Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

[Perfect]

Reasonable within the standards of the filler episode. I didn't feel the need to point that out as I thought it'd be obvious.

[Fox666]

I think any of your arguments is way beyond the standards of the fillers.

Of course I'm biased towards Cell (Just not enough to be irrational),

By definition isn't bias irrational?

Regardless of the whole aspect of one apparently losing their chi when being "defeated", if Cell wasn't paralyzed he would have moved. That can be also be immobilized in the context of being "utterly defeated" or stunned. Which is my case, I don't outright say mine isn't subjective in the sense that he does need recovery time and whatnot, but one losing their chi, all of it, even if they weren't using it, is by far more subjective.

I will go with the animation being supposed to be look cool and that is it. Nobody should over-analyze about how the principles of battles apply and blah blah blah.

I'm just doing exactly what he's doing.

You did it while arguing with me, and I think it was before he joined the discussion.

Different writers of course. They make the rules whatever they want to be in whatever episode, the rules aren't consistent in filler, you know that as well as I do. That isn't Toei's fault either, it's just they have so many different writers.

It's their fault for being cheap. Besides they shouldn't make fillers to begin with, but they would get less money if they did...

Uh, the difference is there's probability that Cell needed recovery time. The whole moon bit isn't a plot hole, it's just a gag. How would Goku survive in space, how would the Rabbit gang? It's just a gag, not meant to be taken seriously. By your book, Dr. Slump would be one big plot hole.

I don't think Dr. Slump need any explanation.

Neither I think Paikuhan fighting Cell or Goku need. It's supposed to provide a little of fun while they don't catch with the manga.

[Perfect]

I think any of your arguments is way beyond the standards of the fillers.

I don't.

By definition isn't bias irrational?

Depends on the context. And in this context no because I acknowledge the possibilities.

I will go with the animation being supposed to be look cool and that is it. Nobody should over-analyze about how the principles of battles apply and blah blah blah.

No one should ever? That's your opinion, and so is "it's supposed to look cool".

You did it while arguing with me, and I think it was before he joined the discussion.

Because you were wrong, and still are. The difference here is he did it to me, so I did it to him. I did it to you because you are wrong. There's a damned difference between perception and the actual emotion the character's feeling, it's really not that hard to understand.

Notice how I've said it's a fact Cell was surprised and not initially at full power, but called his idea a theory? And went on to say how the evidence I provided, while subjective, is just as plausible?

Let me explain why and where you're wrong, again. Cell had no reason to be powered, had no signs of being powered prior or during and is visually surprised, hence the emotion he's feeling. Your whole argument is you see it as funny, that's fine, that you find it funny that is. You can't argue and expect to be right when what you find and the emotion a fictional character is feeling, is completely separate.

Example:
Person A is crying because he's sad. Person B finds that hilarious.

You're person b, finding Cell's shock to be funny. Cell on the other hand is surprised and caught off guard. That's not disputed in the current argument at hand either. Cell has a reason to be surprised too, he's expecting to fight Goku, and its intercepted by something of a meteorite. Goku is also surprised by this, in which it's just obvious, he keeps the same face the entire time, gaping.

It's their fault for being cheap. Besides they shouldn't make fillers to begin with, but they would get less money if they did...

They shouldn't, but they'd get less money? You're more or less saying they should, because it'd make them more money.

I don't think Dr. Slump need any explanation.

Neither I think Paikuhan fighting Cell or Goku need. It's supposed to provide a little of fun while they don't catch with the manga.

Again, unlike Dr. Slump, none of this filler is a gag.

Edit: How are you getting these weird quoting errors, for the past 2 pages now?

[Fox666]

Depends on the context. And in this context no because I acknowledge the possibilities.

Which context an unfair judgement is not irrational?

Because you were wrong, and still are. The difference here is he did it to me, so I did it to him. I did it to you because you are wrong. There's a damned difference between perception and the actual emotion the character's feeling, it's really not that hard to understand. (...)

No matter how many times you say you are right, it won't make you right. You are just being arrogant. In fact, people who feel the need to say they are right probably are not.

Again, unlike Dr. Slump, none of this filler is a gag.

So? You are telling me I don't have the right to make hocus pocus explanations for Dr. Slump while you can for Dragon Ball fillers?

[Perfect]

Which context an unfair judgement is not irrational?

My judgement isn't unfair, the bias I have is what drew me to the argument. The bias is why I'm arguing, not what I'm arguing. Meaning I acknowledge the other subjective nature of considerable theories, but my bias is what makes me acknowledge the plausibility and subjective nature for Cell's favor.

No matter how many times you say you are right, it won't make you right. You are just being arrogant. In fact, people who feel the need to say they are right probably are not.

Considering I've just explained why I'm right in "our" argument. Not to say I'm always right, but I'm about as confident as Freeza was against Vegeta.

So? You are telling me I don't have the right to make hocus pocus explanations for Dr. Slump than you can for Dragon Ball fillers?

You have the right of course, but that doesn't make Dr. Slump one big plot hole.

[Fox666]

My judgement isn't unfair

So you are not being biased...?

the bias I have is what drew me to the argument. The bias is why I'm arguing, not what I'm arguing. Meaning I acknowledge the other subjective nature of considerable theories, but my bias is what makes me acknowledge the plausibility and subjective nature for Cell's favor.

I tought bias is prejudgement, and the opposite of being biased is being impartial.

Example of impartial (person A) and biased (person B) argumentation: Which of the following numbers is greater? 1 and 1. Person A says they are equals, person B likes blue and says the second number is greater.

Considering I've just explained why I'm right in "our" argument. Not to say I'm always right, but I'm about as confident as Freeza was against Vegeta.

Repeating yourself won't make you right. Confidence don't make someone right, I prefer to go by skepticism.

You have the right of course, but that doesn't make Dr. Slump one big plot hole.

And the filler aren't huge plot holes? So you are saying you yourself shouldn't argue over it? I don't get your point.

[Perfect]

Erm, no that's not at all what I'm being in this context. Unfair is usually associated with being bias, however I'm just showing a favor. In which I explained fairly in depth:

My judgement isn't unfair, the bias I have is what drew me to the argument. The bias is why I'm arguing, not what I'm arguing. Meaning I acknowledge the other subjective nature of considerable theories, but my bias is what makes me acknowledge the plausibility and subjective nature for Cell's favor.

Repeating yourself won't make you right. Confidence don't make someone right, I prefer to go by skepticism.

Sigh, I've explained time and time and time again, the difference between perspective, perception and view as opposed to the emotion the character is feeling.

And the filler aren't huge plot holes? So you are saying you yourself shouldn't argue over it? I don't get your point.

Uhm what? How did you even conclude that? I said just because Dr. Slump doesn't make sense doesn't make it a plot hole, thus doesn't make Goku going to the moon one either. It's a gag. Doesn't mean you can't make theories for it, but they're intended as gags. Unlike the filler, which is supposed to be taken seriously, but fans rarely ever do, however again, that doesn't mean we can't for the sake of debate.

[Fox666]

My judgement isn't unfair, the bias I have is what drew me to the argument. The bias is why I'm arguing, not what I'm arguing. Meaning I acknowledge the other subjective nature of considerable theories, but my bias is what makes me acknowledge the plausibility and subjective nature for Cell's favor.

So does Person B...?

Sigh, I've explained time and time and time again, the difference between perspective, perception and view as opposed to the emotion the character is feeling.

The character in question don't exist. Emotions can't be mensured. And facial expressions are extremely subjective. Which of course points to the irony of you being confident about a subject like this.

And for me Cell and Freeza look like clowns in that episode.

but they're intended as gags. Unlike the filler, which is supposed to be taken seriously

Or not?

[Perfect]

I. Person B doesn't acknowledge the theoretical possibilities while retaining to his own ideals.

II. He doesn't have to not exist, it's as clear as day he's experiencing shock. To be surprised is to feel something unexpected, Pikkon as unexpected, Cell's face clearly shows this. They look like clowns to you because that's your perception, not what they are. I've explained this many times now.

III. Or yes? I doubt Toei was thinking, "Let's make this seem serious, but really be a gag!"

[Fox666]

I. Person B doesn't acknowledge the theoretical possibilities while retaining to his own ideals.

He does acknowledge all the "possibilities".

II. He doesn't have to not exist

No, but it is ludicrous for you bragging about right or wrong on a subject like that.

it's as clear as day (...) Cell's face clearly shows this. (...) not what they are. I've explained this many times now.

No matter how many times you say that, that's still YOUR perception.

They look like clowns to you because that's your perception

They still look like clowns to me.

III. Or yes? I doubt Toei was thinking, "Let's make this seem serious, but really be a gag!"

Right, being pierced by a enormous spike in your chest and putting giant band-aid on it is not a gag...

[Perfect]

I. Then he wouldn't be saying what he's saying just because he likes him. He'd be coming up with reasonable subjective and factual evidence as to why.

II. It's not subjective, look, my point is backed up completely here:


III. I'm not perceiving anything, other than the fact that you know, that's the emotion Cell's feeling. Might as well say Vegeta was happy he was getting his face beaten in from Freeza and they were tears of joy.

IV. It's comic relief, or a gag within the filler segment, the entire filler scene or episode is not to be treated that way from Toei's perspective.

Edit:

I have a feeling we're just gonna go in circles; so if you wanna agree to disagree that's fine, if you wanna keep arguing fine too, but I have a feeling it's just gonna be the same crap reiterated from both sides.

[Fox666]

He'd be coming up with reasonable subjective and factual evidence as to why.

By definition a fact is not subjective.

And if he was coming only with reasonable evidence he would not be biased.

II. It's not subjective, look, my point is backed up completely here:
(image)

What can be more subjective than analysis of a picture?

III. I'm not perceiving anything

Except pratically everything you said regarding this subject? I am not the first to point that.

that's the emotion Cell's feeling.

I can see him being more intrigued than shocked.

Might as well say Vegeta was happy he was getting his face beaten in from Freeza and they were tears of joy.

Since it is a fictional work, it could be. Toriyama could just ret-con it in the next chapter if he wanted to. But I don't think you can compare both cases.

IV. It's comic relief, or a gag within the filler segment, the entire filler scene or episode is not to be treated that way from Toei's perspective.

From "Toei's perspective" was it meant for Cell to be taken by surprise, was he meant to be using only a fraction of his power, was the Ginyu Tokusentai supposed to have gotten stronger? I don't think so.

[Perfect]

I. I used the conjunction "and" for a reason.

II. I stated my reasoning for arguing on Cell's side is the only bias I have, not the actual arguments. You see the bias only comes for the fact I've chosen to represent Cell, nothing more.

III. You confuse perception of a photo with intended emotion that's as clear day. He's surprised because something unexpected came up, his face shows that and so does his volubility.

IV. Refer to above.

V. That wouldn't match his verbal expression, and hardly even goes with what's visually portrayed. It seems to me like you know you're wrong and you're just making excuses. First humorous now intrigued? please.

VI. No, there's absolutely no indication of Vegeta crying tears of joy. But Toriyama didn't did he? Just like Toei didn't with Cell.

VII. Perhaps not with the Ginyu's but in Cell's case most definitely as I've already stated a thousand times. None of this is going anywhere; with that said I'll be back to reconvene in the afternoon.

[Deep Thought]

The only problem that I have with Paikuhan being stronger than Super Perfect Cell is that it means that Yamcha is at least on par with Super Perfect Cell due to the fact that Yamcha beat Olibu so soundly. Based on the fight between Olibu and Paikuhan, there could be an argument made that Paikuhan wasn't going all out, but I can't concede to the point that he was somehow holding back massive reservoirs of power and using 0.5% of his power or something, mostly because it completely contradicts what little was already established about the character. Paikuhan is a super no-nonsense take care of business kind of guy, that much we know from how he took out Cell. Why would he suddenly play around in a fight as if he was Vegeta or something?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP-6DWPp0B8

It's seems much more obvious that Paikuhan was taking the fight at least somewhat seriously. Don't even attempt to make the argument that Olibu was pretending to get his ass kicked by Yamcha (aka, a complete stranger to Olibu) for no particular reason, because that's seriously one of the weakest arguments I've ever seen when discussing Dragon Ball.

[Fox666]

It seems to me like you know you're wrong and you're just making excuses.

I told you, saying I am wrong won't make it come true. I find it funny how you think Cell facial expression is such an important matter to be so arrogant.

[Perfect]

He verbally and visually expresses the emotion of shock. It's as clear as day, and no matter how much you deny it, it doesn't make it any less true. I feel like I'm talking to a wall here. What you see is the perception of how you view the characters' expressions in the subjective context of how you find their faces to look to you (Thus finding them to look like clowns), not what they're feeling, there's a huge difference.

[Fox666]

It's as clear as day

It's subjective, because it is clear for you it doesn't mean it is for others.

and no matter how much you deny it, it doesn't make it any less true.

I can question your interpretation if I wish, I won't stop just because you told me not to.

I feel like I'm talking to a wall here.

Merely because I don't agree with your interpretation.

not what they're feeling

There is no way to the tell the true feeling of a real life person, much less an fictional character.

[Perfect]

I. It should be clear as I've explained why it's clear.

II. That's not an interpretation so much as it is you know, that's what's there. Yours is for sure though, seeing it's a perspective based on how you view them to look to you, not how they're feeling. You've questioned the same thing at least 10 times and I've answered it at least that many times.

III. Refer to II.

IV. Yes there is. When something fits a definition it's like a square fitting in a square hole. http://www.thejobpyramid.com/wp-content ... ck_box.jpg the square (The expression) fits into the square hole (The definition).

I drew an example to try and get my point across with a bit more clarity.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2504/exampleyi.png

That pretty much sums it all up perfectly.

[DBZ Mick]

I really don't understand how anyone can find Cell's expression in that shot humourous? Even Freeza and his father's faces are ones of shock.


You may find it funny, but that's clearly not what TOEI was getting at. Especially because once Cell sees Paikuhan he says "What?!"

[Fox666]

I. It should be clear as I've explained why it's clear.

You can even write a book about it, but it won't make it less subjective.

II. That's not an interpretation so much as it is you know, that's what's there.

The fun thing about interpretation is that what is there for you is not for other people.

Yours is for sure though, seeing it's a perspective based on how you view them to look to you, not how they're feeling.

How they are feeling for you. Someone else may say that you are not seeing how things really are (for them).

You've questioned the same thing at least 10 times and I've answered it at least that many times.

Countering my argument several times won't have any effect.

IV. Yes there is. When something fits a definition it's like a square fitting in a square hole. http://www.thejobpyramid.com/wp-content ... ck_box.jpg the square (The expression) fits into the square hole (The definition).

I drew an example to try and get my point across with a bit more clarity.

Squares are mensurable, emotions are not.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2504/exampleyi.png

That pretty much sums it all up perfectly.

Makin a drawing don't add anything to your argument, especially since you are not adding any new concent, only repeating yourself over and over again.

I really don't understand how anyone can find Cell's expression in that shot humourous? Even Freeza and his father's faces are ones of shock.


You may find it funny, but that's clearly not what TOEI was getting at. Especially because once Cell sees Paikuhan he says "What?!"

You may be right. It may be the art style.