevant by reasons explained.

I've taken a wild guess and placed his power at his full power before his post-zenkai boost, which would yes indeed, be suppressed post-zenkai Cell. Again, nothing supports your theory that Cell had no energy to move. Your theory revolves around just that, a theory. It's the theory that Cell should automatically be able to counter because he'd have power in reserve, in which TIME is the main factor here. He was stunned pretty bad with two hits. Nothing implies what you're saying, it's entirely speculation.

[lash]

If a normal person tried to ram a blade into Vegeta, it'd do nothing. You forget entirely Vegeta's heavily weakened at this point as well, rendering your entire argument moot.

I feel like my entire post just flew right over your head. I'm just repeating myself now.

Doesn't matter. Vegeta being weakened is irrelevant. His armor was pierced by Yaj. A stronger Kuririn couldn't do anything to it.
Therefore the material is simply a very sharp blade capable of penetrating Vegeta's armor and hurting his weakened skin. That essentially annihilates any counter refute you had going with this scenario. So lets move on. "To damage someone off guard you still have to be within their level of power." You can attempt another example. Go.

Uhm, no. Cell had no time to recover because he was immobilized. Stunned from the attack.

Cell was shown able to flail his arms. He wasn't immobilized, and he wasn't stunned. He was conscious(when has this combination ever even happened in the series..being 'immobolized' and 'stunned', while still conscious? To the point in costs them the battle? That's right, never.) Cell was as helpless as the Ginyu Force in the fight. I guess the Ginyu Force were only 'stunned' and immobilized, and just didn't have enough time to pick themselves up to powerup to full power and stomp Paikuhan too, huh? Its not like anyone would have to move anyway. Cell just thinks, increases his Ki to full power, and energy overflows into each limb, enabling him to fully move and wtf pwn Paikuhan... if he had energy in reserve and was stronger. He didn't. Therefore he had no power left and his full power wasn't stronger than Paikuhan's attack. It's really just that simple. As you put it

Even a child should be able to understand

Goku had SSJ3 in reserve when he was fighting Vegeta, would he have been able to use that while he was stunned or unconscious?

lol, I don't know why you keep bringing up such useless examples. Goku was unconscious. He couldn't move. Cell could somewhat move, Cell was conscious. That's not even normal full power reserves, that's a whole transformation.

he was stunned the entire time.

Seems you don't understand the difference between being stunned and utterly defeated.

Paikuhan shows the first example of pain, he's briefly scuffed and shown to be injured, but recovers while Goku charges his beam.

The SSJ4 Goku example pretty much puts this perspective to rest anyway. Face it, there's no proof Paikuhan was injured in the slighted by Goku. Absolutely none. Not visually, not verbally.

You're the one that's grasping, seeing that nothing states what the boost is. Leaving it entirely open to speculation. If you say otherwise, then you're dead wrong.

Kaioken is 2x. Super Kaioken is obviously Super Saiyan and Kaioken, as in a Super Saiyan using Kaioken. Apply the razor and you're done. The most likely choice is apparent. A 2 times boost along with the nifty 50x battle power increase. Arguing against it in a losing argument with absolutely no backup evidence, is doing what I said earlier...grasping frantically. Especially when you're up against the Razor.

Not to mention you just proved yourself wrong here. You state he has access to that full power he has, thus stating he only has access to such and he isn't explicitly at that level of power at any point. Are you literally running out of ideas that bad that you have to make things up and say I said them?

Please reconstruct these sentences. I can't make out what exactly you mean and what you're getting at.

By normal power I mean the power he's suppressed at, or rather content with on a daily basis. I've stated before he should have access to his full power, as the scan says, but it's clear he isn't at that full power. I never stated he didn't have access to that power at all.

Good. Now next recognize that it doesn't matter. Paikuhan proved he surpassed Cell because Cell had no energy left to fight back, despite being fully conscious and capable of some limited degree of movement.

You contradicted yourself... Again. You just stated Cell was possibly relaxed when he charged Goku, meaning that he wasn't at his full power. There's nothing that implies Cell had no energy to anything, just not enough time to recover, that seems pretty evident here.

Please enlighten me how I'm contradicting myself.
If Cell had accessible power left, he wouldn't need any time to recover. He'd just powerup and own Paikuhan. Releasing your power doesn't take time, and doesn't require physical effort and would help in any 'stunning' you keep mentioning as it would fill Cell's body with more Ki. He didn't, therefore Paikuhan's attack is stronger. It shouldn't be too difficult to understand. Do you know what happened to Piccolo Daimao after he was by definition 'stunned' and temporary 'immobilized'(he got floored) by Son Goku? He didn't lose all his energy to the point he can't fly or use Bukujutsu and get tossed into some needles that's for sure. Piccolo apparently powered up(impossible to visually tell, as it was instant and required no physical effort. He wasn't even at 100%) and showed Goku who's boss. So we can DEFINITELY for sure say Piccolo's full power > Goku/ Goku's attacks >Piccolo initially

How bout Cell's scenario? Oh wait. Yeah that's right, he did get tossed into some needles. I guess this wouldn't make much sense then: Cell's full power > Paikuhan's attack > Cell initially, considering it never happened.

The fact that it never happened in the first place(Paikuhan's attack annihilated and overpowered all Cell's reserves), obviously means Paikuhan's attack > Cell's Full power > Cell initially.

That doesn't dispute anything I've said about Cell still being stronger, as I've stated before in this thread, Goku is just amazed by the fact he was able to beat Cell, from any angle.

It certainly hinders it. Even Kaio-sama implies Cell's power was never really anything special, and isn't shocked that Paikuhan defeated him.
If Cell was defeated unfairly, it wouldn't have been impressive to Goku. Goku wouldn't have said Paikuhan defeated Cell in a flash...wow he's powerful type hype. He would have mentioned something more realistic that although Cell wasn't going all out, Paikuhan is still quite powerful. Face it. There's absolutely nothing suggesting that Cell was still magically stronger than Paikuhan, despite Paikuhan being shown to single handedly crush him. I think you're forgetting Goku and Kaio can read Ki moreover.

I've taken a wild guess and placed his power at his full power before his post-zenkai boost, which would yes indeed, be suppressed post-zenkai Cell. Again, nothing supports your theory that Cell had no energy to move.

Nothing supports your first sentence here. Nothing supports my 'theory' that Cell had no energy to move? Rofl, how is it a theory...when its exactly what happened? Last I checked, Cell got owned, didn't appear to have any fighting energy to fight back or even use Bukujutsu against some needles despite being completely conscious, able to breathe, able to yell, and able to flail around his hands and feet. Sooner or later, you're just going to realize what's theory(your 'guesses' and Paikuhan being immobilized and stunned) and what's fact.

Your theory revolves around just that, a theory. It's the theory that Cell should automatically be able to counter because he'd have power in reserve, in which TIME is the main factor here. He was stunned pretty bad with two hits. Nothing implies what you're saying, it's entirely speculation.

Oh man. Just stop. Please.
It takes mere moments to powerup, and requires no physical effort. Nothing implies what your saying. Nothing implies Cell was "stunned" or immobilized". Nothing in this arc at all implies Cell's maximum power > Paikuhan's attack.


Lets layout the grounds shall we?:

Lash's argument:
Paikuhan's attack > Cell's maximum power

-It's freakin shown. What more do you need? Cell had no energy left to even use Bukujutsu after Paikuhan dealt with him. I mean are we even forgetting that Paikuhan likely wasn't even trying his absolute hardest there?
-Goku hypes it up and calls Paikuhan powerful. He wouldn't hype up Paikuhan to Kaio(one who felt Cell's peak)for beating Cell if his attack truly wasn't stronger than Cell's maximum. He'd instead make it a point to mention such.


Perfect's argument:
Cell's maximum power > Paikuhan's attack

-N/A

By the sound of your name, and your avatar I can tell you're a bit on the biased side, and it definitely shows. But come on, lets come to grips with it. Paikuhan wrecked Cell. I saw it. You saw it. Everyone saw it. Cell had a chance to prove he wasn't a punk as Paikuhan dealt with Freeza and Cold, to use his super duper SSJ2 tier reserves, powerup(as he was shown completely conscious), and teach Paikuhan who's boss. He didn't. And couldn't as so much help himself against some needles. The facts are laid. The picture is clear. Paikuhan's attack > Cell's maximum power.

[Perfect]

I had to type all this twice seeing I wasn't logged in, so don't blame me if it's a little late.

I feel like my entire post just flew right over your head. I'm just repeating myself now.

Doesn't matter. Vegeta being weakened is irrelevant. His armor was pierced by Yaj. A stronger Kuririn couldn't do anything to it.
Therefore the material is simply a very sharp blade capable of penetrating Vegeta's armor and hurting his weakened skin. That essentially annihilates any counter refute you had going with this scenario. So lets move on. "To damage someone off guard you still have to be within their level of power." You can attempt another example. Go.

Vegeta's armor wasn't affected because he braced himself. The blast wasn't powerful enough to break his armor because the level of chi surrounding it was far beyond. By your logic, Chaozu's self-destruct shouldn't have destroyed Nappa's armor. Goku charged a large amount of chi into his finger, and thus was unharmed by Trunks' sword. The same principle applies here. The fact his blade is sharp has nothing to do with the fact it could penetrate his chi.
Factors:

Vegeta's injured
Vegeta's off guard
Yajirobe is near injured Vegeta's off guard level

You do the math, it isn't hard.

Cell was shown able to flail his arms. He wasn't immobilized, and he wasn't stunned. He was conscious(when has this combination ever even happened in the series..being 'immobolized' and 'stunned', while still conscious? To the point in costs them the battle? That's right, never.)

Nothing states his chi in all it's entirety is over powered. People's bodies tend to have spasms when they get hit really hard briefly from the shock wave being sent through the central nervous system. He just didn't have the time he needed to recover. Gohan punches Cell twice and renders him stunned or otherwise immobile, he can't walk and stumbles to the ground, unable to stand. This didn't cost him the battle but it's a fine example of being stunned and damaged severely. Plus he was still conscious at the time too. Conscious, immobile and stunned!? Must be a plot hole right? -rolls eyes-

Cell was as helpless as the Ginyu Force in the fight. I guess the Ginyu Force were only 'stunned' and immobilized, and just didn't have enough time to pick themselves up to powerup to full power and stomp Paikuhan too, huh? Its not like anyone would have to move anyway.

The Ginyu Force can't conceal their powers, so their normal powers are their maximums, it'd make no difference.

Cell just thinks, increases his Ki to full power, and energy overflows into each limb, enabling him to fully move and wtf pwn Paikuhan... if he had energy in reserve and was stronger.

Not enough time to recover to do such a thing.

He didn't. Therefore he had no power left and his full power wasn't stronger than Paikuhan's attack. It's really just that simple.

You do realize a weaker opponent can still be stunned without "having no power left". Look at the time it took Cell to recover from Tenshinhan's attack, and he didn't even take damage. Look at the time it took Goku to recover from Vegeta blow when he was hanging on the cliff, or when Gohan stunned Cell with two hits. It's really just that simple.

lol, I don't know why you keep bringing up such useless examples. Goku was unconscious. He couldn't move. Cell could somewhat move, Cell was conscious. That's not even normal full power reserves, that's a whole transformation.

Considering I was referring to the many times Vegeta slammed Goku into mountains of rocks in their fight during the Buu saga, "lol", your point is moot as it isn't useless. It also takes power to transform you know, so he obviously had some in reserve.

Seems you don't understand the difference between being stunned and utterly defeated.

Seems you don't understand the difference between speculation and fact.

The SSJ4 Goku example pretty much puts this perspective to rest anyway. Face it, there's no proof Paikuhan was injured in the slighted by Goku. Absolutely none. Not visually, not verbally.

Your example does nothing because this fight is a completely different context. For these reasons of course:
Pikkon verbally yelps from the punch, is unable to stop from the hit and crashes into a moon, and is visually pissed from the attack afterwards. If I get punched in the face, it's completely different from a minor injury that lasts a few seconds when compared to a long lasting one whereas it'd involve a bone breaking or something.

Kaioken is 2x. Super Kaioken is obviously Super Saiyan and Kaioken, as in a Super Saiyan using Kaioken. Apply the razor and you're done. The most likely choice is apparent. A 2 times boost along with the nifty 50x battle power increase. Arguing against it in a losing argument with absolutely no backup evidence, is doing what I said earlier...grasping frantically. Especially when you're up against the Razor.

I think you forget the Kaio-ken isn't the Super Kaio-ken. They're both two different techniques, with having no background whatsoever on it. You only assume through speculation that it's the same as the Kaio-ken. You do realize your little Latin phrase means absolutely nothing and carries you on to look like a hapless simpleton right? Especially seeing that you're stating something as fact when it's clearly speculation. Plus even if it were fact, Goku would still be weaker than post-zenkai Cell, even with that form. By your logic, Pikkon's attack is pretty much amplified because it works that way in the games.

Please reconstruct these sentences. I can't make out what exactly you mean and what you're getting at.

You only quoted part of me, are you referring to the part where you put words in my mouth about a SSJ transformation or Cell having access to his power?

Good. Now next recognize that it doesn't matter. Paikuhan proved he surpassed Cell because Cell had no energy left to fight back, despite being fully conscious and capable of some limited degree of movement.

Seeing that nothing implies he an attack that overpowered a surprised and suppressed Cell completely diminished his reserves of chi. There's a very high probability he was making a recovery as Pikkon was making his tornado, hence being able to move in a larger degree when compared to when he was first hit. The plot wouldn't allow that though of course.

Please enlighten me how I'm contradicting myself.
If Cell had accessible power left, he wouldn't need any time to recover. He'd just powerup and own Paikuhan. Releasing your power doesn't take time, and doesn't require physical effort and would help in any 'stunning' you keep mentioning as it would fill Cell's body with more Ki.

Are you even watching the same show? In Dragon Ball Z, power ups literally take forever to get over with it. There's nothing instant about them, unless you mean the SSJ transformations, which you don't seeing as that'd be irrelevant.

He didn't, therefore Paikuhan's attack is stronger.

Recovery time.

It shouldn't be too difficult to understand.

It's very difficult to understand something that contradicts the entire story. Powers up aren't instant in Dragon Ball Z.

Do you know what happened to Piccolo Daimao after he was by definition 'stunned' and temporary 'immobilized'(he got floored) by Son Goku? He didn't lose all his energy to the point he can't fly or use Bukujutsu and get tossed into some needles that's for sure. Piccolo apparently powered up(impossible to visually tell, as it was instant and required no physical effort. He wasn't even at 100%) and showed Goku who's boss. So we can DEFINITELY for sure say Piccolo's full power > Goku/ Goku's attacks >Piccolo initially

Sorry, but we're talking about Dragon Ball Z here.

How bout Cell's scenario? Oh wait. Yeah that's right, he did get tossed into some needles. I guess this wouldn't make much sense then: Cell's full power > Paikuhan's attack > Cell initially, considering it never happened.

The fact that it never happened in the first place(Paikuhan's attack annihilated and overpowered all Cell's reserves), obviously means Paikuhan's attack > Cell's Full power > Cell initially.

Seeing how I've already provided the necessary evidence above, I'll just go ahead and reiterate a more compact version. You're stating nothing more than a theory that Cell's full power was wiped out from the attack, based on speculation.

It certainly hinders it. Even Kaio-sama implies Cell's power was never really anything special, and isn't shocked that Paikuhan defeated him.

Coming from someone afraid of Freeza, that's not at all in character. Freeza's revered by him to be practically invincible, and yet he's calling the infinitely stronger Cell in other words a weakling. Yeah that's totally not a plot hole.

If Cell was defeated unfairly, it wouldn't have been impressive to Goku. Goku wouldn't have said Paikuhan defeated Cell in a flash...wow he's powerful type hype. He would have mentioned something more realistic that although Cell wasn't going all out, Paikuhan is still quite powerful.

That's about as much as speculation as me saying Goku said it because he was fascinated that Pikkon could beat him at all. Learn the difference please.

Nothing supports your first sentence here

Go learn the definition of the word "guess".

Nothing supports my 'theory' that Cell had no energy to move? Rofl, how is it a theory...when its exactly what happened? Last I checked, Cell got owned, didn't appear to have any fighting energy to fight back or even use Bukujutsu against some needles despite being completely conscious, able to breathe, able to yell, and able to flail around his hands and feet. Sooner or later, you're just going to realize what's theory(your 'guesses' and Paikuhan being immobilized and stunned) and what's fact.

Because it isn't exactly what happened, "rofl". He didn't appear? You go from smugly stating he didn't, stating it as fact, and now yo're stating it as not so sure? You pretty much just questioned the fact I called your theory a theory in single quotations, but then more or less say it's speculation through the fact you said "he doesn't appear". Sooner or later you're just going to have to realize what's a theory and what isn't, "rofl".

Oh man. Just stop. Please.

Can't take the heat? Get out of Hell.

It takes mere moments to powerup, and requires no physical effort.

Go watch Dragon Ball Z please.

Nothing implies what your saying. Nothing implies Cell was "stunned" or immobilized".

Aside from the fact he's visibly stunned by the attack in midair and sent towards the ground. If he wasn't immobilized to the extent of being unable to react in a way that'd let him counter, then he would have stopped mid flight. Seeing that if he has enough energy to move around in the tornado, then the'd have enough there. The difference is he's stunned and needs recovery time. It's likely he acquired some of it while Pikkon was taking care of the rest and forming his last attack, hence being able to move better than before.

Lets layout the grounds shall we?:

Lash's argument:
Paikuhan's attack > Cell's maximum power

-A theory being screeched out as fact.

Perfect's argument:
Cell's maximum power > Paikuhan's attack

I. Cell is relaxed and taken by surprise as we established.
II. Cell needed recovery time to get back on his feet.
III. Goku is by far weaker than post-zenkai Cell, thus making it nearly impossible for him to injure Pikkon at all.

Fixed.

By the sound of your name, and your avatar I can tell you're a bit on the biased side, and it definitely shows.

Because I'm totally making illogical theories for Cell > Buu and SSJ3 Goku.

But come on, lets come to grips with it. Paikuhan wrecked Cell. I saw it. You saw it. Everyone saw it. Cell had a chance to prove he wasn't a punk as Paikuhan dealt with Freeza and Cold, to use his super duper SSJ2 tier reserves, powerup(as he was shown completely conscious), and teach Paikuhan who's boss. He didn't. And couldn't as so much help himself against some needles. The facts are laid. The picture is clear. Paikuhan's attack > Cell's maximum power.

He quite clearly hadn't recovered while Pikkon was taking care of them, at least not fully. The pictures clear that there's no evidence to suggest Pikkon's attack would be near Cell's post-zenkai power.

[Saiga]

You don't need to be making insane theories to still be clearly showing your bias...

[Fox666]

Is it so hard to realize that the reason Goku can fight without even transforming in Super Saiyan with a guy who defeated Cell in one attack is because of artistic purposes? It has nothing to do with Paikuhan being weaker than he was first shown.

It is because for Toei animation it doesn't matter. The fans who get crazy at such choices as if they are plot-holes.

[lash]

Vegeta's armor wasn't affected because he braced himself. The blast wasn't powerful enough to break his armor because the level of chi surrounding it was far beyond.

That's not how that works in Dragonball. Clothes and armor aren't protected by the user's Ki. See Tao Pai Pai vs Son Goku.

By your logic, Chaozu's self-destruct shouldn't have destroyed Nappa's armor.

And it didn't.

Goku charged a large amount of chi into his finger, and thus was unharmed by Trunks' sword. The same principle applies here. The fact his blade is sharp has nothing to do with the fact it could penetrate his chi.

Another useless example. Ki accumulated to one finger, as opposed to Ki normally being spread out against the body. Not comparable.

Nothing states his chi in all it's entirety is over powered. People's bodies tend to have spasms when they get hit really hard briefly from the shock wave being sent through the central nervous system. He just didn't have the time he needed to recover. Gohan punches Cell twice and renders him stunned or otherwise immobile, he can't walk and stumbles to the ground, unable to stand. This didn't cost him the battle but it's a fine example of being stunned and damaged severely. Plus he was still conscious at the time too. Conscious, immobile and stunned!? Must be a plot hole right? -rolls eyes-

And another useless example. Cell took damage and was in pain. You could visibly see it. And after the first hit Gohan gave him he was stunned for less than 2 seconds, and quickly attempted to strike back. Cell saw Paikuhan, definitely felt his Ki, and still got wrecked in one blow. He had plenty of time to shake it off, especially since we see him flailing around and not holding the spot where he was struck(in other words, he was no longer in pain).

But notice something. It didn't take this Cell long to recover. Cell games Cell's power wasn't gone to the point he couldn't use Bukujutsu. He had plenty of energy left to launch an earth shattering Kamehameha. I mean Gohan is even stronger Paikuhan by your recognition. Why is Paikuhan's attacks more lethal, longer lasting, and more effective than Gohan's? If anything this hurts your argument. Especially since you directly told me you at least see the relaxed Cell that rushed at Goku as the same power as Full powerCell(pre near death powerup) that the Gohan I just mentioned stunned in two blows. This could even prove Paikuhan > Gohan. I think it's ironic you even brought this point up. It blows your entire argument into the water.

Not enough time to recover to do such a thing.

There was plenty of time.

You do realize a weaker opponent can still be stunned without "having no power left". Look at the time it took Cell to recover from Tenshinhan's attack, and he didn't even take damage.

What time? All he did was fly up after the attack was over. So flying up from a large hole is considered stunned? Oh man...

Considering I was referring to the many times Vegeta slammed Goku into mountains of rocks in their fight during the Buu saga, "lol", your point is moot as it isn't useless. It also takes power to transform you know, so he obviously had some in reserve.

Still wondering what the first part of your sentence is trying to get at, and how it makes my point moot.

As for your second sentence, I don't even know where to begin...
You think it requires power to transform, despite Goku having almost no Ki to even stand up and still first becoming a SSJ? *Sigh*

Seems you don't understand the difference between speculation and fact.

I do.
Speculation: Cell was still stunned and immobilized the entire time, despite being conscious, given ample time to comeback, and able to move to some degree.
Fact: Paikuhan wrecked Cell in one blow to the point he had no strength to fight back. He was utterly defeated.

Paikuhan verbally yelps from the punch,

So does Goku.

is unable to stop from the hit and crashes into a moon,

Baby punches Goku so hard, he gets pushed back, with Goku unable to break the acceleration of the punch until it naturally subsides.

and is visually pissed from the attack afterwards.

Goku was visually pissed during the attacks Baby used as well.

Face it. It kills your argument. Facial expressions, and 'seemingly' taking damage mean nothing to Toei. You'd need statements and damage that is apparent for the entire duration of the fight to firmly state someone felt pain or took damage. SSJ4 Goku proves it, and that's all there is to it.

I think you forget the Kaio-ken isn't the Super Kaio-ken.

Kaioken is Kaioken. Doesn't matter if its x2, x10, x20 or super.

Unless you have some backup for you claim, Occam's razor holds in higher value.

You only quoted part of me, are you referring to the part where you put words in my mouth about a SSJ transformation or Cell having access to his power?

Everything I quoted.

Seeing that nothing implies he an attack that overpowered a surprised and suppressed Cell completely diminished his reserves of chi. There's a very high probability he was making a recovery as Paikuhan was making his tornado, hence being able to move in a larger degree when compared to when he was first hit. The plot wouldn't allow that though of course.

It doesn't take long to recover. It took Cell exactly 20 seconds in anime time to recover from Gohan's initial attack, and he had plenty of energy to fight afterwords. Cell was given 54 seconds after Paikuhan struck him to recover, and had no energy left to fight. Lets not forget that Gohan is supposedly stronger than Paikuhan too.

Are you even watching the same show? In Dragon Ball Z, power ups literally take forever to get over with it.

Not all the time.

Recovery time.

Irrelevant excuse.

It's very difficult to understand something that contradicts the entire story. Powers up aren't instant in Dragon Ball Z.

There are several suggested powerups that are about as instant as you could get.

Goku vs Tullece, Gohan and Kuririn vs Freeza's men, 70% Freeza. 23rd tournament Piccolo against Kuririn; Piccolo, Gohan, Kuririn in the Saiyan arc; Goku against Ginyu and the Ginyu force, Namekian warriors against Freeza's foot men, Piccolo vs 20, Weighted Piccolo vs 2nd state Freeza, Vegeta vs Jheese, I mean...I could go on and on

Proficient folks who can control battle power also have the ability to momentarily powerup and increase their battle power instantly. This is said both in the manga and anime:

Vegeta: “Ka-Kakarot rapidly heightens his battle power for the brief instant when he attacks…That’s probably to decrease unnecessary energy consumption…It’s for an extremely brief instant, so even the scouters probably can’t pick up on it…Th-this is an outrageous battle power…H-how did he get that kind of power?...”

Cell has no excuse. And for all anyone knows, as soon as he saw Paikuhan he could have braced himself at full power. Yet still got wrecked.

Sorry, but we're talking about Dragon Ball Z here.

Terrible counter.
Doesn't matter. The laws of Dragonball carry over. There's no such differentiation in the manga anyway. And as an anime adaptation, the same Toei worked on both.

You're stating nothing more than a theory that Cell's full power was wiped out from the attack, based on speculation.

It's not speculation or a theory. It's exactly what happened.

Coming from someone afraid of Freeza, that's not at all in character.

So your only counter is "not at all in character"? You might as well go right ahead turn around and contradict your OP and say "IT WAS FILLER!" while you're at it.

Freeza's revered by him to be practically invincible, and yet he's calling the infinitely stronger Cell in other words a weakling. Yeah that's totally not a plot hole.

There's nothing for Kaio to be afraid of anymore considering Goku can beat Freeza, and Freeza is dead. He was scared for Freeza wrecking havoc in the universe if angered...including his own galaxy, not his power. Honestly, if you have no better counter, then just save both you and myself the time and energy, accept it, and move on. These long ass debates get tiresome when the losing end drags it out because they really think they have a discussion going that was decided and ended long ago.

Go learn the definition of the word "guess".

And again. "Nothing supports your first sentence". Knowing the definition of "guess" doesn't change this. Your guess is built on absolutely no support. 'Guessing' Oolong did pushups everyday at the end of Z and acquired power greater than Super Vegetto after a week has as much credibility of your 'guess'.

Because it isn't exactly what happened, "rofl".

Then what happened?

He didn't appear? You go from smugly stating he didn't, stating it as fact, and now yo're stating it as not so sure? You pretty much just questioned the fact I called your theory a theory in single quotations, but then more or less say it's speculation through the fact you said "he doesn't appear". Sooner or later you're just going to have to realize what's a theory and what isn't, "rofl".

You're not very good at this debating thing, I guess. It seems like you're now picking useless insignificant things to lament about now.
But to answer you: Nothing about my statements have changed. Cell 'doesn't appear' to have any energy left, AND he didn't have any energy left.

Can't take the heat? Get out of Hell.

It says DaizenshuuEX at the top of my screen.

Go watch Dragon Ball Z please.

Have, dozens of times.
Perhaps, it might be best for you to also take that advice.

Aside from the fact he's visibly stunned by the attack in midair and sent towards the ground. If he wasn't immobilized to the extent of being unable to react in a way that'd let him counter, then he would have stopped mid flight. Seeing that if he has enough energy to move around in the tornado, then the'd have enough there. The difference is he's stunned and needs recovery time. It's likely he acquired some of it while Paikuhan was taking care of the rest and forming his last attack, hence being able to move better than before.

You're still mistaking 'stunned' and 'immobilized' with utterly defeated.

Recovery time shouldn't take that long. Cell was no longer in physical pain by the time he was tossed in the needles. Therefore he wouldn't be stunned anymore.
And the big hole about your theory? The fact that you think he had acquired some recovery while Paikuhan was taking care of the rest. If Cell was partially, even...slightly recovered, he would have had energy to save himself or offer more resistance than a pathetic yell as he was tossed into some needles. Of course that's IF he actually had some back up energy left. Matter fact...the needles shouldn't have even damaged him if he still had Ki in reserve and was partially recovered. I guess Cell's full power really did get overwhelmed.

Lash's argument:
Paikuhan's attack > Cell's maximum power

-A theory being screeched out as fact.
Please tell me how its a theory when I've given you several examples why it's exactly the case?

Perfect's argument:
Cell's maximum power > Paikuhan's attack

I. Cell is relaxed and taken by surprise as we established. -Irrelevant. This isn't a supporting point.
II. Cell needed recovery time to get back on his feet. -He was given it.
III. Goku is by far weaker than post-zenkai Cell, thus making it nearly impossible for him to injure Paikuhan at all. -I thought you were just arguing that Super Kaioken Goku did damage Paikuhan? Anyway, Goku was stated to have gotten stronger quickly in this filler arc. So he very well could have powered up enough to injure Paikuhan. That pretty much R.I.P this point.

Suddenly its back to N/A isn't it?

Fixed.

Addressed.

Because I'm totally making illogical theories for Cell > Buu and SSJ3 Goku.

I'm glad you recognize they are theories.

He quite clearly hadn't recovered while Paikuhan was taking care of them, at least not fully. The pictures clear that there's no evidence to suggest Paikuhan's attack would be near Cell's post-zenkai power.

Considering the fact that it defeated said Cell and left him powerless to attack back or even save himself from some needles? Good one.
Funny how you think Cell directly being shown to get stomped by Paikuhan's attack isn't evidence. And then turn around and think Cell's maximum power > Paikuhan's attack, with not even the scene, supplemental material, or anything as evidence for such a claim. I'm not even trying to insult or anything...but I'm honestly questioning if you even understand what 'evidence' means.

There, he gains Freeza and his father as subordinates, but is defeated with one blow by Paikuhan

Nuff said.

[Fox666]

Sorry, but we're talking about Dragon Ball Z here.

They are only one series. In fact, the battle with Piccolo and arrival of Raditz happen in the same Tankoubon release.

Toei added an Z to the title after chapter 194, however your argument is completely irrelevant becuase the anime is merely an adaptation. That would be the same as using Mr. Popo blue skin color in Kai as evidence.

III. Goku is by far weaker than post-zenkai Cell, thus making it nearly impossible for him to injure Paikuhan at all.

Goku can injury who else the writters want him to.

[lash]

III. Goku is by far weaker than post-zenkai Cell, thus making it nearly impossible for him to injure Paikuhan at all.

Goku can injury who else the writters want him to.

I didn't write that.

[Fox666]

I know. I just keep the quote as it was.

[lash]

But that's not how it was...

[Perfect]

Oh they aren't huh? How are Goku's wristbands able to survive after a blast that destroyed thousands of people and their clothes?

And it didn't.

My bad, I meant Tenshinhan's attack.

Another useless example. Ki accumulated to one finger, as opposed to Ki normally being spread out against the body. Not comparable.

Oh so you're saying it's impossible for Vegeta or Nappa to have increased their chi around themselves, hence bracing themselves? One wouldn't need a lot of control either.

And another useless example. Cell took damage and was in pain. You could visibly see it. And after the first hit Gohan gave him he was stunned for less than 2 seconds,

Way more than two seconds, it took at least 3-4 to get through him vomiting on himself.

Cell saw Paikuhan, definitely felt his Ki, and still got wrecked in one blow.

Yes he did feel it the moment he came into sight, hence the "What?!"

He had plenty of time to shake it off, especially since we see him flailing around and not holding the spot where he was struck(in other words, he was no longer in pain).

If he's flailing around from the pain, then that'd mean he would be in pain.

But notice something. It didn't take this Cell long to recover. Cell games Cell's power wasn't gone to the point he couldn't use Bukujutsu. He had plenty of energy left to launch an earth shattering Kamehameha. I mean Gohan is even stronger Paikuhan by your recognition. Why is Paikuhan's attacks more lethal, longer lasting, and more effective than Gohan's?

Because Gohan wasn't trying in the slightest, he remarks he just wanted to make him suffer.

If anything this hurts your argument

Pretty sure it doesn't.

Especially since you directly told me you at least see the relaxed Cell that rushed at Goku as the same power as Full powerCell(pre near death powerup) that the Gohan I just mentioned stunned in two blows.

As I've stated, not once does Gohan take things remotely serious until Cell threatens to blow himself up.

This could even prove Paikuhan > Gohan. I think it's ironic you even brought this point up. It blows your entire argument into the water.

Considering we don't know what power Cell was flying at and I guessed him to be there, in either case of how strong he is, my arguments perfectly fine. Ot's ironic how you can't tell one attribute from another.

There was plenty of time.

And who're you to say? I didn't realize you were an expert in fictional time, being able to calculate the exact damage done to which a recovery's time would be needed, please, don't even.

What time? All he did was fly up after the attack was over. So flying up from a large hole is considered stunned? Oh man...

That's totally why he was pissed off and 18 got away, oh man.

Still wondering what the first part of your sentence is trying to get at, and how it makes my point moot.

Majin Vegeta's slammed Goku into plenty of rocks, stunning him. Giving him no time to recover at times.

As for your second sentence, I don't even know where to begin..

I've proved nothing I've said is useless, you're just trying to rationalize one attribute, only to fall prey to another.

You think it requires power to transform, despite Goku having almost no Ki to even stand up and still first becoming a SSJ? *Sigh*

He still had power, granted it wasn't a lot, but he had power. Also considering while he was transforming he could stand perfectly fine. He was just battle worn from Freeza kicking his ass constantly while he was forming the Genki-Dama. Look at when he tried to train when he leaves the hospital, he falls over and can't move, but still has power. Plus SSJ3 actually does take a good amount of power to use, especially in the mortal realm.

Speculation: Cell was still stunned and immobilized the entire time, despite being conscious, given ample time to comeback, and able to move to some degree.
Fact: Paikuhan wrecked Cell in one blow to the point he had no strength to fight back. He was utterly defeated.

You've confused them entirely. Even if you found Cell to be defeated, then he'd have to be immobilized to a large degree. He was stunned, which is implied from the attack and had minimal recovery time. It's not fact he beat him in one blow, it was three. Having no strength to fight back is speculation, so apparently you don't know what it means. He was defeated, at the end when he fell into the needles.

So does Goku.

That's entirely irrelevant, because Goku's clearly hurt from such. You've just proven me here.

Baby punches Goku so hard, he gets pushed back, with Goku unable to break the acceleration of the punch until it naturally subsides.

The difference here is Pikkon actually takes damage.

Face it. It kills your argument. Facial expressions, and 'seemingly' taking damage mean nothing to Toei. You'd need statements and damage that is apparent for the entire duration of the fight to firmly state someone felt pain or took damage. SSJ4 Goku proves it, and that's all there is to it.

SSJ4 Goku isn't Pikkon as I recall, different scenario. You're telling me, "SSJ4 Goku didn't take damage, therefore Pikkon didn't". That's the stupidest thing I've heard. Not to mention that if we go by GT, technically Cell and Freeza in Hell are invincible and can't die or be defeated.

Kaioken is Kaioken. Doesn't matter if its x2, x10, x20 or super.

Unless you have some backup for you claim, Occam's razor holds in higher value.

Actually it does matter, because the boost isn't specified. It could be 1.5 for all we know given his body wouldn't stand a x2 or higher. Nothing suggests what you're saying other than, "It's the Kaio-ken", which is speculation seeing that it's a different technique.

Everything I quoted.

Why leave out the beginning if you're leaving the end in, they go with each other. That makes zero sense.

It doesn't take long to recover.

Subjective to context.

It took Cell exactly 20 seconds in anime time to recover from Gohan's initial attack, and he had plenty of energy to fight afterwords.

Refer to Gohan not taking anything serious, aside from making him suffer.

Cell was given 54 seconds after Paikuhan struck him to recover, and had no energy left to fight.

Subjective, no one can say for sure how much recovery time Cell needed.

Not all the time.

90% of the time, and even saying not all the time contradicts what you said. Seeing you said they're "instant", and they're rarely ever.

Irrelevant excuse.

^Above user relies on irrelevant theories. Recovery time is everything here, especially judging by Cell's movements in the tornado.

Goku vs Tullece

They never take forever in the movies because they aren't trying to fill an episode.

Gohan and Kuririn vs Freeza's men

That was far from instant.

Cell has no excuse. And for all anyone knows, as soon as he saw Paikuhan he could have braced himself at full power. Yet still got wrecked.

There's no indication of him bracing himself, that's speculation. If you look at any power up around the Cell saga, revolving around Goku or Cell, the time taken lasted quite some time. There's also dozens of others littered throughout the anime. Nappa vs Piccolo and co, Vegeta vs Goku, Vegeta vs Dodoria, Vegeta vs Freeza, Freeza vs Goku, Cell vs Piccolo, Piccolo vs Cell, Piccolo vs 17, Cell vs Piccolo and 17, Vegeta vs Cell, Cell vs Vegeta, Trunks vs Cell, Goku vs Cell, Cell vs Gohan, etc.

Terrible counter.

See above.

Doesn't matter. The laws of Dragonball carry over.

Different writers, different animators and different pacing, no.

There's no such differentiation in the manga anyway.

As you'd put it, "useless example". This is filler, thus we're going by the anime.

the same Toei worked on both.

See above.

It's not speculation or a theory. It's exactly what happened.

The theory is that when someone's hit so hard that they're defeated, they lose their energy in reserve completely, as opposed to just being defeated and unable to access it. That's a theory.

So your only counter is "not at all in character"? You might as well go right ahead turn around and contradict your OP and say "IT WAS FILLER!" while you're at it.

I'm not saying anything about filler, I'm saying it's a plot hole in itself.

There's nothing for Kaio to be afraid of anymore

Doesn't matter, if he was afraid of Freeza, that'd mean there was no one around at the time to beat Freeza that he knew of. Plus if he was so afraid of Freeza for all those years and just calls Cell a nobody a few years later, well that's one hell of a plot hole if you ask me.

He was scared for Freeza wrecking havoc in the universe if angered...including his own galaxy, not his power.

If it had nothing to do with his power, then why would be afraid of no one being able to control his anger? -facepalm-

Honestly, if you have no better counter, then just save both you and myself the time and energy, accept it, and move on. These long ass debates get tiresome when the losing end drags it out because they really think they have a discussion going that was decided and ended long ago.

Yes it is tiresome, when the losing end, you, drags it on, and continues to lose. Thing is I'm not giving up annnnny time soon.

And again. "Nothing supports your first sentence".

Of course nothing does, I'm aware. Not to mention it's irrelevant where I place him so long as it's below post-zenkai.

Knowing the definition of "guess" doesn't change this. Your guess is built on absolutely no support.

It does when you read the above.

'Guessing' Oolong did pushups everyday at the end of Z and acquired power greater than Super Vegetto after a week has as much credibility of your 'guess'.

Aside from the fact it's clear he's below post-zenkai, where below I guess him to be doesn't matter.

Then what happened?

Cell was taken by surprise at a relaxed battle power and stunned. He's then sent to the lake below, immobilized in the air. We see vague hints that Cell was recovering given how well he moves in the tornado. I like to believe all the comments about Pikkon's speed add to all this. I'm fine with Pikkon's attack > Cell's level of power when charging Goku. However, I don't believe for a second just because someone loses, that the attack automatically had to overcome whatever amount of chi they had in reserve.

It says DaizenshuuEX at the top of my screen.

Reference towards the debate.

Have, dozens of times.
Perhaps, it might be best for you to also take that advice.

I do every day, well at least one incarnation of it.

You're still mistaking 'stunned' and 'immobilized' with utterly defeated.

Even if Cell was "utterly defeated", he would have still been immobilized to a large degree and stunned in the beginning.

Recovery time shouldn't take that long.

Subjective.

Cell was no longer in physical pain by the time he was tossed in the needles.

Who's to say he wasn't mentally?

Therefore he wouldn't be stunned anymore.

See above.

And the big hole about your theory? The fact that you think he had acquired some recovery while Paikuhan was taking care of the rest.

There's nothing that contradicts it.

If Cell was partially, even...slightly recovered, he would have had energy to save himself or offer more resistance than a pathetic yell as he was tossed into some needles.

Compare his ability to move to when he was first attacked. There's a clear implication of recovery time to a certain degree, given him slightly more time and I'd wager him to jump out of that lake and bash Pikkon into pieces.

Of course that's IF he actually had some back up energy left. Matter fact...the needles shouldn't have even damaged him if he still had Ki in reserve and was partially recovered. I guess Cell's full power really did get overwhelmed.

The needles even piercing Cell seems like a very large stretch in itself. It's just for comic relief purposes, really. Even if we take that element aside, Cell shows that he's fully awake and able to react by this point. If he was utterly defeated, this wouldn't be so. Not to mention it doesn't even show what happens afterwards, but I think we can safely assume Goku and Pikkon had to help with locking them up. Even if they were defeated 100%. In fact, they're all awake and showing no signs of lasting damage besides the holes in them when they get locked in. That would mean when they got put into the cell that they were already awake, meaning they should have been able to get away. In fact they should be able to get away at any point in the series. Is there some magical barrier preventing them from breaking the bars or Cell teleporting out? It's all for comic relief purpose, otherwise it's just one big plot hole.

Perfect's argument:
Cell's maximum power > Paikuhan's attack

I. Cell is relaxed and taken by surprise as we established. -Irrelevant. This isn't a supporting point. -
You asked for my argument, and it's a supporting point in my argument. ^irrelevant comment.
II. Cell needed recovery time to get back on his feet. -He was given it.
Subjective.
III. Goku is by far weaker than post-zenkai Cell, thus making it nearly impossible for him to injure Paikuhan at all. -I thought you were just arguing that Super Kaioken Goku did damage Paikuhan? Anyway, Goku was stated to have gotten stronger quickly in this filler arc. So he very well could have powered up enough to injure Paikuhan. That pretty much R.I.P this point.
Not once are there gains that significant without a special transformation or fusion. Goku did get a little stronger from his fights and minuscule amount of training sure, but to topple his already stronger son? No, that'd even create plot holes in the Buu saga, there's nothing to suggest he's at SSJ2. The only way this would work would be if this we're an entirely seperate universe from the main story in the anime, which it isn't. Not to mention nothings being "ripped" to shreds here, it's just the typical, arrogant, erroneous "I'm right your wrong" bullshit.

Suddenly its back to N/A isn't it?
Nope but yours is.

Fixed.

I'm glad you recognize they are theories.

They'd have to be theories, since there's not a single strand of evidence for Cell to be around Buu or Goku at that point in time.

Considering the fact that it defeated said Cell and left him powerless to attack back or even save himself from some needles? Good one.

See above argument.

Funny how you think Cell directly being shown to get stomped by Paikuhan's attack isn't evidence.

Because nothing implies one's reserves of chi are to be vanquished upon an attack that stuns or incapacitates them. Even if we say Cell was defeated at that point, which I don't mind at all, there's still nothing to say his chi reserves were depleted for the reasons in the argument above.

Nuff said.

It's three blows. Mind you that the Daizenshuu have been wrong on occasion, such as saying Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabra and then taking it back later. Their time lines inconsistent, etc. It's clearly 3 blows, or from what you're saying at least, 2. Therefore rendering the Daizenshuu incorrect in this context.

You don't need to be making insane theories to still be clearly showing your bias...

There's nothing insane about my 'theory'. You went from calling it an interpretation to theory now? Again, there's nothing being a theory about Cell being caught off guard and at a relaxed level. The argument here is actually about if Cell had recovery time, and there's nothing insane about that so I don't even know why you'd insinuate that. Hop off the bandwagon and actually read what I've been saying.

They are only one series. In fact, the battle with Piccolo and arrival of Raditz happen in the same Tankoubon release.

We're talking about filler and therefore only the anime. The Z anime has an entirely different tone, at least from the middle of the Saiyan arc onward, the writing for filler becomes noticeably different from the DB anime's, the studio rotation clearly changes, etc.

Goku can injury who else the writters want him to.

Sure, doesn't mean they don't create plot holes along the way.

[Fox666]

Subjective.

So does your point. In fact yours is even more subjective than his, since there is no mention of Cell being paralyzed through the whole sequence of Paikuhan attacks.

Not to mention nothings being "ripped" to shreds here, it's just the typical, arrogant, erroneous "I'm right your wrong" bullshit.

You do exactly that. I lost my count of how many times you yelled "I am right" or "I destroyed your argument" in this subject.

We're talking about filler and therefore only the anime. The Z anime has an entirely different tone, at least from the middle of the Saiyan arc onward, the writing for filler becomes noticeably different from the DB anime's, the studio rotation clearly changes, etc.

They change from one episode to another, not just arcs.

Besides, why would there be different set of rules from one story arc to another, and not from the manga to the anime? In the manga, Goku shouldn't be able to fight a guy who defeated Cell in an instant. In the anime he does, in fact he don't even need to transform in Super Saiyan for that.

Sure, doesn't mean they don't create plot holes along the way.

They do.

Which of course you claim there is evidence that Paikuhan defeated Cell because of "surprise attack" or "not using all power" which are just ways to avoid said plot-holes. However that's not different of saying that there is a second Moon, small than the other and closer to Earth, to explain how Goku brought the boss rabbit gang and did not even transformed in Oozaru in the process.

[Perfect]

So does your point. In fact yours is even more subjective than his, since there is no mention of Cell being paralyzed through the whole sequence of Paikuhan attacks.

Regardless of the whole aspect of one apparently losing their chi when being "defeated", if Cell wasn't paralyzed he would have moved. That can be also be immobilized in the context of being "utterly defeated" or stunned. Which is my case, I don't outright say mine isn't subjective in the sense that he does need recovery time and whatnot, but one losing their chi, all of it, even if they weren't using it, is by far more subjective.

You do exactly that. I lost my count of how many times you yelled "I am right!!" or "I destroyed your argument" in this subject.

I'm just doing exactly what he's doing.

They change from one episode to another, not just arcs.

Yes I'm quite aware of that, however by the middle of the Saiyan arc it becomes incredibly noticeable when compared to DB.

Besides, why would there be different set of rules from one story arc to another, and not from the manga to the anime? In the manga, Goku shouldn't be able to fight a guy who defeated Cell in an instant. In the anime he does, in fact he don't even need to transform in Super Saiyan for that.

Different writers of course. They make the rules whatever they want to be in whatever episode, the rules aren't consistent in filler, you know that as well as I do. That isn't Toei's fault either, it's just they have so many different writers.

Which of course you claim there is evidence that "surprise attack" or any other way to avoid said plot-holes.

That's fairly irrelevant towards the argument here, as it's about Pikkon's attack being able to overpower Cell's energy in reserve.

However that's not different of saying that there is a second Moon, small than the other and closer to Earth, to explain how Goku brought the boss rabbit gang and did not even transformed in Oozaru in the process.

Uh, the difference is there's probability that Cell needed recovery time. The whole moon bit isn't a plot hole, it's just a gag. How would Goku survive in space, how would the Rabbit gang? It's just a gag, not meant to be taken seriously. By your book, Dr. Slump would be one big plot hole.

[Saiga]

Honestly, if you have no better counter, then just save both you and myself the time and energy, accept it, and move on. These long ass debates get tiresome when the losing end drags it out because they really think they have a discussion going that was decided and ended long ago.

Yes it is tiresome, when the losing end, you, drags it on, and continues to lose. Thing is I'm not giving up annnnny time soon.

He isn't the losing end. No one is "losing" here. Being stubborn doesn't make you win.

You don't need to be making insane theories to still be clearly showing your bias...

There's nothing insane about my 'theory'. You went from calling it an interpretation to theory now? Again, there's nothing being a theory about Cell being caught off guard and at a relaxed level. The argument here is actually about if Cell had recovery time, and there's nothing insane about that so I don't even know why you'd insinuate that. Hop off the bandwagon and actually read what I've been saying.

You misunderstand. Lash called you out on being biased, you claimed you weren't biased because you didn't make theories about Cell being above Boo and SS3 Goku, and I said you don't need to be making insane theories (referring to that comment you made to Lash) to show your bias, as you are clearly showing your bias in your arguments to defend Cell.

I'm just doing exactly what he's doing.

So why are you trying to call him out on it if you admit to doing the same thing? That's hypocritical.

[Perfect]

He isn't the losing end. No one is "losing" here. Being stubborn doesn't make you win.

I'm aware, I'm just doing what he's doing.

You misunderstand. Lash called you out on being biased, you claimed you weren't biased because you didn't make theories about Cell being above Boo and SS3 Goku, and I said you don't need to be making insane theories (referring to that comment you made to Lash) to show your bias, as you are clearly showing your bias in your arguments to defend Cell.

Oh I see, I thought you were calling it an insane theory. Of course I'm biased towards Cell (Just not enough to be irrational), however I find it favorable that he wasn't at full power and nor did Pikkon's attack overpower his full power that he wasn't using. I mean if Pikkon outright fought Cell without intercepting Goku, then I probably wouldn't even be arguing. I find it perfectly plausible that Cell didn't receive enough recovery time from the hits, I think he was mentally distorted and physically injured, rendering him unable to counter. Thus this allowed Pikkon to defeat him, that's how I view it.

Aside form what I view as fact, being the whole surprise thing, that's pretty much irrelevant towards the debate, but still about of my argument nonetheless. I view everything afterwards as subjective, though Lash seems to disagree on this, hence this massive argument.

[Saiga]

So do you think it's reasonable for someone to believe that Paikuhan is stronger than Cell?

[Perfect]

So do you think it's reasonable for someone to believe that Paikuhan is stronger than Cell?

Based on Lash's analysis in his theory it's reasonable to believe, but it's also reasonable to believe based on my mixture of evidence (Which he has a severe problem with coping with). However I don't find it reasonable at all based on anything Fox's said.

[Fox666]

"Reasonable" means something agreeable to reason. However for that you are assuming the filler episode is rational or logical. And you must remember this is not just fiction, but is written by an underpaid team which priority is not the quality of the work.