SSJ3 - An incomplete form?

[ItsAllGood]

I've been considering this for a while now.

Once Goku and Vegeta accessed the USSJ forms, they both realized that it reduced speed while granting vastly increased power. Trunks was the last to realise this (albeit in a painful way). In essence, Goku and Vegeta felt this form did not give a tactical advantage over Cell as it was incomplete, and not without flaws.This led them to believe that there was a more balanced form, just over the horizon, which as we know resulted in the FPSSJ form.

Now take the SSJ3 form. While Goku and Vegeta quickly realized the drawbacks associated with USSJ and opted to perfect the SSJ form, why did Goku not realise that the SSJ3 form was, in a sense, incomplete as well? Vegeta himself had witnessed Goku's rapid power drain whilst fighting Buu, which should have sent alarm bells ringing in his mind regarding SSJ3's drawbacks.

What I cannot fathom is that Goku was quick to realise the drawbacks of the USSJ forms, instead looking at options such as FPSSJ, but failed to realise that SSJ3 had very similar drawbacks, drawing obscene amounts of power (as opposed to the massive speed loss within the USSJ form) over a short period of time.

If this pattern was to be expected when accessing higher SSJ forms, why did the idea of SSJ3 being incomplete not occur to Goku as his energy was rapidly sapped away while fighting Buu? Obviously he would be looking at the tactical advantage and opted for a quick fight using this form, but a seasoned warrior such as Goku would be quick to realise the flaws. Even Goten and Trunks were able to access this form, with their energy running out at a crucial juncture.

So, with 2 characters able to access this form and Goku and Vegeta's history of recognizing drawbacks in different forms, I think its a large oversight on their behalf to not notice the significant drawbacks in SSJ3 and instead optimize the form through additional training.

Thoughts?

[Saiga]

Goku achieved the form in the afterlife, and had no idea of the drawbacks because of that. When he was on Earth, he assumed the difficulty was due to how new he was to using it. It was only when he was in a living body, fighting Kid Boo that he realized how extreme the drawbacks were.

[Fox666]

For the matter the Super Saiyan 2 also has drawbacks and seems to drain a fair amount of energy.

[Bussani]

Now take the SSJ3 form. While Goku and Vegeta quickly realized the drawbacks associated with USSJ and opted to perfect the SSJ form, why did Goku not realise that the SSJ3 form was, in a sense, incomplete as well? Vegeta himself had witnessed Goku's rapid power drain whilst fighting Buu, which should have sent alarm bells ringing in his mind regarding SSJ3's drawbacks.

I think it's like Saiga said: Goku didn't have the same problems with Super Saiyan 3 when he used it in the afterlife. He tells Vegeta this later when he finds he can't sustain the form.

Chapter: 513 (DBZ 319), P1.2
Context: after Goku drops out of Super Saiyan 3
Goku: “Da-dammit…When I was dead, it was no problem at all…It seems that in the end, becoming a Super Saiyan 3 with a living body eats up an excessive amount of ki…”

As for no alarm bells ringing in Vegeta's head, he initially thought Goku was holding back for his sake, until Goku told him that wasn't the case and that Buu just wasn't giving him enough time to gather his ki to end the fight. I guess Goku's power didn't start dropping until he started doing that; that's the first time he mentions his power his failing, at least.

I'm not sure if Super Saiyan 3's problems are something that can be solved with training. It's possible that its drawbacks would always make it a gamble--at least with a living body.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

For the matter the Super Saiyan 2 also has drawbacks and seems to drain a fair amount of energy.

Where do we see it?

[Piccolo Daimao]

For the matter the Super Saiyan 2 also has drawbacks and seems to drain a fair amount of energy.

There's nothing stated about any drawbacks in Super Saiyan 2. Well, apart from the fact that Boo's shell filled up with energy faster than they'd expected, but Gohan put it down to the fact that, since they were both fighting as SS2s, the damage inflicted would be much greater, which doesn't necessarily imply that it drained them that much.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P6.1-2
Context: after Majin Boo quickly reaches full power
Kaioshin: “Th-that’s impossible…Wh-why has Goku’s damage energy [filled it up] already…!?”
Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If-if two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”

I would assume that it does consume a lot of energy, but it doesn't seem to be any more so than, say, regular SS before Goku and co. mastered it. Or at least, not much more so, and definitely not on the level of SSG2, SSG3 and SS3.

Also, @ItsAllGood, it was only SSG3 that was explicitly mentioned to reduce speed, which is why Vegeta decided not to use against Cell but still used SSG2. However, you could still say that SSG2 reduced speed somewhat, but just not in the drastically dangerous way SSG3 did. As in, both his power and speed increased, but there was an imbalance because his speed didn't increase as much as his power. I think Herms made some kind of Pokemon analogy that explained it pretty well.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

you could still say that SSG2 reduced speed somewhat, but just not in the drastically dangerous way SSG3 did.

Or maybe Grade 2 didn't increase speed at all, that's what I think.

[Piccolo Daimao]

you could still say that SSG2 reduced speed somewhat, but just not in the drastically dangerous way SSG3 did.

Or maybe Grade 2 didn't increase speed at all, that's what I think.

If that was the case, why would Vegeta notice the speed reduction in SSG3, but not SSG2? I know that it was more drastic and, therefore, more noticeable in SSG3, but I think it's more likely that he noticed that SSG2 increased both speed and power, neglected to see the imbalance and only noticed the crippling speed drawback in SSG3.

And it wasn't only speed that was the problem with the SS grades; it was energy consumption too. When Trunks fought Cell, speed was the only thing that was highlighted by Cell as the major problem, but alongside that scene (and perhaps after Trunks proved unable to hit Cell), Goku told Gohan in the RoSaT that it consumed a lot of energy as well, leading into his decision that regular SS was the best.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If that was the case, why would Vegeta notice the speed reduction in SSG3, but not SSG2?

Maybe he guessed that if he bullk up his body even more, he would loose his speed. Don't forget that he was once a space pirate, he has travelled all over the universe. Maybe he has seen fighters with great power, but terrible speed because they were too much like tanks. Or maybe he did achive Grade 3 and instantly understood it's advantages, like Goku.

[Piccolo Daimao]

If that was the case, why would Vegeta notice the speed reduction in SSG3, but not SSG2?

Maybe he guessed that if he bullk up his body even more, he would loose his speed. Don't forget that he was once a space pirate, he has travelled all over the universe. Maybe he has seen fighters with great power, but terrible speed because they were too much like tanks. Or maybe he did achive Grade 3 and instantly understood it's advantages, like Goku.

It's pretty much implied that Vegeta reached SSG3, but chose not to use because of its disadvantages. Also, it'd be weird if both Gokuu and Trunks (the youngest and most inexperienced of the three who didn't realize the flaws of SSG3) reached SSG3, but Vegeta didn't.

Not to mention that bulk, no matter how much, doesn't automatically mean speed reduction. When Piccolo became a giant at the 23rd TB against Gokuu, he didn't get any slower. Same with Oozaru Vegeta against Gokuu. And there are tanks like Nappa and Recoom, the latter having beaten Vegeta to near-death.

[hleV]

Since I go by "the stronger you are, the easier it is to stay SSJ3", the only real unavoidable drawback of SSJ3 would be some sort of time consumption, as we've seen Goku losing much of his 24 hours of staying in the living world and Gotenks' fusion time being reduced to 5 minutes. Gotenks didn't seem to be suffering from SSJ3's energy drain.

And since SSJ3 multiplies strength 4 times (I'm fairly confident speed too), it's kinda worth using it as long as you can defeat the opponent relatively quickly. Same would go for SSJG2, I guess. I'm not dismissing the theory that FPSSJs could use the power of SSJ grades, which could one of the reasons why Goku didn't (need to) use SSJG2 against Cell.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

There's a difference between "flawed" an "inefficient".

Grade 3 provides a trade-off in physical strength versus everything else. It and Grade 2 are the only transformations not to give an overall power-up.

Super Sayain 3 gives all the usual power-ups a Super Sayain form is supposed to, it just drains too much energy to be used for long periods of time. See Goku's general hesitancy about using it. But as hlev pointed out, bring it out at the right time and it can still work as its supposed to.

[Pantalones]

I'm guessing Super Saiyan 3 is a form that needs to be "mastered" to get its full potential out, just like the original Super Saiyan form did but with a much more extreme disadvantage (to go along with the much more extreme power boost.) Whether that would open up the way to another even-stronger Super Saiyan form (not GT's "Super Oozaru 2" version of SSj4, but something different?) or just let you use SSj3 without draining your energy so quickly... that's hard to say. But apparently Goku never figured it out, at least as far as we're shown in the series (and definitely not during the Buu saga, at least.)

Goku does use SSj3 in GT though, and I don't remember hearing anything about it draining his energy too quickly then. Maybe he finally figured out how to "train away" SSj3's big disadvantage. Or Toei just forgot about it.

[Fox666]

you could still say that SSG2 reduced speed somewhat, but just not in the drastically dangerous way SSG3 did.

Or maybe Grade 2 didn't increase speed at all, that's what I think.

It does. It is quite obvious looking at Vegeta fighting Cell. Besides Trunks transformed in Grade II only to catch up with Cell in speed.

Other than that the Daizenshuu also states it increase both strength and speed.

And since SSJ3 multiplies strength 4 times (I'm fairly confident speed too), it's kinda worth using it as long as you can defeat the opponent relatively quickly. Same would go for SSJG2, I guess. I'm not dismissing the theory that FPSSJs could use the power of SSJ grades, which could one of the reasons why Goku didn't (need to) use SSJG2 against Cell.

I am not sure why Goku or Vegeta didn't use Grade II in the Cell Games, but I guess it's reasonable if we see characters choose not to transform in Super Saiyan 2 in the Majin Boo saga... and as far we know the drawbacks of Grade II is greater than Super Saiyan 2.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Goku does use SSj3 in GT though, and I don't remember hearing anything about it draining his energy too quickly then. Maybe he finally figured out how to "train away" SSj3's big disadvantage. Or Toei just forgot about it.

The GT Perfect Files still note the energy drain as a side effect of SS3. The form is actually worse in GT though because of his decreased stamina as a child being added on top of the forms original drawbacks. Episode time wise, he holds it for about 20 seconds at his first transformation in GT, and around 2 minutes during the second one I think.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Gotenks didn't seem to be suffering from SSJ3's energy drain.

Gotenks reverted to base before he ran out of fusion time, so assumedly, he did suffer from SS3's energy drain.

And since SSJ3 multiplies strength 4 times (I'm fairly confident speed too), it's kinda worth using it as long as you can defeat the opponent relatively quickly. Same would go for SSJG2, I guess. I'm not dismissing the theory that FPSSJs could use the power of SSJ grades, which could one of the reasons why Goku didn't (need to) use SSJG2 against Cell.

That was the entire problem. You can't hold SS3 as long as with the other SS forms. SS3's energy drain literally worked against him powering up, to the point that he couldn't even maintain it. The only time that we've seen something like is Goku's SS against #19, and that was because of a heart virus, which not even Senzu could cure. So unless you're using it against an opponent a good deal below you in strength, you're screwed.

And I see nothing to suggest that FPSS could use the power of the SS grades. It's simply SS at full power, but using much less energy than the SS grades (and probably even SS before its mastering). Despite being weaker than the SS grades, it's still more efficient than them because of its reduced energy strain, which is especially helpful against opponents like Cell, who can regenerate and whose energy consumption is seemingly on par with Goku's FPSS.

It would be much more harmful for Goku to go SSG2 and unload a bunch of ki trying to wipe out Cell with a Kamehameha, only for him to come back mostly fresh and subsequently Goku get his worn-out ass spanked even worse than before, rather than Goku use much less ki to destroy Cell, who'd still come back, but Goku would still have enough ki left in reserve to hold his own against Cell.

The other implied advantage of FPSS is being able to train for much longer, since you don't have as much energy strain, which is part (or entire) reason why Goku and Gohan became so strong. With Gohan, it was also that FPSS allowed him to release more of his dormant power. Could be the same for Goku, possibly being able to tap into more of his power by mastering SS and negating the straining effects that were shielding it, but I guess that's another matter and not really supported as much as Gohan. But it's worth thinking about, at least.

[Pantalones]

The GT Perfect Files still note the energy drain as a side effect of SS3. The form is actually worse in GT though because of his decreased stamina as a child being added on top of the forms original drawbacks. Episode time wise, he holds it for about 20 seconds at his first transformation in GT, and around 2 minutes during the second one I think.

Ah, okay. I haven't actually seen much of GT, so I couldn't remember if they actually brought up the energy drain or if it just wasn't enough because he needed SSj4 by the time he actually tried to use SSj3.

That was the entire problem. You can't hold SS3 as long as with the other SS forms. SS3's energy drain literally worked against him powering up, to the point that he couldn't even maintain it. The only time that we've seen something like is Goku's SS against #19, and that was because of a heart virus, which not even Senzu could cure.

So unless you're using it against an opponent a good deal below you in strength, you're screwed.

Yeah, SSj3's huge power boost and energy drain basically mean that you shouldn't use it unless you're fighting someone who's too strong for your SSj2 but still a lot weaker than your SSj3 (I think that's what the previous post meant by "it's worth using if you can finish the fight quickly"--you shouldn't go SSj3 if you only end up equaling your opponent, only if SSj3's boost lets you quickly overpower them.) Unfortunately for Goku, nobody in that range ever really shows up, since Cell and Dabura were weak enough for the SSj2s to deal with and all the Buus are "if you aren't as strong as SSj3 Goku you're pretty much screwed" level or beyond (...though I guess he could've used SSj3 to really embarrass Vegeta during their SSj2 fight, if he had wanted to.)

[Piccolo Daimao]

That was the entire problem. You can't hold SS3 as long as with the other SS forms. SS3's energy drain literally worked against him powering up, to the point that he couldn't even maintain it. The only time that we've seen something like is Goku's SS against #19, and that was because of a heart virus, which not even Senzu could cure.

So unless you're using it against an opponent a good deal below you in strength, you're screwed.

Yeah, SSj3's huge power boost and energy drain basically mean that you shouldn't use it unless you're fighting someone who's too strong for your SSj2 but still a lot weaker than your SSj3 (I think that's what the previous post meant by "it's worth using if you can finish the fight quickly"--you shouldn't go SSj3 if you only end up equaling your opponent, only if SSj3's boost lets you quickly overpower them.) Unfortunately for Goku, nobody in that range ever really shows up, since Cell and Dabura were weak enough for the SSj2s to deal with and all the Buus are "if you aren't as strong as SSj3 Goku you're pretty much screwed" level or beyond (...though I guess he could've used SSj3 to really embarrass Vegeta during their SSj2 fight, if he had wanted to.)

Yep, that's right. I think that dead SS3 Goku would have a chance at defeating Fat Boo, but Boo's a unpredictable motherfucker who can regenerate from almost everything, so I guess there's no way to know for sure.

[Son_Gohan]

I think you're getting the misconception that SSG2 & SSG3 or FPSSJ are entirely new forms when they're only variations of how to power up the original.

Therefore, there's no correlation with SSJ3 which is a distinct form itself. SSJ3's drawbacks appear to be something inherent to the state. The diminishing gains serving as an indication that they've reached the peak in amount of power they could physically contain. Its chapter debut was named "The Limit!! Super Saiyan 3".

Gotenks doesn't exhibit the same stamina issues when using the form like Goku does. But his fusion time was decreased substantially from it. No amount of training could really overcome that.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think you're getting the misconception that SSG2 & SSG3 or FPSSJ are entirely new forms when they're only variations of how to power up the original.

No, we're not. We understand that they're still just regular SS. What would make you think that?

Gotenks doesn't exhibit the same stamina issues when using the form like Goku does.

He does, although not to the extent of Goku. He reverts to normal before he ran out of fusion time. His stamina issues are probably on par with dead SS3 Goku (at least, on his day in the living world)'s, as both are on borrowed time.