So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

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So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by Cipher » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:55 pm

Is it okay to talk about this now? Because it really was. And as a result of developing itself throughout the '90s, certain elements of the franchise still are. A post I made in a recent thread made me decide to finally organize my thoughts on this. Hopefully this reads at least slightly coherently, but at any rate, here it is for your consideration:

Ah, Daizex. Probably the only Dragon Ball board on the Internet where "hardcore"' is a dirty word, power-level discussions get pushed to side-threads in subforums and moderators correct for grammar (which I can't express my gratitude for enough). If you're not owning up to the fact that Dragon Ball is a happy-go-lucky kids' series, you're in the wrong place.

"Look at the goofy crossovers with One Piece! Look at the 2008 Jump Special! Toriyama can't remember things! It's silly, silly, silly and Toriyama can't even remember anything!"

"'Rock the Dragon'? Misinterpretive blasphemy. The Toonami aesthetic? Misinterpretive nostalgic, awesome blasphemy. Serious? Never. Power levels? Their failure was a major theme of the Namek arc and they were never brought up again."

Spend a week or two on Daizex, and you'll walk away with the impression that Dragon Ball, apparently, was never hardcore in Japan.

And as far as the manga goes, that seems fairly accurate. It's very tongue-in-cheek. Toriyama's second editor (from what I understand) pushed him in a more action-oriented direction in the Saiyan, Namek and Android arcs, but even then we had humorous villains, the strongest characters taking the smallest forms, and a general disregard for logic when it got in the way of having fun. The final 26 volumes may be a little more serious, but they're very much give the impression of a light-hearted manga artist doing his best to approximate what would seem "cool" and "badass" to Japanese children and tweens at the behest of his editors. If not always completely silly, it's always very fun.

But the franchise as a whole? Whoo-boy. Japan was rocking the dragon before other dimensions were even a twinkle in Funimation's eye (huh?). Without further discussion, let's just set the tone for Dragon Ball marketing in '91-'95 or so with these:

The DBZ "Virtual Triangle" Music Hits CD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULgJ_YAhYAM

DBZ "Hyper Anime" Special: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXSkOle8IXQ (WARNING: Gratuitous '90s)

See also: Insert songs "Battle Point Unlimited" and "Solid State Scouter," any other early '90s CDs, any early '90s promotional art (poster art, wall scrolls, etc.), any '90s video-game intro or commercial, any '90s Carddass set (which can all be found conveniently here.)

See also, any of the Z movies, which suddenly concern themselves with over-muscled villains unlike anything seen in the series proper. Oh, Toei, you have to put those kids in the theaters over break, right? (See observations about the Z movie villains here.)

Maybe it's not immediately recognizable as over-serious "hardcore marketing," being a very '90s, occasionally very neon (dat Carddass), very stylish, Japanese version. But it is. For a frame of reference, if it involves mentions of the word "battle power," "virtual," uses any gratuitous CGI, involves dramatic poses and muted colors, or conversely, really garish neon colors, or any combination of these elements, it's being marketed deadly seriously.

Toei's Dragon Ball franchise is guilty of all of that in spades, and while it began as an attempt to stay relevant in the '90s, elements of it have remained fixed in the franchise worldwide.

Why? What was happening? Well, in 1990, something very interesting began to happen. The '90s started. And with them, pop media the world over (but particularly in Japan and America, with their increasing back-and-forth) decided it had to become hardcore. Like, really hardcore.

For a frame of reference, the same time U.S. Transformers comics (Hey, look, a joint Japanese-American franchise! How convenient!) were producing hyper-violent stories about big guns and vaguely defined green-gray mech fluid:
Image
Image
These are NOT your father's Dragon Balls.
But seriously, these are really good. Don't judge them.
The franchise in Japan was seeing a series of manga and magazine story pages by Hidetsugu Yoshioka directly modeled upon their American counterparts: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers:_G- ... ry_page%29

Also at the same time, Transformers commercials across the world looked like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23EvUt5DXZk

Neon everywhere? Gratuitous CGI animation? HARDCORENESS? Holy shit, it's the DBZ Hyper Anime all over again. Cue synthesized bass and dancing Cell.

It's tangential, but it's there to give you an impression of what other Japanese(-ish) productions clearly trying to make themselves more serious at the time were doing, and just how much the Dragon Ball franchise at the time fit in. And of course, at the same time, you also had Godzilla making his kind-of serious, but not-really-that-serious-it-turns-out return in the Heisei series. It was all over.

And before you think, "Well, okay. But Dragon Ball was just being marketed as a serious shonen property for a while. That's pretty timeless," it's not. Dragon Ball was as '90s hardcore as '90s hardcore got. Compare it to the marketing One Piece gets now, which (I don't follow it, but I'm tangentially aware) is still a lot more happy-go-lucky in its films and promotional material. Even Naruto, which, the last time I experienced it back in seventh grade, is a far more self-important series than Dragon Ball ever was, promotes itself a bit more broadly. (And aren't its films a little sillier as well? Am I making that up?)

And finally, let's touch on the much-magligned power levels. I don't want to aggregate all previous discussion on it, but they were clearly less an effort to provide a message on over-reliance upon technology, and more a calculated attempt to appeal to children in that serious shonen vein. It's been discussed here multiple times before. Japanese children, more so than in the West, it seems, dig numerical power rankings, card games, etc. To that extent, they continued to appear in promotional materials (we had some movie power-level magazine scans floating around here recently, didn't we?) and Carddass sets years and years later. The "Kili" in the Boo arc seem less a story-telling necessity and more an attempt to promote a more useable scale as well. I have no doubt someone was giving Toriyama input from a marketing perspective.

So, yeah. It's all a very Saturday-morning, Japanese, '90s sort of "hardcore," but that was the face of Dragon Ball for a long time in Japan. That was what got kids buying the merchandise and what put them in their theater seats each break to see hardcore villains like Coola and Android 13 tearing up the screen. Dragon Ball was less tongue-in-cheek and more "cool" and "hardcore" in a way not even most "serious" shonen series have been since. It's plainly obvious how much the franchise has moved away from that aesthetic in recent years as well. There are virtually no traces of it in the happy-go-lucky Kai era (again, similar to One Piece's branding). (Although we get a bit. Post-Budokai video-game intros/promotion, anyone? A certain element of that '90s edge has never left the series.)

And so, when it came stateside and got its Saturday-morning, American, mid- to late- '90s sort of "hardcore" reimagining, is it really so outrages? Before you laugh at the idea of "hardcore" Dragon Ball, think really hard about whether or not you enjoy any non-manga aspect of the franchise from the '90s. It was the product of a seriously "hardcore" age, and that philosophy has become so entwined with the franchise, it'll never truly leave (see again, all recent video-games, just to start with).
Last edited by Cipher on Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by Michsi » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:49 pm

I for one, always believed that DBZ had been " hardcore" even in Japan during it's prime. The anime has a distinctly darker tone , especially during the Namek and Cell sagas. If I'm not mistaken,it even had a differen't time slot compared to One Piece , that is an early sunday show.

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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by MarcFBR » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:45 pm

Cipher wrote:Is it okay to talk about this now? Because it really was. And as a result of developing itself throughout the '90s, certain elements of the franchise still are. A post I made in a recent thread made me decide to finally organize my thoughts on this. Hopefully this reads at least slightly coherently, but at any rate, here it is for your consideration:

Ah, Daizex. Probably the only Dragon Ball board on the Internet where "hardcore"' is a dirty word, power-level discussions get pushed to side-threads in subforums and moderators correct for grammar (which I can't express my gratitude for enough). If you're not owning up to the fact that Dragon Ball is a happy-go-lucky kids' series, you're in the wrong place.
Cause power level discussions equate to hardcore? And bad grammar is cool I guess?
"Look at the goofy crossovers with One Piece! Look at the 2008 Jump Special! Toriyama can't remember things! It's silly, silly, silly and Toriyama can't even remember anything!"
You act like the show itself wasn't that goofy... I mean... the manga was one title, and a good chunk of it was gag after gag after gag.
"'Rock the Dragon'? Misinterpretive blasphemy. The Toonami aesthetic? Misinterpretive nostalgic, awesome blasphemy. Serious? Never. Power levels? Their failure was a major theme of the Namek arc and they were never brought up again."
Once again... how are power levels hardcore?
Spend a week or two on Daizex, and you'll walk away with the impression that Dragon Ball, apparently, was never hardcore in Japan.
Because it isn't. It's a kids comic book.
And as far as the manga goes, that seems fairly accurate. It's very tongue-in-cheek. Toriyama's second editor (from what I understand) pushed him in a more action-oriented direction in the Saiyan, Namek and Android arcs, but even then we had humorous villains, the strongest characters taking the smallest forms, and a general disregard for logic when it got in the way of having fun. The final 26 volumes may be a little more serious, but they're very much give the impression of a light-hearted manga artist doing his best to approximate what would seem "cool" and "badass" to Japanese children and tweens at the behest of his editors. If not always completely silly, it's always very fun.
This paragraph sorta is arguing the opposite... so I don't have much to say.
But the franchise as a whole? Whoo-boy. Japan was rocking the dragon before other dimensions were even a twinkle in Funimation's eye (huh?). Without further discussion, let's just set the tone for Dragon Ball marketing in '91-'95 or so with these:

The DBZ "Virtual Triangle" Music Hits CD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULgJ_YAhYAM

DBZ "Hyper Anime" Special: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXSkOle8IXQ (WARNING: Gratuitous '90s)

See also: Insert songs "Battle Point Unlimited" and "Solid State Scouter," any other early '90s CDs, any early '90s promotional art (poster art, wall scrolls, etc.), any '90s video-game intro or commercial, any '90s Carddass set (which can all be found conveniently here.)
So your evidence is... some songs... a clip with rock music in the background... and cards with shiny foil?
See also, any of the Z movies, which suddenly concern themselves with over-muscled villains unlike anything seen in the series proper. Oh, Toei, you have to put those kids in the theaters over break, right? (See observations about the Z movie villains here.)
I'm not sure how muscles fully equals hardcore. Having a villain be 'bigger' than the hero is a relatively common element in fiction.
Maybe it's not immediately recognizable as over-serious "hardcore marketing," being a very '90s, occasionally very neon (dat Carddass), very stylish, Japanese version. But it is. For a frame of reference, if it involves mentions of the word "battle power," "virtual," uses any gratuitous CGI, involves dramatic poses and muted colors, or conversely, really garish neon colors, or any combination of these elements, it's being marketed deadly seriously.
...This one is just stupid... the WORDS battle power make it hardcore? And the word virtual also somehow? And... CGI? I'm gonna go watch Toy Story... cause it's TOTALLY hardcore (especially Mr. Potato Head, that dude is hardcore, he removes his EYES!)

You are equating odd off elements that sometimes appear in things that 'may' be equated hardcore to 'this means it's hardcore'... which it doesn't.
Toei's Dragon Ball franchise is guilty of all of that in spades, and while it began as an attempt to stay relevant in the '90s, elements of it have remained fixed in the franchise worldwide.

Why? What was happening? Well, in 1990, something very interesting began to happen. The '90s started. And with them, pop media the world over (but particularly in Japan and America, with their increasing back-and-forth) decided it had to become hardcore. Like, really hardcore.
Hardcore existed before the 1990s. Crazy hardcore.
For a frame of reference, the same time U.S. Transformers comics (Hey, look, a joint Japanese-American franchise! How convenient!) were producing hyper-violent stories about big guns and vaguely defined green-gray mech fluid:
Image
Image
These are NOT your father's Dragon Balls.
But seriously, these are really good. Don't judge them.
So your proof of DBZ being hardcore is that... Transformers had some violent comics? And since you are using Gen2 comics.... comics that were SO AWESOMELY HARDCORE AND POPULAR that it was cancelled after... 12 issues I think?
The franchise in Japan was seeing a series of manga and magazine story pages by Hidetsugu Yoshioka directly modeled upon their American counterparts: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers:_G- ... ry_page%29

Also at the same time, Transformers commercials across the world looked like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23EvUt5DXZk

Neon everywhere? Gratuitous CGI animation? HARDCORENESS? Holy shit, it's the DBZ Hyper Anime all over again. Cue synthesized bass and dancing Cell.
Still on Transformers.... That isn't really hardcore... that's more.... loud and flashy to get the attention of children.
It's tangential, but it's there to give you an impression of what other Japanese(-ish) productions clearly trying to make themselves more serious at the time were doing, and just how much the Dragon Ball franchise at the time fit in. And of course, at the same time, you also had Godzilla making his kind-of serious, but not-really-that-serious-it-turns-out return in the Heisei series. It was all over.
Once again, you sort of argue with yourself...
And before you think, "Well, okay. But Dragon Ball was just being marketed as a serious shonen property for a while. That's pretty timeless," it's not. Dragon Ball was as '90s hardcore as '90s hardcore got. Compare it to the marketing One Piece gets now, which (I don't follow it, but I'm tangentially aware) is still a lot more happy-go-lucky in its films and promotional material. Even Naruto, which, the last time I experienced it back in seventh grade, is a far more self-important series than Dragon Ball ever was, promotes itself a bit more broadly. (And aren't its films a little sillier as well? Am I making that up?)
There is so much stupidity here my head actually hurts a little. It's hardcore but you give no evidence except... it has advertising like One Piece? Which you are only slightly aware of? And I'm not quite sure why you mentioned Naruto...
And finally, let's touch on the much-magligned power levels. I don't want to aggregate all previous discussion on it, but they were clearly less an effort to provide a message on over-reliance upon technology, and more a calculated attempt to appeal to children in that serious shonen vein. It's been discussed here multiple times before. Japanese children, more so than in the West, it seems, dig numerical power rankings, card games, etc. To that extent, they continued to appear in promotional materials (we had some movie power-level magazine scans floating around here recently, didn't we?) and Carddass sets years and years later. The "Kili" in the Boo arc seem less a story-telling necessity and more an attempt to promote a more useable scale as well. I have no doubt someone was giving Toriyama input from a marketing perspective.
Power levels again? I'm half convinced this entire post is to convince us that power level discussions are SUPER AWESOME!
So, yeah. It's all a very Saturday-morning, Japanese, '90s sort of "hardcore," but that was the face of Dragon Ball for a long time in Japan. That was what got kids buying the merchandise and what put them in their theater seats each break to see hardcore villains like Coola and Android 13 tearing up the screen. Dragon Ball was less tongue-in-cheek and more "cool" and "hardcore" in a way not even most "serious" shonen series have been since. It's plainly obvious how much the franchise has moved away from that aesthetic in recent years as well. There are virtually no traces of it in the happy-go-lucky Kai era (again, similar to One Piece's branding). (Although we get a bit. Post-Budokai video-game intros/promotion, anyone? A certain element of that '90s edge has never left the series.)
Still don't see much in the way of evidence... I mean... there wasn't really much that different between Coola and Android 13 than other villians, minus that their appearances were ultra compressed, giving them the appearance of being bigger threats at times.
And so, when it came stateside and got its Saturday-morning, American, mid- to late- '90s sort of "hardcore" reimagining, is it really so outrages? Before you laugh at the idea of "hardcore" Dragon Ball, think really hard about whether or not you enjoy any non-manga aspect of the franchise from the '90s. It was the product of a seriously "hardcore" age, and that philosophy has become so entwined with the franchise, it'll never truly leave (see again, all recent video-games, just to start with).
The 90s aren't nearly as hardcore as you seem to think.

I'd keep commenting, but I'm worried I might have to spike my hair and talk about how X-TREME stuff is.

DBZ is not hardcore. It if a fun and entertaining show and comic for children and children of all ages. People of all ages are allowed to enjoy it. It is not hardcore, extreme, ULTRAVIOLENT, filled with random curse words, or any other delusions some fans have. Get over it.
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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by Perfect » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:18 pm

MarcFBR wrote:It's a fun and entertaining show and comic for children and children of all ages. People of all ages are allowed to enjoy it.
^Pretty much this. I'll always enjoy the show regardless of my age.

Edit: I guess it can be "hardcore", it really all depends on the context and how you melt the word into that context so the definition fits.
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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by Cipher » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:51 pm

I suppose I should clarify.

The show is certainly an all-ages affair. Even its edgy era in the '90s very much catered to a child/tween's definition of "cool."

But while most of the Western fandom seems to incorrectly aggrandize its "hardcoreness" or "seriousness," or what have you, a lot of the Daizex crowd seems to take the opposite extreme, looking at the presence of "Zenkai Power" and wacky characters throughout this portion of the series and saying it was never put forth as a dark or serious franchise, when it certainly was (as much as a shonen series can be) for several years.

Also, I love the fact that Daizex is the way it is, if anyone was misinterpreting the introduction. I especially wasn't kidding when I said I love the grammar edits, Marc -- they're the best thing the best thing since sliced bread. (I work 40 hours a week as an editor of my university newspaper; I mean it.) I just question some of its more commonly accepted philosophies occasionally.
Edit: I guess it can be "hardcore", it really all depends on the context and how you melt the word into that context so the definition fits.
I tried to explain this in the opening post, but I guess I didn't do a very good job. Like I said, maybe not so much in the context of "Rahh!! WWF! X-TREME!" but in a very Japanese, Saturday-morning, '90s kind of way. (Although given the extremely young crowd the former usually attracts, it's still arguably a fair comparison).

It was never "ADULT," but was there a period where it was meant to seem as badass and epic as possible to Japanese children? Absolutely. Much in the same way other ostensibly child-oriented properties became around that time. Again, compare its Kai marketing to what we see around 1992. One is definitely painting the series in a much more serious light, and some elements of that have even rooted themselves permanently into the series and franchise aesthetic.

That's the sort of thing I was trying to get at, and that's the sort of thing that's frequently glossed over in attempts to separate the franchise from the "RAH HARDCORE" crowed. This topic wasn't meant to be an indictment of anything, just a collection of thoughts on the franchise, its stages, and some of the divide we see today, which I'd argue is less than necessary.

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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:12 pm

No, I don't think you explained yourself well enough (which is somewhat frightening considering the amount of thought you put into explaining yourself ^_~. That's how it rolls, sometimes). I think you pigeon-holed what you set up as the opposing viewpoint a little too much, reducing it down to (as you sorta described), "Zenkai Power and poop jokes, oh my!"

No-one here with any authority and knowledge is going to deny that the series gets more serious as it proceeds onward (with the exception of the Buu arc, which somehow combines "serious" and "slapstick" to insane levels that only Toriyama could ever do). It's not just how DB works, but is the de facto standard for shonen series in general. It almost has to, as Marc mentioned, to some degree -- where else would it go? If there's a better trope for extending these types of series into the decades upon decades of serialization, I have yet to see it capitalized on.

The thing that some of us take issue with (or at least like to examine and contrast, and not necessarily even take issue with in reality) is that things like the North American marketing of the series (specifically under the watchful eye of Barry Watson) were gross exaggerations of what was only there in moderation before. Not only that, but said gross exaggerations were an entire culture and an entire decade off from relevance.

And that's all there really is to it, without getting into further depth.
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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by dprez » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:18 pm

I'll just say that the Dragon Boxes I've been watching, with the graphically violent scenes and the suggestive humor and life situations, is something I'd bet the majority of mothers around the world would not want their children to see until they reach a certain age.

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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:20 pm

dprez wrote:I'll just say that the Dragon Boxes I've been watching, with the graphically violent scenes and the suggestive humor and life situations, is something I'd bet the majority of mothers around the world would not want their children to see until they reach a certain age.
But, I'd argue, very little of it is actually "adult". It's all... childish. None of the suggestive humor rises above anything painfully juvenile, and very little of the violence goes above and beyond what we all thought was super awesome crazy cool when we were little kids (explosions! blasts! body pieces! cool!).
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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by Cipher » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:25 pm

VegettoEX wrote:No, I don't think you explained yourself well enough (which is somewhat frightening considering the amount of thought you put into explaining yourself ^_~. That's how it rolls, sometimes). I think you pigeon-holed what you set up as the opposing viewpoint a little too much, reducing it down to (as you sorta described), "Zenkai Power and poop jokes, oh my!"
Fair enough. And for the record, I didn't mean to indict the attitude of the site either. Any extremes one way or the other have come from various users and user group-think.
VegettoEX wrote:The thing that some of us take issue with (or at least like to examine and contrast, and not necessarily even take issue with in reality) is that things like the North American marketing of the series (specifically under the watchful eye of Barry Watson) were gross exaggerations of what was only there in moderation before. Not only that, but said gross exaggerations were an entire culture and an entire decade off from relevance.
Which I totally understand as well. Again, I just see this taken to the opposite extreme sometimes, denying that Dragon Ball was ever presented as anything other than wonderfully whimsical and tongue-in-cheek during its initial run.

Also, I compiled the opening post as I was on deadline for making it to an afternoon meeting, which could explain why it's a little (a lot?) more vague and rambly than I usually strive for.
VegettoEX wrote:Very little of the violence goes above and beyond what we all thought was super awesome crazy cool when we were little kids (explosions! blasts! body pieces! cool!)
And, finally, if I can just piggyback off this:

This is basically what I was getting at, the idea that trying to hook kids and tweens on, "Explosions! Blasts! Body pieces! Cool!" isn't the Western invention fans frequently peg it as. It was pretty much Toei's schtick throughout the '90s, and it remains a (much lighter) presence in the franchise to this day. That is all.

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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by MarcFBR » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:38 pm

Cipher wrote:This is basically what I was getting at, the idea that trying to hook kids and tweens on, "Explosions! Blasts! Body pieces! Cool!" isn't the Western invention fans frequently peg it as. It was pretty much Toei's schtick throughout the '90s, and it remains a (much lighter) presence in the franchise to this day. That is all.
That's basically the point though.

That is basically a Western hook.

In Japan it was a kids comic, made by an author/artist who was already relatively popular, which got an animated series.

It was generally sold as an 'action adventure' series, with the characters on a journey of friendship and adventure, with some fun fight scenes. It generally wasn't sold on 'violence' at all in Japan, because frankly, even among Shonen Jump franchises that ran at the same time, it's rather mild.
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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by Cipher » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:45 pm

MarcFBR wrote:It was generally sold as an 'action adventure' series, with the characters on a journey of friendship and adventure, with some fun fight scenes. It generally wasn't sold on 'violence' at all in Japan, because frankly, even among Shonen Jump franchises that ran at the same time, it's rather mild.
Hm. I suppose that's actually a fair distinction. Both the Western adaptations and Toei did seem to push an edgier or more series aesthetic for the series, but I suppose they never highlighted the actual, physical violence in Japan. They did try to get it to really ooze cool for a while though (fire and lighting in every video-game commercial, dramatic poses and synth bass right and left), in a way they've downplayed since.

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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by MarcFBR » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:49 pm

Cipher wrote:They did try to get it to really ooze cool for a while though (fire and lighting in every video-game commercial, dramatic poses and synth bass right and left), in a way they've downplayed since.
You do realize that was normal for the time in every way... frankly it's normal NOW.

Which is sort of the point. If everything about it basically mild/normal/expected you can't really say it's hardcore/extreme/etc.

DB/Z is beloved because of how normal and expected elements of it's genre were able to gel together into more than the sum of their parts, not because the content itself was shocking in any way.
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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by dprez » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:04 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
dprez wrote:I'll just say that the Dragon Boxes I've been watching, with the graphically violent scenes and the suggestive humor and life situations, is something I'd bet the majority of mothers around the world would not want their children to see until they reach a certain age.
But, I'd argue, very little of it is actually "adult". It's all... childish. None of the suggestive humor rises above anything painfully juvenile, and very little of the violence goes above and beyond what we all thought was super awesome crazy cool when we were little kids (explosions! blasts! body pieces! cool!).
I'd say DBZ's target audience is teens 13-18, or at least that is what would be socially accepted by the majority as when "kids" should be able to see this kind of show. That stuff is definitely more "cool" than "adult".

Personally I'd let my 10 year old son watch this for sure. Even 7 or 8 depending on how mature he is, but I'd just be a cool dad who would have raised his son right to begin with. A lot of other parents wouldn't let there children watch.

The term "hardcore" is a little vague, but I wouldn't necessarily label DBZ as a "hardcore show" to someone who asked about it. "Badass" is a word I would prefer to use.

EDIT: Heck, now that I recall, I watched Total Recall with my mom when I was 5, and didn't have to hide my eyes for triple tity lady :lol:
Last edited by dprez on Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by samuraix123 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:22 pm

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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by MarcFBR » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:00 am

dprez wrote:I'd say DBZ's target audience is teens 13-18, or at least that is what would be socially accepted by the majority as when "kids" should be able to see this kind of show. That stuff is definitely more "cool" than "adult".

Personally I'd let my 10 year old son watch this for sure. Even 7 or 8 depending on how mature he is, but I'd just be a cool dad who would have raised his son right to begin with. A lot of other parents wouldn't let there children watch.

The term "hardcore" is a little vague, but I wouldn't necessarily label DBZ as a "hardcore show" to someone who asked about it. "Badass" is a word I would prefer to use.

EDIT: Heck, now that I recall, I watched Total Recall with my mom when I was 5, and didn't have to hide my eyes for triple tity lady :lol:
That may be what you think the target audience is... but it isn't.

The target audience for DB and DBZ is very simple, one word: kids.

More detailed- Male Japanese kids.

That is the target audience from when it was originally made and in production that they aimed for. The keyword is still kids, not teens.
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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by dprez » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:19 am

MarcFBR wrote:
dprez wrote:I'd say DBZ's target audience is teens 13-18, or at least that is what would be socially accepted by the majority as when "kids" should be able to see this kind of show. That stuff is definitely more "cool" than "adult".

Personally I'd let my 10 year old son watch this for sure. Even 7 or 8 depending on how mature he is, but I'd just be a cool dad who would have raised his son right to begin with. A lot of other parents wouldn't let there children watch.

The term "hardcore" is a little vague, but I wouldn't necessarily label DBZ as a "hardcore show" to someone who asked about it. "Badass" is a word I would prefer to use.

EDIT: Heck, now that I recall, I watched Total Recall with my mom when I was 5, and didn't have to hide my eyes for triple tity lady :lol:
That may be what you think the target audience is... but it isn't.

The target audience for DB and DBZ is very simple, one word: kids.

More detailed- Male Japanese kids.

That is the target audience from when it was originally made and in production that they aimed for. The keyword is still kids, not teens.
I wonder how male Japanese kids differ in terms of content in a show that is deemed "allowable" for them to see, compared to other kids around the world. I guess it's a cultural thing. There certainly wouldn't be an American show like this aimed for kids back in the early 90's. We had shows like Rugrats and the more serious super hero stuff like Batman/X-men/ect...

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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by MarcFBR » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:15 am

dprez wrote:I wonder how male Japanese kids differ in terms of content in a show that is deemed "allowable" for them to see, compared to other kids around the world. I guess it's a cultural thing. There certainly wouldn't be an American show like this aimed for kids back in the early 90's. We had shows like Rugrats and the more serious super hero stuff like Batman/X-men/ect...
Some stuff we find appropriate, some stuff they find appropriate.

Plenty of people didn't find Batman or X-Men to be 'appropriate' for kids either (the last season of Batman before it's relaunch a few seasons later is noticeably toned down for example.)

Hell, for the first decade of it's life plenty of people found The Simpsons to be damn near deplorable.

And we had plenty of relatively violent kids franchises in the 80s and 90s (and we still have some now in fact.) Transformers movie killed Prime and half the characters, GI Joe ended with Duke in a coma (they were originally gonna kill him, but after kids freaked out about Prime they decided that wasn't a good idea.)

It's always amusing to see how the Japanese take some of our 'kids entertainment' and tweak it for them. As an example, Beast Wars was seen as overly serious, so they added far more comedy (poor Rattrap and his characterization...) among many other changes.
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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:06 am

I don't like these assumptions and debates, because the whole OP is based from the point of view of outsider, who didn't experienced it from the first hand. I don't see Dragon Ball any more hardcore than other series at that time, not to mention it spammed for 20 shit pop CDs but we never got full soundtrack, half of it is missing (not to mention first series where we got about 20% of tracks). Even the smaller series got full soundtracks and the advertising was like this for all the 90's series in Japan if you will search some advertisements.
Well, One Piece is airing in the morning, but for the record there is more blood then ever was in anime version of Dragon Ball and yeah, it's kinda happy series, that's why I like it. I don't need any other carbon copy of Dragon Ball with the dark atmosphere like the Cell arc was and I don't know what (which is the most boring arc for me and I never liked it being fan of Dragon Ball humour, I think the Cell arc was kinda over the top) . Dragon Ball in pirate setting? Stupid. That Luffy and Naruto are Goku wannabees is more than enough.

That doesn't change that 80's and 90's were cool eras and I will always love hand drawn animation. Everything is dumbed down nowadays and more merchandise oriented and J-pop is worse than ever.
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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by Pieter » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:36 am

MarcFBR wrote:
dprez wrote:I'd say DBZ's target audience is teens 13-18, or at least that is what would be socially accepted by the majority as when "kids" should be able to see this kind of show. That stuff is definitely more "cool" than "adult".

Personally I'd let my 10 year old son watch this for sure. Even 7 or 8 depending on how mature he is, but I'd just be a cool dad who would have raised his son right to begin with. A lot of other parents wouldn't let there children watch.

The term "hardcore" is a little vague, but I wouldn't necessarily label DBZ as a "hardcore show" to someone who asked about it. "Badass" is a word I would prefer to use.

EDIT: Heck, now that I recall, I watched Total Recall with my mom when I was 5, and didn't have to hide my eyes for triple tity lady :lol:
That may be what you think the target audience is... but it isn't.

The target audience for DB and DBZ is very simple, one word: kids.

More detailed- Male Japanese kids.

That is the target audience from when it was originally made and in production that they aimed for. The keyword is still kids, not teens.
Shonen means boys up to the age of 13, right? (excluding 14 year olds) So what type of cartoon in Japan is aimed at 14-17 year olds?

I got into Dragon Ball when I was 13. Today it's mostly nostalgia which has kept my interest. From personal observation I remember that in highschool it was mostly 13-15 year olds watching DBZ while the younger kids watched somewhat more kiddy series such as Pokemon.

That's why I was surprised to learn that supposedly Dragon Ball was marketed at a younger age group. Are we sure Db isn't mostly targeted at ~8 to 15 year olds? I understand that Shonen means 'boy', but in what category do 14-17 year olds fall? They're neither Shonen nor Seinen. Yet I suppose this age group forms a huge part of the viewers / readers of anime / manga in Japan, but nothing is marketed for them?
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Re: So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

Post by Wobbuffet » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:53 am

I kinda understand what Cipher means.
Most titles from Shonen Jump are aimed towards 10-16 years old teens. Dragon Ball is not a kodomo series.

The thing is that when you're a kid it's cool to say that you like a hardcore series, but once you're an adult, it's cool to say "oh, that's a kids show, you should have gotten over it already."

And I know I won't introduce Dragon Ball to my kids until they reach a certain age (maybe 10).

Semi-related: I think this could be relevant for the discussion, since One Piece is the Dragon Ball of today.
This graph shows that only 12% of the people who reads One Piece is 1-18 years old. That's pretty impressive for a Shonen Jump series. Some people buy only the graphic novels and don't buy the magazine itself.
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