What Would You Have Added/Changed?

[Perfect]

Everything all characters say are just guesses, since by definition a guess is just a belief or speculation. As long as a character is only using his sensorial perception, he is limited to guessing. So I don't see why dismiss what Goku said. He was just making an estimative based on his experience on battles or Ki. Which is not different from all instances which characters detect the Ki of someone else.

There's a clear difference in casually saying, "a is probably around b" as opposed to being confident and serious about it. Especially when said person implies he really doesn't care seeing it should be an easy victory.

I guess so. Goku was at 5,000 against the Ginyu Tokusentai, but they couldn't do anything against him. Another example is when the followers of Freeza attacked Trunks while his battle power was still at battle power of 5. I don't think they could just attack from behind and kill Goku or Trunks instantly.

He was attacking in bursts, which wasn't anywhere near his maximum. Logically you can mask what you're actually displaying, however that doesn't imply you're using your maximum strength or speed, or even that you can. There'd be no point in powering up if that were the case.

Most of Toei plot-holes are blatantly obvious...

Yup to the average fan at least. However, this is as obvious as Cell being weaker than Gohan; which evidently I'd place as even more blunt than the more obvious of plot holes.

Not really, his quote quite blatantly states that he's holding back in strength/power so we know he isn't at full power. It's the only line we get about his speed, that he's going all out. The most simple explanation is that he is using the entirety of his speed and powers up in strength later on.

When does he state he's holding back his strength against Gohan as opposed to toying around with him? At what instance does that ever occur? Nothing ever implies a maximum attribute in that category can ever be used to the fullest without powering up. If he knows Gohan's faster, then there'd not only be no point in being confident or powering up, but no point in Toriyama showing he's making the same mistake Trunks did.

[Saiga]

When does he state he's holding back his strength against Gohan as opposed to toying around with him? At what instance does that ever occur? Nothing ever implies a maximum attribute in that category can ever be used to the fullest without powering up. If he knows Gohan's faster, then there'd not only be no point in being confident or powering up, but no point in Toriyama showing he's making the same mistake Trunks did.

With this quote:

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

So apart from speed, he's not going all out.

[Perfect]

When does he state he's holding back his strength against Gohan as opposed to toying around with him? At what instance does that ever occur? Nothing ever implies a maximum attribute in that category can ever be used to the fullest without powering up. If he knows Gohan's faster, then there'd not only be no point in being confident or powering up, but no point in Toriyama showing he's making the same mistake Trunks did.

With this quote:

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

So apart from speed, he's not going all out.

I. What would be the point, if any that Cell were to be addressing his speed in retrospect to his absolute power as opposed to his current state's?
II. We still don't know Cell's holding back at this point, at least not in the respect that'd it'd be significant for a power up.
III. Why would everyone be afraid of Cell and fear for Gohan? If Gohan's fast enough and Cell didn't increase his speed, why would anyone be worried at all?
IV. Why would Toriyama create a situation where it's specifically referenced that his strength was the only thing upgraded later on instead of then?

That quote proving anything you've said has about as much bite behind it as Freeza letting on that he was using his maximum power before actually doing so.

[Fox666]

He was attacking in bursts, which wasn't anywhere near his maximum.

If that was true, the moment Jhess or Batta attacked he would have been killed at 5,000 since he would be unable to see their movements.

There'd be no point in powering up if that were the case.

From a real life perspective, no. But it is similar to how character yell technique names all time, supposedly it works by intimidating the opponent while some readers might doubt its effect.

[Perfect]

If that was true, the moment Jhess or Batta attacked he would have been killed at 5,000 since he would be unable to see their movements.

Refer to masking and attacking in higher bursts than masking not equal to full power. It's a pretty simple mechanic actually.

From a real life perspective, no. But it is similar to how character yell technique names all time, supposedly it works by intimidating the opponent while some readers might doubt its effect.

Nothing implies Cell was trying to intimidate him as opposed to actually killing him.

[Fox666]

Refer to masking and attacking in higher bursts than masking not equal to full power. It's a pretty simple mechanic actually.

You lost me.

Nothing implies Cell was trying to intimidate him as opposed to actually killing him.

So does every time Goku waste 10 seconds yelling "Kame... Hame... Haaa!!"...

Another example is Vegeta doing that massive power-up in front of Goku. He was already above Goku, whom battle power was "over 16,000", so how could he increase his power so much if we know his total is limited to "barely 18,000"? The answer is that his battle power has always been 18,000 and the only difference is that Goku never sensed it before.

[Perfect]

Oh I suppose that can be attributed to the fact I worded it awkwardly, though I thought it was still perceptible.

Elaboration:

Masking and attacking in bursts higher than what you're masking is not the same as masking and using full power, if that's even possible. Masking also seems to come as just a cover if you will, hence masking, as opposed to what you're actually displaying. Think of it this way, one's simply just masking what they're using and attacking in bursts when compared. One could also attack in higher bursts without actually masking.

Well when Goku does so against Cell, he's actually trying to make him buy into thinking he's going to blow the Earth up to beat him. That or he was simply charging the blast enough so it'd kill Cell; it's likely a combination of the two.

I'm afraid I don't understand the Vegeta example, at all. Why wouldn't Goku sense it? There's no reason for him not to. A power up's a power up, regardless of the increase, if that's what you're getting at.

Edit:

Goku (suppressed): 5,000
Full power: 8,000 (technically over, Vegeta's not specific)
Kaio-ken x2: 16,000
Kaio-ken x3: 24,000
Kaio-ken x4: 32,000

Vegeta: 18,000

We could just assume that Vegeta was at a latent 16,450 or any other number around there, seeing he was barley able to overcome the attack. During this point of the series, every different thousand of a degree in battle power makes a huge difference. Powering up between 1-2,000 could easily turn the tides and be completely plausible. Vegeta was getting worried by his sudden jump in power, which he probably assumed as static (causing him to power up). It clearly prompted him to kick it up a notch seeing that if Vegeta were so much above 16,000, he would've dodged the hit from Goku's charge. Hell Goku's around 8,000 so we can assume that Vegeta was somewhere around there too, 10,000-16,450, we don't really know.

It seems like a huuuuge stretch to just say power ups are used to intimidate people when there's clear evidence contradicting it.

[Monkey D Goku]

If I were to given the chance to add or change anything I would probably just continue the story after Goku trains Uub. Instead of going the the (makes no sense) Gt route I would have gone the dragonball online route and added things from the timeline like goku and vegeta apparently dying in space somewhere, Mr. Buu making Boobie, Goten and trunks creating their new school along with Tien and Krillin. Pretty much would have started a new series based off Dragonball online and then just show a new ending where you get a quick flash back of Raditz to Kid Buu. Then showing how the humans have progressed eding off with a statue of Goku, Vegeta and Hercule .

[paperbowser]

Refer to masking and attacking in higher bursts than masking not equal to full power. It's a pretty simple mechanic actually.

You lost me.

Nothing implies Cell was trying to intimidate him as opposed to actually killing him.

So does every time Goku waste 10 seconds yelling "Kame... Hame... Haaa!!"...

Another example is Vegeta doing that massive power-up in front of Goku. He was already above Goku, whom battle power was "over 16,000", so how could he increase his power so much if we know his total is limited to "barely 18,000"? The answer is that his battle power has always been 18,000 and the only difference is that Goku never sensed it before.

Judging from your posts, you seem to have a trend of making trivial arguments enforcing propositions that the series never implies outside of the speculations of the stubborn fans. Aren't you embarrassed?

It's funny how you'd assume something like power ups are meaningless, there's absolutely no basis for it. There's no sign of Cell not gaining any speed, it seems to be a very clear indication that he was going all out through the amount of power he was showing.

Anyways, in response to the actual topic. Out of the things I'd change in the series- I'd probably make it so Goku jumps to Super Saiyan 3 during his fight with Freeza, rather then just ascending to a practical "Super Saiyan 1" transformation. I'd also make it so that Vegeta destroys the Earth in the Saiyan Ark, and forces Goku to escape in a Saiyan Space Pod back to Planet Namek. Then Goku would just encounter Freeza and kill him after he transforms into a Super Saiyan 3.

[Fox666]

Masking and attacking in bursts higher than what you're masking is not the same as masking and using full power, if that's even possible. Masking also seems to come as just a cover if you will, hence masking, as opposed to what you're actually displaying. Think of it this way, one's simply just masking what they're using and attacking in bursts when compared. One could also attack in higher bursts without actually masking.

Unfortunately, I still can't understand what you are saying. My whole point is that while the Scouter or Vegeta and the others can only detect Goku at 5,000 his strength is 90,000 (since Ginyu estimated it at 85,000 while fighting Goku).

It seems like a huuuuge stretch to just say power ups are used to intimidate people when there's clear evidence contradicting it.

I don't see why. During the whole series we see characters using much more power than expected based on the Scouter or their Ki.

The Earthlings are surprised that Vegeta and Nappa survived from Kuririn attack. Goku can defeat the Ginyu Tokusentai while he is still at 5,000. After Cell absorbed No.17, Vegeta is confident he can defeat him despite being unable to see his movements or scratching him. Etc.

[Perfect]

Masking - Hiding something

Goku was masking his battle power, hiding it, suppressing it. This can be interpreted in two ways:

a. Goku was attacking in bursts, similar to using the Kaio-ken against Freeza.

b. Masking one's battle power is simply suppressing it to the reader (Freeza, person b, etc.), however there's much more going on under that suppression that they can act on (which is not by any means their full power)

I don't see why. During the whole series we see characters using much more power than expected based on the Scouter or their Ki.
The Earthlings are surprised that Vegeta and Nappa survived from Kuririn attack. Goku can defeat the Ginyu Tokusentai while he is still at 5,000. After Cell absorbed No.17, Vegeta is confident he can defeat him despite being unable to see his movements or scratching him. Etc.

I don't see how that even remotely relates to power ups being used as a form of intimidation, as opposed to what they actually are, raising one's level of chi. Trunks powers up and his chi is clearly said to raise, Goku powered up in front of the scouter, clearly showing his chi raising, etc. There's tons of examples that prove the characters power up for the sake of revealing their true strength, which can also be used as a form of intimidation in combination, but not alone.

[Fox666]

Judging from your posts, you seem to have a trend of making trivial arguments enforcing propositions that the series never implies outside of the speculations of the stubborn fans. Aren't you embarrassed?

Based on your first post you choose to attack my person instead of using real arguments, I doubt you will stay long here. I suggest you to grow up a little.

It's funny how you'd assume something like power ups are meaningless, there's absolutely no basis for it.

You even read my post?

There's no sign of Cell not gaining any speed, it seems to be a very clear indication that he was going all out through the amount of power he was showing.

But Cell said himself he was going to use all of his speed when he started to fight with Gohan...

[Perfect]

Cell stated he was going to use all the speed in his current state from what the reader interprets. He also stated that he was going to power up and grow past the warm up with Goku, but that was contradicted by letting on that he had more strength and speed available later on; much like this situation. Logically Cell should have more speed via powering up, the story's context implies such.

[Saiga]

I. What would be the point, if any that Cell were to be addressing his speed in retrospect to his absolute power as opposed to his current state's?
II. We still don't know Cell's holding back at this point, at least not in the respect that'd it'd be significant for a power up.
III. Why would everyone be afraid of Cell and fear for Gohan? If Gohan's fast enough and Cell didn't increase his speed, why would anyone be worried at all?
IV. Why would Toriyama create a situation where it's specifically referenced that his strength was the only thing upgraded later on instead of then?

That quote proving anything you've said has about as much bite behind it as Freeza letting on that he was using his maximum power before actually doing so.

I. He's boasting about how he's still got strength in reserve.
II. No we don't, but in hind sight it seems pretty clear.
III. I've already explained it doesn't make sense for them to be afraid anyway. And they wouldn't know if Cell was gotten faster or not from him powering up.
IV. I'm not really sure what you're getting at, but out of universe points don't matter.

[paperbowser]

Judging from your posts, you seem to have a trend of making trivial arguments enforcing propositions that the series never implies outside of the speculations of the stubborn fans. Aren't you embarrassed?

Based on your first post you choose to attack my person instead of using real arguments, I doubt you will stay long here. I suggest you to grow up a little.

It's funny how you'd assume something like power ups are meaningless, there's absolutely no basis for it.

You even read my post?

There's no sign of Cell not gaining any speed, it seems to be a very clear indication that he was going all out through the amount of power he was showing.

But Cell said himself he was going to use all of his speed when he started to fight with Gohan...

Are you having a bit of trouble comprehending English? He's implying that one could attack in higher bursts relevant to their actual unmasked power. You're inferring that powering up is exclusive to intimidation- which is contradicted by several factors. The grades of a Super Saiyan proves that wrong.

[Perfect]

I. What would be the point, if any that Cell were to be addressing his speed in retrospect to his absolute power as opposed to his current state's?
II. We still don't know Cell's holding back at this point, at least not in the respect that'd it'd be significant for a power up.
III. Why would everyone be afraid of Cell and fear for Gohan? If Gohan's fast enough and Cell didn't increase his speed, why would anyone be worried at all?
IV. Why would Toriyama create a situation where it's specifically referenced that his strength was the only thing upgraded later on instead of then?

That quote proving anything you've said has about as much bite behind it as Freeza letting on that he was using his maximum power before actually doing so.

I. He's boasting about how he's still got strength in reserve.
II. No we don't, but in hind sight it seems pretty clear.
III. I've already explained it doesn't make sense for them to be afraid anyway. And they wouldn't know if Cell was gotten faster or not from him powering up.
IV. I'm not really sure what you're getting at, but out of universe points don't matter.

I. If he's boasting about strength he has in reserve then he'd refer to strength. Nothing suggests he's using his speed in regard to his absolute power, only his un-powered up state.

II. That's subjective to the reader.

III. It does make sense based on what I've stated, it completely contradicts your idea. When one generally powers up in a typical fashion like Cell did, both speed AND power increase. Such examples are littered throughout the series. Nothing states Cell's referring to his absolute power in reserve.

IV. Technically in this case, it does matter. Because it's in direct contradiction with your idea, that specific story reference wouldn't have been made and called on to make note of it, if it'd already happened in hindsight with no indication of it. Freeza for instance at 50%, powered up to 100%, increasing his speed and strength. Piccolo who's slow when compared to #17 quite easily, power ups increasing both his strength and speed. Every instance shows an increase on both sides. There's no inclination that Cell would be using every bit of his max speed beforehand when compared to his absolute power. I doubt he'd be able to use his absolute speed without being able to transform anyway, it seems very well implied it's in regard to his suppressed form.

[Fox666]

Are you having a bit of trouble comprehending English? He's implying that one could attack in higher bursts relevant to their actual unmasked power. You're inferring that powering up is exclusive to intimidation- which is contradicted by several factors. The grades of a Super Saiyan proves that wrong.

I can more-or-less comprehend English, but I can't comprehend your arguments (probably because you barely use any argument at all).

a. Goku was attacking in bursts, similar to using the Kaio-ken against Freeza.

But then, how Goku can dodge when Ginyu attacked him from behind?

b. Masking one's battle power is simply suppressing it to the reader (Freeza, person b, etc.), however there's much more going on under that suppression that they can act on (which is not by any means their full power)

Wouldn't that mean that Piccolo and the others never used all of their power against Nappa, since Vegeta didn't note any change in power when he was using the Scouter again?

I don't see how that even remotely relates to power ups being used as a form of intimidation, as opposed to what they actually are, raising one's level of chi. Trunks powers up and his chi is clearly said to raise, Goku powered up in front of the scouter, clearly showing his chi raising, etc. There's tons of examples that prove the characters power up for the sake of revealing their true strength, which can also be used as a form of intimidation in combination, but not alone.

Oh well, we disagree on that and I think we will end up walking in circles from here on. So it would be better if we move from this subject.

[Saiga]

I. If he's boasting about strength he has in reserve then he'd refer to strength. Nothing suggests he's using his speed in regard to his absolute power, only his un-powered up state.

II. That's subjective to the reader.

III. It does make sense based on what I've stated, it completely contradicts your idea. When one generally powers up in a typical fashion like Cell did, both speed AND power increase. Such examples are littered throughout the series. Nothing states Cell's referring to his absolute power in reserve.

IV. Technically in this case, it does matter. Because it's in direct contradiction with your idea, that specific story reference wouldn't have been made and called on to make note of it, if it'd already happened in hindsight with no indication of it.

I. It's completely open to interpretation whether his speed is regards to his current suppressed level, or his full power. Nothing suggests he's referring to his suppressed state either.

II. Everything we're talking about here is subjective to the reader.

III. It's never stated that Gohan is somehow masking his ki as a SS2 and using it in bursts. There isn't a single statement like that. It doesn't contradict my idea at all. Typically when people power up they increase in every aspect, but if Cell is already using his full speed it won't go up when he's powering up, because it is already at maximum.

IV. Out of universe points just aren't helpful in In-universe arguments.

[paperbowser]

Are you having a bit of trouble comprehending English? He's implying that one could attack in higher bursts relevant to their actual unmasked power. You're inferring that powering up is exclusive to intimidation- which is contradicted by several factors. The grades of a Super Saiyan proves that wrong.

I can more-or-less comprehend English, but I can't comprehend your arguments (probably because you barely use any argument at all).

How so? You "argue" that powering up is used for intimidation, and not in any context making a person stronger. Because apparently, you assume that everybody's at their full strength and that they're just hiding it. There are various factors that disprove your theory, Fox. I don't see how I'm the one not putting up a valid argument. Care to interpret?

[Fox666]

You saying I am wrong doesn't prove I am wrong. Try again.