Question About the Sound Effects in DBZ

[TheBlackPaladin]

Okay, so, here's something I've noticed for a while, but never really bothered to ask until now. In watching the dub of DBZ--especially the HD audio tracks found on the Blu-Rays--I've noticed that the sound effects sound so much better in the dub. They're the same sound effects as the original Japanese version, of course, but they sound so much more clear, present, and crisp on the dub track. It strikes me as odd, because on the Japanese audio track, everything sounds so muffled. Why is there such a difference in sound quality of the sound effects between the two tracks?

Having read Kei's threads where he compared the Dragon Box audio to the original broadcast audio, I know that Toei didn't hold on to the original materials. So, inevitably, the materials they used for home releases--and for that matter, the materials they sent off for international dubs which were of even lesser quality--aren't as good as the original materials. That would imply that everything would be of lesser quality, though...the sound effects, the music, the dialogue, everything. So how is it that they were able to get the sound effects to sound so good on the dub tracks and not on the original Japanese audio tracks? Or for that matter, if they could get the sound effects to sound good, why not the Japanese music or the Japanese dialogue? For THAT matter, who's "they" here...did FUNimation remaster the sound effects themselves, or did Toei?

I assume the difference in quality is due to some sort of technical limitation, but I'm curious to know what it is.

[Perfect]

Maybe Toei kept the SFX audio on separate tapes from the dialogue like the music often was, and they gave it to FUNi?

[Pokewhiz7]

I think I remember Barry Watson saying that they remastered the sound effects for GT, at least.

[KiddoCabbusses]

I'd assume FUNi remastered the SFX track if that is the case.

It probably wouldn't be too difficult to do, considering a lot of the SFX might be fairly stock for anime productions from pre-DB to post-DB - simply get the original sounds and re-sync them to the episodes. A lot of "Classic DBZ" sound effects can probably be heard with great sound quality in products that predate FUNi's "remastereds", including audio CDs and video games ranging from the PC-Engine CD to the PS2 games they were directly involved in and afterward.

Theoretically they could also have done similar with the music that was released in CD album form or the Japanese Laserdiscs of the movies, but it doesn't seem like they ever managed to get the latter, at least...

[Gonstead]

Too bad we couldn't of gotten a better sounding audio for the original Japanese mono.

I should revive my Dragon Box vs Original Broadcast Audio topic sometime but I need more audio from kei17 for me to do that.

[jpdbzrulz4sure]

If I remember correctly, Kei said that while the vocal tapes were discarded after everything was mixed into the master tape, the music and SFX tapes were kept, and given to dubbing companies in the form of M.E. tapes (M.E. stands for "music and effects"), and as such, they weren't plagued with the muffled optical sound that the non-original run Japanese audio is.

[kei17]

If I remember correctly, Kei said that while the vocal tapes were discarded after everything was mixed into the master tape, the music and SFX tapes were kept, and given to dubbing companies in the form of M.E. tapes (M.E. stands for "music and effects"), and as such, they weren't plagued with the muffled optical sound that the non-original run Japanese audio is.

Those M.E. tapes contain both the music and SFX mixed into one track, but it seems that Toei sent FUNi two different kinds of tapes; SFX-only 6mm tapes and music-only 6mm tapes. I guess FUNi ordered them as well as M.E. tapes because they were planning to replace the score. Interestingly, however, they seem to no longer have the music-only 6mm tapes of early episodes in Z, since the music and SFX are both mixed on the English-Kikuchi mix 5.1ch track in those episodes (FUNi also have the M.E. tapes of all episodes. India imported DBZ from FUNi and they used good-sounding M.E. tapes). Maybe it's just that Toei didn't send them the music-only tapes of early episodes to FUNi from the beginning, though.

[jpdbzrulz4sure]

Those M.E. tapes contain both the music and SFX mixed into one track, but it seems that Toei sent FUNi two different kinds of tapes; SFX-only 6mm tapes and music-only 6mm tapes. I guess FUNi ordered them as well as M.E. tapes because they were planning to replace the score. Interestingly, however, they seem to no longer have the music-only 6mm tapes of early episodes in Z, since the music and SFX are both mixed on the English-Kikuchi mix 5.1ch track in those episodes (FUNi also have the M.E. tapes of all episodes. India imported DBZ from FUNi and they used good-sounding M.E. tapes). Maybe it's just that Toei didn't send them the music-only tapes of early episodes to FUNi from the beginning, though.

Got'cha.

[kei17]

One thing bothering me is that I don't know why the music-only tapes tend to sound worse than the SFX-only ones do. In some episodes of FUNi's 5.1ch track, the music sounds almost like crap though the SFX still sound good.

*Edit: I forgot to answer the original question of this topic. International dubs always sound better than the Japanese audio that is currently available on any official releases because those dubs use magnetic audio tapes provided by Toei. Toei kept such good-sounding magnetic tapes without any voices for their international business, but discarded the mixed-into-one-track master tapes of the original Japanese version and kept only the bad-sounding optical audio on the soundtrack film negatives. It is really sad and ironical that some completely shitty dubs like the Serbian dub sound a lot better than the original version.

[TheBlackPaladin]

And that, folks, is why I love Daizex! Thanks so much.

[MCDaveG]

International dubs always sound better than the Japanese audio that is currently available on any official releases because those dubs use magnetic audio tapes provided by Toei. Toei kept such good-sounding magnetic tapes without any voices for their international business, but discarded the mixed-into-one-track master tapes of the original Japanese version and kept only the bad-sounding optical audio on the soundtrack film negatives. It is really sad and ironical that some completely shitty dubs like the Serbian dub sound a lot better than the original version.

I got completely upside down thing with French DVD's of Saint Seiya (TOEI), where Japanese audio is in stereo and good quality, but French audio is mono and sounds like crap. Don't know how that happen.

[TheBlackPaladin]

International dubs always sound better than the Japanese audio that is currently available on any official releases because those dubs use magnetic audio tapes provided by Toei. Toei kept such good-sounding magnetic tapes without any voices for their international business, but discarded the mixed-into-one-track master tapes of the original Japanese version and kept only the bad-sounding optical audio on the soundtrack film negatives. It is really sad and ironical that some completely shitty dubs like the Serbian dub sound a lot better than the original version.

I got completely upside down thing with French DVD's of Saint Seiya (TOEI), where Japanese audio is in stereo and good quality, but French audio is mono and sounds like crap. Don't know how that happen.

Well, that could be because the French dubbing company was guilty of what Toei is normally guilty of--they didn't hold on to their original audio. Also, if I recall correctly, the French dub of Saint Seiya was never uncut. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that while France did get an uncut release of Saint Seiya, it was just that, an uncut release, not an uncut dub. Much like the uncut French release of DBZ, for all of the scenes that were censored in the original dub, the French audio track temporarily switches over to the Japanese audio track and with French subtitles until the originally-censored scene ends. It's quite possible that the technical hassle of having to do that may be the reasoning behind using low-quality tapes.

Also, sometimes Toei does keep their original materials. I believe Kei mentioned that they held on to their original materials for "Sailor Moon," because those episodes got a release on laser disc before DVD. Perhaps it was a similar case with "Saint Seiya" (aka the anime that could have been huge in North America and wasn't because DiC made a terrible dub that appealed to practically no one).

[kei17]

I got completely upside down thing with French DVD's of Saint Seiya (TOEI), where Japanese audio is in stereo and good quality, but French audio is mono and sounds like crap. Don't know how that happen.

Are you talking about the original TV series in the 80s? If so, that cannot be true since it aired around the same time as the original DB did. Maybe you are referring to movies. Can you show me some examples? I'm quite curious about that.

[Pokewhiz7]

Kei, if the M.E. tapes are one track, how did they do a 5.1 mix?

[kei17]

Kei, if the M.E. tapes are one track, how did they do a 5.1 mix?

As noted above, FUNimation imported SFX-only and music-only tapes, too. I am not sure that Toei themsleves still store them, but it is possible because I heard that their Laser Disc releases of some old TV series contained a music-only track in every episode like DBZ movies. Maybe they thought such tapes were worth storing for their international sales, since replacing original scores used to be a common practice in some counrtires, and SFX-only tapes would be helpful in that case.

[Puto]

It's also useful for censorship, so you can cut out scenes and not have the music skip about or the sound effects desync.

[jpdbzrulz4sure]

It's also useful for censorship, so you can cut out scenes and not have the music skip about or the sound effects desync.

Makes sense to me.

[MCDaveG]

I got completely upside down thing with French DVD's of Saint Seiya (TOEI), where Japanese audio is in stereo and good quality, but French audio is mono and sounds like crap. Don't know how that happen.

Are you talking about the original TV series in the 80s? If so, that cannot be true since it aired around the same time as the original DB did. Maybe you are referring to movies. Can you show me some examples? I'm quite curious about that.

Sure, the main series. I can upload some mp3 sample after work.

[TheBlackPaladin]

It's also useful for censorship, so you can cut out scenes and not have the music skip about or the sound effects desync.

Makes sense to me.

Even without the syncing issue, I would think there's another use for it in the realm of censorship, and that would be the removal or replacement of certain sound effects. As most of you know, on cable television, we're not allowed to see guns in children's animation. However, laser blasters, fantasy weapons which (obviously) don't exist (yet), are perfectly permitted. 4Kids has gotten around the issue of guns by not altering the visuals, but replacing the sound effects of the bullets with the sound effects of laser blasts.

[MCDaveG]

Well, in the end it's mono. The Japanese track is that far superior to the French one, that last time I was watching it on TV, I thought it's stereo in comparison to that horridness the AB Groupe released.
This French track is the same one I remember from TV when I was watching it as a kid, so I think they simply put the sound from TV version on the R2 DVD footage.
I recorded Japanese and than the French.

http://www.mediafire.com/?7b5rk4b4yw9la32