So, um, Dragon Ball was pretty "hardcore" in Japan too

[Michsi]

Tbh, the term "hardcore" always seemed like something I'd attributed to kids shows. Shows that capture all those elements that teenage kids find cool , so even if the term applies to DBZ in it's original unedited version, it never really was anything other than a kids show.
Comparing it to One Piece isn't really wrong. One Piece embraces it's silliness a little more than DB did and Toei also treats it a little different too, IMO.

Specials like "Yo! Son Goku and friends return" and the new Bardock special don't really remind me of the series.

[AgitoZ]

I don't know. I think everyone should read some of the other series DB ran with in WSJ. Fist of the North Star and Saint Seiya are on a whole other level. DB was definitely a product of its time, taking very radical 90s ideas from both the culture at the time and other titles it ran with. Hell, PLs aren't all that original, Kinnikuman was doing it long before DB.

[Gonstead]

DBZ "Hyper Anime" Special: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXSkOle8IXQ (WARNING: Gratuitous '90s)

Can anyone name the song used in this or is it just made specifically for this?

[dbgtFO]

And finally, let's touch on the much-magligned power levels. I don't want to aggregate all previous discussion on it, but they were clearly less an effort to provide a message on over-reliance upon technology, and more a calculated attempt to appeal to children in that serious shonen vein. It's been discussed here multiple times before. Japanese children, more so than in the West, it seems, dig numerical power rankings, card games, etc. To that extent, they continued to appear in promotional materials (we had some movie power-level magazine scans floating around here recently, didn't we?) and Carddass sets years and years later. The "Kili" in the Boo arc seem less a story-telling necessity and more an attempt to promote a more useable scale as well. I have no doubt someone was giving Toriyama input from a marketing perspective.

The only known interview I know of where Toriyama states something about scouters and its use is this:
http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-bc_r02.p ... =interview
wherein his answer to the question:

How was the scouter born?

was the following:

I thought that maybe if strength and enemy position were shown through numbers, then it would be easy to understand for both the enemy characters and the readers.

So it was Toriyama trying to simplify it for the enemies and readers alike.
That it turned out to be extremely unreliable, when dealing with the heroes to the point you couldn't tell the difference between a super strong dude and a regular dude, was as far as we know not the original point of it. It just developed into that.

(we had some movie power-level magazine scans floating around here recently, didn't we?)

Yeah and also ones to promote Budokai 3.

[perucho1990]

I kinda understand what Cipher means.
Most titles from Shonen Jump are aimed towards 10-16 years old teens. Dragon Ball is not a kodomo series.

The thing is that when you're a kid it's cool to say that you like a hardcore series, but once you're an adult, it's cool to say "oh, that's a kids show, you should have gotten over it already."

And I know I won't introduce Dragon Ball to my kids until they reach a certain age (maybe 10).

Semi-related: I think this could be relevant for the discussion, since One Piece is the Dragon Ball of today.This graph shows that only 12% of the people who reads One Piece is 1-18 years old. That's pretty impressive for a Shonen Jump series. Some people buy only the graphic novels and don't buy the magazine itself.
http://img3.sankakustatic.com/wp-conten ... ship-1.jpg

And they deserve it. Luffy is probably the best shonen hero since Goku.

And lets remember that no Goku = No one giving 2 rats about Manga/anime.

If I'm not mistaken, Pokemon is a Kodomo series, and is still one of the most popular shows in Japan despite its staleness.

I liked Pokemon...until Johto Arc was over, then it got repetitive and the people got sick of Pikachu around 2005-2006..

[Ringworm128]

Yes it is a kids show, but it is pretty "hardcore". To me thats what makes DB so great it blends goofy/silly gags/humour along with cheesy stuff like the Ginyu Special Squad along with darker stuff like necks being broken, blood, genocide and the whole thing of the future where Trunks comes from.

[xXInfinite026Xx]

To me, this discussion stems from western fans wanting to exploit traits typical of a western "hardcore" show out of something that is equivalent to a popular saturday morning cartoon in Japan. Nothing more.

[kei17]

To me, this discussion stems from western fans wanting to exploit traits typical of a western "hardcore" show out of something that is equivalent to a popular saturday morning cartoon in Japan. Nothing more.

Indeed. In Japan, violent stuff like necks being broken is ordinary among anime targeted at children that it is not even considered as "hardcore".

[Mewzard]

I don't know. I think everyone should read some of the other series DB ran with in WSJ. Fist of the North Star and Saint Seiya are on a whole other level. DB was definitely a product of its time, taking very radical 90s ideas from both the culture at the time and other titles it ran with. Hell, PLs aren't all that original, Kinnikuman was doing it long before DB.

How Fist of the North Star was ever ok for a Shonen manga is beyond me. The anime was EXTREMELY censored compared to the manga. Detailed bodily deformations and explosions were a norm in the chapters (and iirc, the first one we see is a gruesome head explosion with brains being seen). Fun series, but something that would definitely not be categorized as Shonen by Jump in the modern era (it'd probably be shunted off to another book as a Seinen, like Jojo's Bizarre Adventure was).

Saint Seiya was definitely violent, but 95% of it could be accepted in the modern era as shonen...but there was always one scene here or there where Phoenix Ikki used his Genma Ken to mind**** someone into thinking they were brutally dismembered, or someone'd get fake decapitated either by illusion (Shun's talking severed head in the Hades arc was an amusing moment though), or another character reading more into a scenario, and assuming the worse (and that doesn't count the Sphinx Specter using his musical instrument to pull Seiya's still beating heart out of his chest to weigh his sins vs a feather, Egyptian style).

Dragon Ball was one of those rare instances where Toei added more violence to the anime then there appeared to be (at least in bloody scenes, like with the Makankosappo becoming a bloodbath). In the above two examples (interestingly enough, got far worse adaptations for other reasons, like poor animation quality *FotNS* or altering whole chunks of the plot *StS*, but have awesome manga), much of the violence and gore is either removed (Saint Seiya) or greatly reduced/censored (Fist of the North Star).

By modern standards, yeah, several things Dragon Ball did might be considered more hardcore/extreme than they really were back in the day. Shonens do have different standards: They can't be as violent as back in the day and they may show a lot of a breast, but it's very unlikely to get a nip shot (well, at least on female characters at the very least).

The PTA's gotten to Japan, it seems. Why they ever had a show like Bo-bobo removed from TV (when it's over bloody explosions as the slightest hit parodying Kenshiro level stuff was never there) is completely beyond me (at least we're finally getting bilingual uncut dvds in the US soon).

Some people just have standards you won't agree with. But, it seems, culturally, they have softened things up for kids. You'll probably never see Toei do the stories they did (and kill as major character as they did) in the 90s in Super Sentai in a modern series.

Hardcore back then? Not really. Now? Maybe a little. Kids shows always do seem to get away with more when you're younger than you see as an adult (maybe it'll swing the other way one day).

[Piccolo Daimao]

Dragon Ball was one of those rare instances where Toei added more violence to the anime then there appeared to be (at least in bloody scenes, like with the Makankosappo becoming a bloodbath)

Although, in some instances, I think that they made it less violent. See: Vegeta killing Gurd.

[hleV]

Seeing so much interest in DB from so many age groups, I assume that it was kinda wrong to call it "for children". While DB doesn't necessary have material not meant for children (Japanese children, duh), it's still interesting as shit, and the mentioned interest from various age groups proves that.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Seeing so much interest in DB from so many age groups, I assume that it was kinda wrong to call it "for children". While DB doesn't necessary have material not meant for children (Japanese children, duh), it's still interesting as shit, and the mentioned interest from various age groups proves that.

Well, yes, like a lot of shows, they originally start off having a target audience of children, but then they gain a fanbase of all ages. The same can go for vice versa. The Simpsons originally had some content that was for adults and deemed inappropiate for children, but then they kind of toned it down and now it's for all ages.

[Mewzard]

Dragon Ball was one of those rare instances where Toei added more violence to the anime then there appeared to be (at least in bloody scenes, like with the Makankosappo becoming a bloodbath)

Although, in some instances, I think that they made it less violent. See: Vegeta killing Gurd.

True, but I was just saying that, compared to some of it's contemporaries from Toei, it had some moments of added violence, compared to other series where violence was reduced all the time, rather than adding.

Of the three, though, DB had the most moments of in series nudity, which got reduced in the anime (while FotNS had at least one or two scenes where what little there was ended up being made more...er...nudified in anime).

I guess Toei likes their shonens to have certain amounts of content at certain times, and that means that some get more, and that some get less.

[Kendamu]

Seeing so much interest in DB from so many age groups, I assume that it was kinda wrong to call it "for children". While DB doesn't necessary have material not meant for children (Japanese children, duh), it's still interesting as shit, and the mentioned interest from various age groups proves that.

I generally put it under the category of "all ages" or something similar.

[Adamant]

they may show a lot of a breast, but it's very unlikely to get a nip shot (well, at least on female characters at the very least).

This I know is largely magazine-dependant - it's just that most shonen popular in the west are Weekly Jump series, and Weekly Jump has a ban on nipples in its print magazine edition (they're allowed in tankobons, but the illegal scanslations are largely made from the magazine versions).

At the same time, though, Jump SQ (which has no such anti-nipple rule) prints the series To-Love-ru (which previously ran in Weekly Jump), a series that seems to be largely an experiment in how close to straight-up porn its possible to get before being told to tone it down (the answer seems to be "very VERY close"). So there's that.

[Vision]

I generally only lurk but this got my interest.

The reason most of you want to say Dragonball is a "hardcore" anime is because no one likes to admit they love a children's cartoon show. You can come in here and say whatever you want to the contrary, that you are "above" what other people think is cool, that it REALLY doesn't matter to you what age group the Dragonball franchise is geared towards, becacuse it means something special to you, in your own way. But in reality, to defend your love of DB in the attempt to validate your continued interest in it as an adult by saying its hardcore is lame.

It is what it is, which is something you can't compare to a show like Spongebob because the circumstances, time period, audience, and ramifications of those two shows are totally different. It is the most simple to just say that DBZ appeals broadly, and is still vastly enjoyable as an adult. It interests me because it was successful in creating lasting icons like Goku and Vegeta that went on to symbolize a society/generation of Japanese, and whoever watched it. Anyone under the age of 50 in Japan knows what Dragonball is, and could tell you Goku's name if they saw him on a poster, even if they know next to nothing else about it. Housewives and college girls watched Kai when it aired, as did teachers and office workers. Of course, the people that are still most addicted to it are kids, mainly elementary school kids. Once they hit middle school it isn't so cool anymore. You can't walk into an arcade, or even a convenience store for that matter, without some type of DB reference. Either from a promotional flyer or manga cover. At least one student in every class I teach has 1 piece of Dragonball related paraphernalia (until middle school anyway). They have DB inspired food at izakayas, and almost every facet of Japanese life has some reference to DB, however small. And it is still largely watched by kids growing up. It is fascinating from an anthropological standpoint, and is still entertaining enough to watch. That makes it "hardcore" enough in my eyes.

[MarcFBR]

I generally only lurk but this got my interest.

The reason most of you want to say Dragonball is a "hardcore" anime is because no one likes to admit they love a children's cartoon show. You can come in here and say whatever you want to the contrary, that you are "above" what other people think is cool, that it REALLY doesn't matter to you what age group the Dragonball franchise is geared towards, becacuse it means something special to you, in your own way. But in reality, to defend your love of DB in the attempt to validate your continued interest in it as an adult by saying its hardcore is lame.

It is what it is, which is something you can't compare to a show like Spongebob because the circumstances, time period, audience, and ramifications of those two shows are totally different. It is the most simple to just say that DBZ appeals broadly, and is still vastly enjoyable as an adult. It interests me because it was successful in creating lasting icons like Goku and Vegeta that went on to symbolize a society/generation of Japanese, and whoever watched it. Anyone under the age of 50 in Japan knows what Dragonball is, and could tell you Goku's name if they saw him on a poster, even if they know next to nothing else about it. Housewives and college girls watched Kai when it aired, as did teachers and office workers. Of course, the people that are still most addicted to it are kids, mainly elementary school kids. Once they hit middle school it isn't so cool anymore. You can't walk into an arcade, or even a convenience store for that matter, without some type of DB reference. Either from a promotional flyer or manga cover. At least one student in every class I teach has 1 piece of Dragonball related paraphernalia (until middle school anyway). They have DB inspired food at izakayas, and almost every facet of Japanese life has some reference to DB, however small. And it is still largely watched by kids growing up. It is fascinating from an anthropological standpoint, and is still entertaining enough to watch. That makes it "hardcore" enough in my eyes.

Good post in general.

Glad to see an opinion from someone who can see the current reaction in Japan to all of it.