What Would You Have Added/Changed?

[Piccolo Daimao]

I'm calling bullshit on the pacifist part. That was the only time since he started fighting that he displayed that kind of attitude. Before that he wanted to fight.

Well, you know what I mean. Although it is true that his pacifist moment was bullshit. Even in the Freeza arc, he still didn't hold back and struck out at enemies like the Ginyu Force and Freeza. And yet, in a battle that's even more important than those, he just lets himself get the shit beaten out of him without launching more than one kick.

What's the point? He's given it everything he's got by that point. Cell's beaten him into the ground and there's nothing he can do but tap into his hidden power, but he doesn't know how and he's scared. He knows if he doesn't find out quick, everyone's blood is going to be on his shoulders. Charging recklessly at Cell as opposed to finding a way to use his hidden power is not a better option; even if he is pissing his pants scared.

I believe that SS Gohan was slightly stronger than Cell at that point, and judging by him dodging for most of the battle and expressly telling Cell that he didn't want to fight, it was a combination of him not wanting to fight Cell at all and being somewhat afraid of his hidden power. But I don't know what he had to be afraid of, since it's not like he couldn't control his power to the level that he injured his friends or destroyed the Earth when he became enraged before. He wasn't Oozaru (which he didn't even know about). Gohan's dormant power always helped the Z-Warriors. Goku and everyone else on Earth were relying on him to defeat Cell, so it really would've been better to "fight and die" then "just dodge and die".

Like you said, Gohan doesn't know how to tap into his hidden power. It's not that he'd have been charging recklessly. Goku wanted him to fight, figuring that eventually, Cell would somehow piss him off enough that Gohan would unleash his hidden power. Or perhaps Goku knew that Gohan would pussy out after all and count on that. Either way, actually fighting him would've been better than practically letting himself get beaten up. It took his friends getting beaten up and potentially killed because of his inability to rage and the merciless death of an Android who'd given him words of wisdom in his fear and panic to finally push him over the edge.

[Perfect]

No Gohan wasn't anywhere near Cell's level, especially if you go by dodging. Goku dodged some of Cell's attack, does that peg Goku as stronger? No, not even a little. Cell had the upperhand most of the way through, he was just toying with him after all. Plus he had a plethora of suppressed power to use if he needed it. Gohan got a good old fashioned ass woopin'.

On page 197 of the kanzenban, Cell out maneuvers Gohan and slams his head into his head.
On page 198-200, Cell slams Gohan in the face with a vicious punch and forces him into the distance until he smashes into some rocks.
On page 207, Gohan gets slammed in the jaw from a fierce punch by Cell.
On page 210, Gohan is elbowed in the head and kicked into the distance.
On page 212-213, Gohan surprises Cell with a kick in which Cell mocks soon after.
On page 217, Cell bear hugs Gohan, squeezing the life from him.

Then come the Cell Juniors and all that stuff. He would be charging recklessly if he tried to fight Cell any further, he landed one good hit on him and then got decimated a few pages later. Every effort Gohan made was wiped off and met with an even stronger retaliation by Cell. It wouldn't be better to fight and die, seeing that if he'd get too injured there'd actually be a chance that he'd die quickly. Whereas if he didn't, he'd have time to figure out how to coax the power out of him. It's just a better strategy, seeing that fighting and getting hurt isn't going to make him transform.

[Saiga]

It's subjective as to whether Gohan was above Cell or not. Judging how unfazed he was by Cell's kick, and how Cell said he was going all out in speed, I'd say that Gohan definitely was before he pussied out.

[Perfect]

Which kick? Cell's boasting after every attack; and no, it's stated his speed increases when he powers up later.

[Fox666]

Before Gohan transformed in Super Saiyan 2, neither him or Cell fought seriously, so we don't know what could happen. But it's not out of question that Gohan was, in fact, the better of the two.

After Gohan neglected his training for 7 years, he still had an even fight with Dabra, who according to Goku is probably about as strong as Cell. Even if Cell was somewhat stronger than Dabra, the difference would be negligible. So I don't think Cell was supposed to be in a different league of a full-power Super Saiyan.

And I think that overall, Cell was never displayed to be much better than a full-power Super Saiyan. He had some playtime with them, and was completely out-classed by a Super Saiyan 2.

[Saiga]

Which kick? Cell's boasting after every attack; and no, it's stated his speed increases when he powers up later.

Nope.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

From Hermes' strength checker. It's before he powers up. And the kick I'm talking about was the one that Piccolo said killed Gohan, until Gohan came out with a bloody forehead undeterred.

[Perfect]

Not taking it seriously? He squeezed the life out of Gohan, causing Piccolo and Goku to react in such a way that they were going to intervene. They both may have been playing around at the start, but when it came to that particular point in the story, Cell was quite clearly outclassing the boy. Granted that doesn't say he wasn't in an entirely different league, just stronger and able to smash him into the ground. Gohan more or less just gives up on himself because he knows he won't win without tapping into his hidden power, but he's scared and unaware of how to. When Gohan gets smashed into those rocks, he ends up scuffing it off with a slight injury on his forehead. He begins to take things up a notch, getting "serious", only to continuously be out classed by Cell. Dragon Ball's not this complex series where you have to over analyse everything to understand it, it's pretty much what's there on the surface. There's no indication of Gohan being stronger at this point. He retaliates and momentarily surprises Cell, only to cause him to boast further and hit back twice as hard. The situation was growing more hopeless by the second. As the Cell Juniors come into the picture, Gohan begins to get scared, because as he puts it, there's nothing he can do to help but unleash his power.

Cell's power and speed greatly increased and even made Goku shudder, indicating he was far above the state Goku and Gohan's SSJ forms were. That also proves to show that Cell was toying with Gohan the entire time until that point, in which he's decimated in two blows. The rest is Gohan making him suffer, etc.

If we add the out of context situation of Dabra, Goku merely estimates Dabra's level around Cell's level with no real effort. He pretty much just says, "Yeah he's probably around Cell, who cares, he's weak", as opposed to, "This guy seems to be just as strong as Cell was, I wouldn't take him lightly", or, "This guy's just as strong as Cell, but there's no need to worry".

Gohan had gotten significantly weaker, and we don't know if he was at SSJ or SSJ2 against him. Regardless of which, Gohan had as I've stated, gotten significantly weaker and therefore by that logic should place Dabra below Cell. Granted that's not really relevant seeing that it doesn't contribute to Cell being stronger than Gohan's SSJ form during the Cell Games.

@Saiga

That could simply be referring to the fact he's going all out in the speed he has without powering up. In fact, that is the case seeing that if it were taken as you've said, the story and further statements would be contradicted. First the following lines are stated:

Tenshinhan: "You mean Cell hasn't been taking serious up to now?!"

Vegeta: "I-Is he saying he's going to raise his power even higher?!"

---Break---

Piccolo: "It's like the whole universe is shaking!"

---Break---

Cell: "How's that? This is me, when I mean business!"

Gohan: "What of it?"

---Break---

Trunks: "H-He's fast!"

Vegeta: "His power isn't the only thing he raised!"

No matter how you interpret this, it's still implied his speed increases. Cell increasing his power would be a foolish mistake that he actually doesn't make until later on. His speed is implied to increase simply through the story's mechanics, seeing that powering up simply doesn't cover just power. Nothing ever implies that aside from Vegeta and Trunks sacrificing speed for power, which is blatantly pointed out by Cell as being a novice move. He also has confidence he can win at this point, meaning there'd be no reason for him to blindly make such a move, at least not until later. I mean there's more evidence towards it, but I don't think it has to be said.

If it didn't affect him, he would've been able to stop his momentum. He came out staved with an attitude, you can tell just by how he starts taking things seriously from that point, see Gohan's kick to Cell for further evidence (he wasn't playing around from that point onward). Goku also remarks that Gohan's on his way to unleashing his power or something of the matter at that point, etc.

[Saiga]

Trunks: "H-He's fast!"

Vegeta: "His power isn't the only thing he raised!"

Where is this stated? It seems weird that this would be left out of the strength checker if it was stated in the manga.

[Rocketman]

Vegeta: "His power isn't the only thing he raised!"

Bow-chika-wow-wow.

[Perfect]

Trunks: "H-He's fast!"

Vegeta: "His power isn't the only thing he raised!"

Where is this stated? It seems weird that this would be left out of the strength checker if it was stated in the manga.

It isn't. It's from the anime, I probably should have clarified, but it doesn't matter seeing that logically his speed should have increased from that sort of power up. Look at Goku and Krillin's comments:

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P8.2-4
Context: after Cell powers up
Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”
Kuririn: “Th-this ki is so astounding, it’s like the entire Earth is shaking.”
Gohan: “What’s the big deal?”

There's no question his chi's increased, as stated. When one's chi rises, naturally so does their speed and power. Not one or the other, otherwise everyone would just look back to the situation with Trunks, "What's the big deal that he's so strong? He can't hit him after all!" Toei was able to figure this out by just reading it. Plus I highly doubt Toriyama would make Cell confidently make the exact same mistake he made him make out of blind rage a little while later, especially seeing the actual process of sacrificing speed for strength as opposed to one just powering up.

Edit:

Compare the two:

[Fox666]

There's no indication of Gohan being stronger at this point. He retaliates and momentarily surprises Cell, only to cause him to boast further and hit back twice as hard. The situation was growing more hopeless by the second. As the Cell Juniors come into the picture, Gohan begins to get scared, because as he puts it, there's nothing he can do to help but unleash his power.

During the whole fight, Gohan was hesitating to fight, so there is no way to tell based on the fight itself. But I agree that there is nothing Gohan could do against all the Cell Jr.

If we add the out of context situation of Dabra, Goku merely estimates Dabra's level around Cell's level with no real effort. He pretty much just says, "Yeah he's probably around Cell, who cares, he's weak", as opposed to, "This guy seems to be just as strong as Cell was, I wouldn't take him lightly", or, "This guy's just as strong as Cell, but there's no need to worry".

Even if Goku was senile at this point in the story, all you are saying is that we can't rely on what the character themselves says.

[Perfect]

During the whole fight, Gohan was hesitating to fight, so there is no way to tell based on the fight itself. But I agree that there is nothing Gohan could do against all the Cell Jr.

Fair enough interpretation (granted I see it differently), as long as we agree that against Cell and all the Cell Juniors, it'd be hopeless, then we're on equal terms with my original argument in one way or another.

Even if Goku was senile at this point in the story, all you are saying is that we can't rely on what the character themselves says.

No I don't believe Goku was ever really senile in Z, at least not until the last Tenkaichi we see. I'm just saying we have to take it for it is, a rough guess.

[Fox666]

It isn't. It's from the anime, I probably should have clarified, but it doesn't matter seeing that logically his speed should have increased from that sort of power up.

Or not... he simply revealed all of his Ki.

There's no question his chi's increased, as stated. When one's chi rises, naturally so does their speed and power. Not one or the other, otherwise everyone would just look back to the situation with Trunks, "What's the big deal that he's so strong? He can't hit him after all!" Toei was able to figure this out by just reading it. Plus I highly doubt Toriyama would make Cell confidently make the exact same mistake he made him make out of blind rage a little while later, especially seeing the actual process of sacrificing speed for strength as opposed to one just powering up.

I really doubt Toei would look at such details, considering how many blatant plot holes it created. And this is just that, another plot-hole from the anime.

[Perfect]

Or not... he simply revealed all of his Ki.

Because there's an indication he was using that chi beforehand? There's an indication characters can use their full power without powering up?

I really doubt Toei would look at such details, considering how many blatant plot holes it created. And this is just that, another plot-hole from the anime.

It's something so blatantly obvious, even they couldn't screw it up.

[Saiga]

The anime shouldn't be used for evidence without clarifying. I couldn't give two shits about what the anime says, going from the manga the only thing we are given about Cell's speed is that he is going all out. It isn't really a stretch at all that he was going all out in speed, and when he powered up he was only raising his strength. We aren't told otherwise, so that's a safe assumption. Given that Cell uses his power weighted form soon after, it's clear that he values strength more than speed anyway.

[Perfect]

Nothing implies what you're saying though. Generally when a user powers up to their max, their speed increases. We see this with Freeza for instance, only Vegeta could track his movements to the fullest. There's nothing that implies Cell's speed wouldn't increase. Gohan logically shouldn't have been afraid because his over all power was still greater. Everyone else should be scared for Gohan, and they are. If Cell merely increased strength, why would even Goku be wavering? What would be the point if he couldn't catch Gohan, who had a substantial speed increase from SSJ2?

[Saiga]

Nothing implies what you're saying though. Generally when a user powers up to their max, their speed increases. We see this with Freeza for instance, only Vegeta could track his movements to the fullest. There's nothing that implies Cell's speed wouldn't increase. Gohan logically shouldn't have been afraid because his over all power was still greater. Everyone else should be scared for Gohan, and they are. If Cell merely increased strength, why would even Goku be wavering? What would be the point if he couldn't catch Gohan, who had a substantial speed increase from SSJ2?

Cell saying he is going all out in speed does imply that it wouldn't increase later, however. And there isn't a reason for anyone to be wavering when Cell powers up anyway as they should be able to sense that Gohan's ki is greater than Cell's.

[Perfect]

Actually it doesn't, specifically because we think Cell's at his full power at that point in the story. He's going at the full speed of his current chi being displayed, which would be his max until he were to power up, like any character in the series. That can simply be attributed to the fact Gohan wasn't displaying as much chi (attacking in bursts like Goku did on Namek to the Ginyus), hence why Cell was so confident and everyone was scared.

[Fox666]

No I don't believe Goku was ever really senile in Z, at least not until the last Tenkaichi we see. I'm just saying we have to take it for it is, a rough guess.

Everything all characters say are just guesses, since by definition a guess is just a belief or speculation. As long as a character is only using his sensorial perception, he is limited to guessing.

So I don't see why dismiss what Goku said. He was just making an estimative based on his experience on battles or Ki. Which is not different from all instances which characters detect the Ki of someone else.

Because there's an indication he was using that chi beforehand? There's an indication characters can use their full power without powering up?

I guess so. Goku was at 5,000 against the Ginyu Tokusentai, but they couldn't do anything against him. Another example is when the followers of Freeza attacked Trunks while his battle power was still at battle power of 5. I don't think they could just attack from behind and kill Goku or Trunks instantly.

It's something so blatantly obvious, even they couldn't screw it up.

Most of Toei plot-holes are blatantly obvious...

[Saiga]

Actually it doesn't, specifically because we think Cell's at his full power at that point in the story. He's going at the full speed of his current chi being displayed, which would be his max until he were to power up, like any character in the series. That can simply be attributed to the fact Gohan wasn't displaying as much chi (attacking in bursts like Goku did on Namek to the Ginyus), hence why Cell was so confident and everyone was scared.

Not really, his quote quite blatantly states that he's holding back in strength/power so we know he isn't at full power. It's the only line we get about his speed, that he's going all out. The most simple explanation is that he is using the entirety of his speed and powers up in strength later on.