It doesn't matter whether or not they make sense. It's still anime and, therefore, irrelevant when talking about the manga.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I also don't include the movies in my manga canon, and I'm full aware of their incosistences. However, I use anime-only elements if they make sence, and Movie 13 having Goku using SSJ3 properly makes sence, at least for me.
Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
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Piccolo Daimao
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Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
But we aren't talking only about the manga in this thread, since GT is also in the mix.Piccolo Daimao wrote:It doesn't matter whether or not they make sense. It's still anime and, therefore, irrelevant when talking about the manga.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
I really find it weird when people assume that SSJ3 is either for dead people (Saiyans, that is) or a fusion. SSJ is for everyone. SSJ grades are for everyone. SSJ2 is for everyone. SSJ3 is for the dead and fusions? It's WEIRD. Fine, it's hard to stay in, but why make things so complicated? If SSJ forms have power requirement, which IMHO makes sense and I believe daizenshuu tells that a Saiyan needs high battle power for it, then Goku had enough power to achieve SSJ3, or possibly being in the afterlife helped him as well. Gotenks, on the other hand, is a bunchload stronger than Goku and achieves SSJ3 more easily. Gotenks doesn't seem to have such a big strain from SSJ3, probably because he's a bunchload stronger than Goku, although it reduces the fusion time, but that, we could say, is an another drawback of SSJ3, in case the user is a fusion. It also reduced the time Goku could stay in the living world.Piccolo Daimao wrote:No, I believe that he saw the disadvantages of SSj3 when alive from Goku vs. Kid Boo. If Goku couldn't even charge up enough power to finish off Kid Boo (who was roughly even with him) in one final attack, then it's inherently flawed. I don't think that SSj3 can ever be mastered, since it's a form that's best suited for when you're dead or a magical fusion, and using it when alive goes beyond its limits. Only regular SSj can be mastered.
So, no, I don't think Vegeta eventually reached SSj3. I don't think he even tried, but either way, I believe it's impossible to do so unless you're dead or a magical fusion.
Basically what Kaboom said.
Basically:
- (Theory) If you're not strong enough, being dead may help you achieve SSJ3.
- If you're strong enough, you can achieve SSJ3.
- If you're not strong enough, SSJ3 drains the shit out of you.
- If you're strong enough, you don't get drained (that much?).
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Piccolo Daimao
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Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
Oh, OK then.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:But we aren't talking only about the manga in this thread, since GT is also in the mix.Piccolo Daimao wrote:It doesn't matter whether or not they make sense. It's still anime and, therefore, irrelevant when talking about the manga.
In the anime continuity, I guess it's still a no. Goku in Movie #13 only used it for a short time and, I think, there was something about Hildegarn's weak spot. Anyway, the Dragon Fist of his was enough to finish him off, regardless of energy drain. I don't see anything different between Boo arc SSj3 Goku and Movie #13 SSj3 Goku.
We're not assuming. It's just a theory, and a perfectly valid one. It's not hard to get. SSj3 is different from the other SSj stages because Goku explictly stated that SSj3 in a living body eats up an excessive amount of ki, to the point that he can't even maintain the form when he's powering up for a final attack. This lends support towards the theory that it's somewhat more otherworldly than its previous forms, and the only people we see being able to achieve it is a dead Saiyan and a magical Fusion made up of two Saiyans who can apparently pull power out of thin air.hleV wrote:I really find it weird when people assume that SSJ3 is either for dead people (Saiyans, that is) or a fusion. SSJ is for everyone. SSJ grades are for everyone. SSJ2 is for everyone. SSJ3 is for the dead and fusions? It's WEIRD. Fine, it's hard to stay in, but why make things so complicated? If SSJ forms have power requirement, which IMHO makes sense and I believe daizenshuu tells that a Saiyan needs high battle power for it, then Goku had enough power to achieve SSJ3, or possibly being in the afterlife helped him as well. Gotenks, on the other hand, is a bunchload stronger than Goku and achieves SSJ3 more easily. Gotenks doesn't seem to have such a big strain from SSJ3, probably because he's a bunchload stronger than Goku, although it reduces the fusion time, but that, we could say, is an another drawback of SSJ3, in case the user is a fusion. It also reduced the time Goku could stay in the living world.
Yes, it is weird. Because it's SSj3. It's meant to be. I think it's you who's complicating things, because to me and others, it seems relatively simple. And SSj forms don't just have power requirements, they need catalysts of rage. And the stages themselves all have drawbacks too (e.g. SSjG3's speed drain). But, in Goku and Vegeta's case for SSj2, I think the Daizenshuu said something about them learning the form through "harsh training", in contrast to Gohan transforming through anger.
Last edited by Piccolo Daimao on Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
Movie 13 Goku is way stronger than Boo arc Goku.Piccolo Daimao wrote:I don't see anything different between Boo arc SSj3 Goku and Movie #13 SSj3 Goku.
Movie 13 SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan > Boo arc SSJ3 Goku
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Piccolo Daimao
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Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
Oh yeah, that.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Movie 13 Goku is way stronger than Boo arc Goku.Piccolo Daimao wrote:I don't see anything different between Boo arc SSj3 Goku and Movie #13 SSj3 Goku.
Movie 13 SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan > Boo arc SSJ3 Goku
Well, it's movies. Like I said, they don't make much sense. The anime and movies have fucked-up continuities. See that post I did. Heck, in DBZ Movie #5, some people think that base Goku is stronger than 100% Freeza based on Coola's statement (something like "You did well...enough to defeat my brother" after base Goku and Coola had a short scuffle)! I don't know how you can reconcile that into making any sense. Toei just don't care about that stuff. That's why I originally thought we were talking about the manga, because bringing the anime into the equation just makes everything a clusterfuck.
Besides, how do you explain SSj3 Goku getting that strong solely from Earth training?
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
How the hell should I know?Piccolo Daimao wrote:Besides, how do you explain SSj3 Goku getting that strong solely from Earth training?
But it fits in the anime, since in GT, he is waaaaay stronger than he was in Z, without SSJ4.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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TheDevilsCorpse
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Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:@TheDevilsCorpse Is there a SSJ4 Vegeta pic like the Goku & Gogeta you posted? They look awesome.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
Thanks a lot!
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Piccolo Daimao
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Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
If you can't explain how Goku got that strong, then your point's invalid. Just because it "fits" in the anime doesn't mean it makes sense.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:How the hell should I know?Piccolo Daimao wrote:Besides, how do you explain SSj3 Goku getting that strong solely from Earth training?
But it fits in the anime, since in GT, he is waaaaay stronger than he was in Z, without SSJ4.
And GT's fucked-up in terms of power-scaling. I don't need to tell you that.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
Goku in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai in the manga was much stronger than he was in Boo arc too. His base form was in par with raged Oob, who was equal or a little weaker (due to lack of controling his power) to Pure Boo, who was about equal to SSJ3 Goku in terms of power.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
No that's wrong. There's absolutely nothing that states Uub was anywhere near Pure Buu in power. In fact Goku's base isn't even significantly damaged from him, well even damaged at all. We see his clothes slightly tattered from being smashed into the ground, but he comes up unscathed.
Fox666 wrote:It seems you have pissed a lot of people on this forum, and I am quite sure they would like to call you stupid and say that's the designated adjectives for you. But they don't do that because of there are rules in this community.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
Goku said that someone else besides Goku, Vegeta, Boo, Goten or Trunks could win the tournament.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
Yes, if that someone happened to be as strong as Pure Boo. However Oob didn't, so Goku decided to go train him.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Goku said that someone else besides Goku, Vegeta, Boo, Goten or Trunks could win the tournament.
Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
I may've explained my point in a more complicated way than I wanted, but I'm not complicating things.Piccolo Daimao wrote:I think it's you who's complicating things, because to me and others, it seems relatively simple.
- You: SSJ3 is achievable only for the dead and fusions. I really don't find sense in this.
Me: It all depends on one's power. Seems like Dragon Ball alright to me.
Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
I would say it's a little of both. It's only possible for the dead or fusions because of the power that you need. I think someone stated before that the only reason Goku got it was because, when he was dead, he basically had limitless power and stamina. Meanwhile, Gotenks is a fusion, and can basically pull huge amounts of power out of his butt, at the expense of time.hleV wrote:
- You: SSJ3 is achievable only for the dead and fusions. I really don't find sense in this.
Me: It all depends on one's power. Seems like Dragon Ball alright to me.
Rocketman(In response to a post about Pandora's Box) wrote: I sat here for ten damn minutes wondering what the hell God of War had to do with any of this.
Youtube | Art/Animation BlogInsertclevername wrote:I plan to lose my virginity to Dragon Box 2.
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Piccolo Daimao
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Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
Wait, what? I never said that last part.hleV wrote:I may've explained my point in a more complicated way than I wanted, but I'm not complicating things.Piccolo Daimao wrote:I think it's you who's complicating things, because to me and others, it seems relatively simple.
- You: SSJ3 is achievable only for the dead and fusions. I really don't find sense in this.
Me: It all depends on one's power. Seems like Dragon Ball alright to me.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.
Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
Well, personally, I don't think so. I wouldn't really be surprised if one day they'll be an official statement that he did manage it, but right now, I doubt it. At least this what I got from the story. It's been made clear that Goku had been bored the last 10 years and I doubt that would have been the case had Vegeta reached a level where he could offer Goku the challenge he had been looking for.
Also, it's not unlikely that Vegeta might have toned down the obsessive training regime. I've sorta always assumed that that speech he gives for Goku at the end was him also coming to terms with not being as good as him. It didn't even mildly bother him that Goku flew off with Uub instead of fighting him. Similar to all the other former rivals, once they accept the fact that they can't catch up with Goku, the difference in power becomes greater. So he might not have felt the need to push himself like that anymore.
Also, it's not unlikely that Vegeta might have toned down the obsessive training regime. I've sorta always assumed that that speech he gives for Goku at the end was him also coming to terms with not being as good as him. It didn't even mildly bother him that Goku flew off with Uub instead of fighting him. Similar to all the other former rivals, once they accept the fact that they can't catch up with Goku, the difference in power becomes greater. So he might not have felt the need to push himself like that anymore.
Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
That was my comment.Piccolo Daimao wrote:Wait, what? I never said that last part.hleV wrote:I may've explained my point in a more complicated way than I wanted, but I'm not complicating things.Piccolo Daimao wrote:I think it's you who's complicating things, because to me and others, it seems relatively simple.
- You: SSJ3 is achievable only for the dead and fusions. I really don't find sense in this.
Me: It all depends on one's power. Seems like Dragon Ball alright to me.
Because Goku wasn't staying on Earth for only 24 hours that time.Michsi wrote:It didn't even mildly bother him that Goku flew off with Uub instead of fighting him.
Re: Did Vegeta eventualy reach SSJ3?
The old Vegeta would have never accepted being ignored like that, is what I'm saying. If Vegeta entered the tournament to fight Goku, he didn't act like it.hleV wrote:Because Goku wasn't staying on Earth for only 24 hours that time.Michsi wrote:It didn't even mildly bother him that Goku flew off with Uub instead of fighting him.