Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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FNF
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by FNF » Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:11 am
Hellspawn28 wrote:I remember people always believe that General Rildo was stronger then Vegito because Goku said that he was stronger then Buu. Goku never said which form of Buu, my guess would be Kid Buu since Kid Buu was the last form of Buu that Goku fought. General Rildo never seem to do anything that great, I think Buuhan or SSj Vegito could beat him just fine.
Well going by anime logic, that GT follows, Pure Boo is the strongest form of Boo and thus Rild>Pure Boo>>Gohan-Boo.
The 1st character in GT stated to be the strongest character in the whole series is Super Baby 2 (the one before his final form) so SSjin Vegetto isn't surpassed in GT until then.
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Hellspawn28
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by Hellspawn28 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:20 am
Was it really stated that Kid Buu was the strongest Buu in the DBZ anime or was it just a Funmation dub line? I personally never believe in the whole Kid Buu>Super Buu debate since I really don't think Kid Buu was strong enough to beat Buuhan or Vegito. If he was really stronger then Buuhan then both Goku and Vegeta would have to fuse to stop him if he was that powerful.
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TheDevilsCorpse
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by TheDevilsCorpse » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:40 am
Hellspawn28 wrote:Was it really stated that Kid Buu was the strongest Buu in the DBZ anime or was it just a Funmation dub line? I personally never believe in the whole Kid Buu>Super Buu debate since I really don't think Kid Buu was strong enough to beat Buuhan or Vegito. If he was really stronger then Buuhan then both Goku and Vegeta would have to fuse to stop him if he was that powerful.
Yes, it was stated in the Japanese version as well; once by the narrator, once by Goku, and once by Kibitoshin, I think. So its definitely an anime problem, not a Funi problem.
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Haji
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by Haji » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:58 am
I thought pure Buu, the little one was the strongest but i think Super Buu(Gohan absorbed) was the most powerful, he says it him self also. I just think the pure Buu is more powerful because he didn't hold back.
And about Vegetto, I think he could go far into GT. Goten and Trunks could only go SSJ, but when they fuse they could go SSJ3. Vegetto could easily go SSJ3. Vegetto's base form is more powerful than Goku as SSJ3. I think he may be able to beat Bebi.
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FNF
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by FNF » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:53 am
Haji wrote:I thought pure Buu, the little one was the strongest but i think Super Buu(Gohan absorbed) was the most powerful, he says it him self also. I just think the pure Buu is more powerful because he didn't hold back.
And about Vegetto, I think he could go far into GT. Goten and Trunks could only go SSJ, but when they fuse they could go SSJ3. Vegetto could easily go SSJ3. Vegetto's base form is more powerful than Goku as SSJ3. I think he may be able to beat Bebi.
Pure Boo is like the 3rd weakest Boo as he rivals SSjin3 Goku while Evil (Super) Boo was too strong for Goku to even attempt to fight.
I think the anime is the source for people to think that Pure Boo and Goku are monsters due to the mother load of horrible filler and statements.
btw Gotenks-Boo calls himself the strongest Majin and then Gohan-Boo said he powered up even more.
It should be;
Gohan-Boo>Gotenks-Boo>SouthKaioshin-Boo>Evil Boo>>Pure Boo>Fat Boo>Pure Evil Boo>Mr Boo.
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CatouttaHell
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by CatouttaHell » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:57 am
General Rild should be >> Base Vegetto and Gohan-Boo realistically.
Base Goku at the beginning of GT (hell, even at the end of Z) is already > Pure Boo and then he's stated to get a gargantuan power-up by the time he gets to M2, enough for his base form to blow out a fusion of three guys who individually are >>> his SSjin from before.
It just doesn't make sense IMO for him to be referring to a weaker form of Boo. If Cell actually died from his self-destruction, would that mean that all comparisons to Cell's power after that would be to Second Form Cell?
The kicker here is that in the Super No. 17 arc, Base Gohan winds up losing to General Rild. The GT Perfect Files says Gohan didn't neglect his training, meaning that GT Base Gohan >>> Ultimate Gohan.
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Pantalones
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by Pantalones » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:10 pm
The GT Perfect Files says Gohan didn't neglect his training, meaning that GT Base Gohan >>> Ultimate Gohan.
...or, y'know, equal... since there's no indication Gohan's being doing enough training to actually get stronger, only that he didn't stop training entirely (like in the gap between Cell and Buu) and get
weaker as a result.
Of course, GT also seems to forget about his Mystic/Ultimate/whatever powerup entirely, since Gohan goes Super Saiyan in GT and it's pretty clear in Z that the old Kaioshin's power-up actually replaced Super Saiyan for Gohan (the way he had to activate it was "power up like you're trying to go Super Saiyan," even.) So there's no way of knowing just how strong Gohan is supposed to be in GT... it's possible that his "Ultimate" power-up was temporary according to "GT canon" and Gohan is back to being only however strong he was after the Z-sword training now (however strong that may be, since he never actually does anything between that training and his next big power-up.) Which, of course, means he would definitely lose to anyone who was "stronger than Majin Buu" (especially in his base form!), regardless of which Buu that was.
Also, wasn't Gohan only losing because his arm got caught in that "encase you in metal" beam? I know he did get hit by that, but it's been a very long time since I saw GT, so I can't remember how the rest of the fight was going before that, or if it was even shown.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:56 pm
CatouttaHell wrote:General Rild should be >> Base Vegetto and Gohan-Boo realistically.
You can't be serious, the only indication on Rild's power was that he is stronger than Majin Boo, but Goku didn't refer which Boo.
CatouttaHell wrote:Base Goku at the beginning of GT (hell, even at the end of Z) is already > Pure Boo
What? Because he was fighting evenly with raged Oob, who by the way couldn't control his power according to Goku, which would imply that base Goku was either equal to Pure Boo or a little stronger. GT Goku shouldn't have powered up very much,since he was training Oob during the 5 years timeskip.
CatouttaHell wrote:The GT Perfect Files says Gohan didn't neglect his training, meaning that GT Base Gohan >>> Ultimate Gohan.
Why the hell would Gohan get that much stronger? I doubt Gohan was doing harsh training, and Vegeta managed to surpass Gohan in GT, and Gohan was waaaay stronger than Vegeta in Boo arc.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Hitiro
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by Hitiro » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:43 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:What? Because he was fighting evenly with raged Oob, who by the way couldn't control his power according to Goku, which would imply that base Goku was either equal to Pure Boo or a little stronger. GT Goku shouldn't have powered up very much,since he was training Oob during the 5 years timeskip.
Zenkai is a wonderful thing, Goku made Oob promise they would fight again after Goku had taught him everything, the beginning of GT is that battle that was promised by Oob. Hence Pure Boo/Oob(GT) >= Base Goku(GT) > SSJ3 Goku(DBZ)
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:46 pm
Hitiro wrote:DBZGTKOSDH wrote:What? Because he was fighting evenly with raged Oob, who by the way couldn't control his power according to Goku, which would imply that base Goku was either equal to Pure Boo or a little stronger. GT Goku shouldn't have powered up very much,since he was training Oob during the 5 years timeskip.
Zenkai is a wonderful thing, Goku made Oob promise they would fight again after Goku had taught him everything, the beginning of GT is that battle that was promised by Oob. Hence Pure Boo/Oob(GT) >= Base Goku(GT) > SSJ3 Goku(DBZ)
Near-death power-ups have stopped according to Daizenshuu. But after thinking it a little more,
CatouttaHell is actualy right on this, so I take back what I said before. Oob in GT should be way stronger than Oob in Z who was as strong as Pure Boo was, so if base Goku could keep up with Oob in GT, then we have
Base Goku (GT) = Oob (GT) > SSJ3 Goku (Z) > Pure Boo = Oob (Z)
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Silkman3003
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by Silkman3003 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:50 am
How strong do you guy's believe Super Gogeta is(not counting gt)?
Reason I ask Is because I've also seen theories
1.In which people try to say that Ssj3 Gotenks>>Super gogeta.(the one I feel is crazy, but w/e)
2. Then again, i've seen people say Super Gogeta=Super Vegito(except that Vegito's fusion is permanent)
3.And I've seen people say that super gogeta is weaker, but not by too much. IE He could still beat Buuhan, but he would have to exert more power, compared to Vegito
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by Hitiro » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:40 am
Silkman3003 wrote:How strong do you guy's believe Super Gogeta is(not counting gt)?
Reason I ask Is because I've also seen theories
1.In which people try to say that Ssj3 Gotenks>>Super gogeta.(the one I feel is crazy, but w/e)
2. Then again, i've seen people say Super Gogeta=Super Vegito(except that Vegito's fusion is permanent)
3.And I've seen people say that super gogeta is weaker, but not by too much. IE He could still beat Buuhan, but he would have to exert more power, compared to Vegito
1. Super Gogeta would be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, purely because the boost of fusion alone is quite high (This is why SSJ Gotenks trumps SSJ3 Goku) and Goku plus Vegeta are the strongest base characters (except Gohan).
2. I'm not sure on this but from what I read the Potara fusion is considered the most powerful for a few reasons, the first is you don't have to waste your time making sure your powerlevels are exactly equal and performing a dance that could go wrong. The second is there is no time limit on the transformation so you don't have to worry about the fusion ending in the middle of the battle. I came toe the conclusion that this is what it meant by Potara being the most powerful fusion as what Elder Kai said was "This is a fusion with no
weaknesses." So it's possible that the fusion effects produce equal warriors, however we never see Gogeta canonically and the information around the difference between the end result of the fusions is not clear.
3. I don't think Super Gogeta should have a problem with Buuhan as there is a significant boost from fusion alone, for the fusion technique to put two of the weakest Saiyans close to Innocent Boo in strength and for their SSJ form to be more than SSJ3 Goku it stands to reason that the boost is pretty substantial, probably something like adding a Super Perfect Cell to your power. So Goku + Vegeta, the strongest of the Saiyan's (Except Mystic Gohan) would probably be more than SSJ3 Goku in their base form.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:03 pm
Silkman3003 wrote:2. Then again, i've seen people say Super Gogeta=Super Vegito(except that Vegito's fusion is permanent)
SSJ4 Gogeta's battle power is several dozens bigger than a SSJ4. Vegetto's battle power is "Goku X Vegeta". Vegetto is stronger.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Silkman3003
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by Silkman3003 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:36 pm
I was deliberately ignoring GT(because comparing them causes way to many headaches that i'd rather not be brought here, like it was in the VS section)
. However, you're free to use that point if the "goku x Vegeta" is exclusive to Vegito, and to prove why he's stronger than Super Gogeta in Z/Movie12.
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:45 pm
Silkman3003 wrote:I was deliberately ignoring GT(because comparing them causes way to many headaches that i'd rather not be brought here, like it was in the VS section)
. However, you're free to use that point if the "goku x Vegeta" is exclusive to Vegito, and to prove why he's stronger than Super Gogeta in Z/Movie12.
In my head, if SSJ4 Gogeta in GT is several dozens stronger than a SSJ4 (Goku or Vegeta), then SSJ Gogeta in Movie 12 would also be several dozens stronger than a SSJ (Goku or Vegeta)
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Silkman3003
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by Silkman3003 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:30 pm
Ah, now I see your point.
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Mystic Gohan
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by Mystic Gohan » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:00 pm
Silkman3003 wrote:How strong do you guy's believe Super Gogeta is(not counting gt)?
Reason I ask Is because I've also seen theories
1.In which people try to say that Ssj3 Gotenks>>Super gogeta.(the one I feel is crazy, but w/e)
2. Then again, i've seen people say Super Gogeta=Super Vegito(except that Vegito's fusion is permanent)
3.And I've seen people say that super gogeta is weaker, but not by too much. IE He could still beat Buuhan, but he would have to exert more power, compared to Vegito
1.ssj3 gotenks is stronger than ssj gogeta.. Goten and trunks werent to far behind the adults, especially after coming out of the rosat. I believe fusion is the same for everyone.
2. Vegito stomps gogeta on equal forms. Elder kai states that fusion of goku and vegeta with the potara is the strongest, so vegito stomps.
3.I don't believe gogeta could beat buuhan in ssj. I think he would need ssj2 gor buuham.
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by goku the krump dancer » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:21 am
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:07 pm
Mystic Gohan wrote:ssj3 gotenks is stronger than ssj gogeta.. Goten and trunks werent to far behind the adults, especially after coming out of the rosat. I believe fusion is the same for everyone.
Janemba's power should be between Evil Boo & Innocent Boo, or even equal to Evil Boo. SSJ3 Gotenks was equal or stronger than Evil Boo. Janemba was nothing to SSJ Gogeta, while SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't beat Evil Boo very easily. So, how the heck is SSJ3 Gotenks stronger than SSJ Gogeta?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Silkman3003
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by Silkman3003 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:32 pm
Because he isn't. At least with Movie 12. At
worst, Janemba is base Super Buu level. Goku stated he had never felt a Ki as incredible as Fat Janemba's. The same Goku...who faced Fat Buu. So right here, he already know that Fat Janemba>Fat Buu.
Later on after Goku and Vegeta face Super Janemba, Goku explicitly states that he's never seen anyone as strong as Super Janemba.
So even if you wanted to say "Ssj3 Gotenks is alittle stronger or equal to Janemba/Super Buu", Ssj Gogeta stomped Janemba into the ground. And this was after Janemba had started to power up. So there is no way Ssj3 Gotenks would be superior to SsjGogeta at
all. With Movie 12 aleast.
With the manga however...this all goes into the argument as to how strong you believe Goten and Trunks are. The "goten and trunks aren't that far from Goku and Vegeta" isn't a set in stone fact. Since I've seen equal arguments for, and against that theory/argument.
