What Would You Have Added/Changed?

[paperbowser]

You saying I am wrong doesn't prove I am wrong. Try again.

Vegeta powered up so he could defeat Semi-Perfect Cell. Piccolo also noted that his power kept growing. Why can't you understand a simple concept?

[Fox666]

That is a transformation, not a power-up. What's your point, pal?

[Perfect]

But then, how Goku can dodge when Ginyu attacked from behind?

I'm afraid you're going to have elaborate here, I don't quite understand.

Wouldn't that mean that Piccolo and the others never used all of their power against Nappa, since Vegeta didn't note any change in power when he was using the Scouter again?

It could be they were using most all of it from the start or something of that magnitude. Technically his scouter should have gone off when a single chi blast was thrown right? Maybe it was only set to detect high levels? Shouldn't his scouter have also picked up on Nappa powering up? Or any attacks that Nappa threw at them?

Oh well, we disagree on that and I think we will end up walking in circles from here on. So it would be better if we move from this subject.

Oh I suppose so.

I. If he's boasting about strength he has in reserve then he'd refer to strength. Nothing suggests he's using his speed in regard to his absolute power, only his un-powered up state.

II. That's subjective to the reader.

III. It does make sense based on what I've stated, it completely contradicts your idea. When one generally powers up in a typical fashion like Cell did, both speed AND power increase. Such examples are littered throughout the series. Nothing states Cell's referring to his absolute power in reserve.

IV. Technically in this case, it does matter. Because it's in direct contradiction with your idea, that specific story reference wouldn't have been made and called on to make note of it, if it'd already happened in hindsight with no indication of it.

I. It's completely open to interpretation whether his speed is regards to his current suppressed level, or his full power. Nothing suggests he's referring to his suppressed state either.

II. Everything we're talking about here is subjective to the reader.

III. It's never stated that Gohan is somehow masking his ki as a SS2 and using it in bursts. There isn't a single statement like that. It doesn't contradict my idea at all. Typically when people power up they increase in every aspect, but if Cell is already using his full speed it won't go up when he's powering up, because it is already at maximum.

IV. Out of universe points just aren't helpful in In-universe arguments.

I. Sure it is, but that's denoted by the large fact that powering up tends to increase both sides. Goku and everyone also assumed his speed would have increased based on their reactions, which I would say happened for a reason.

II. Not everything after all, it isn't subjective Cell was giving Gohan a hard time and then Gohan made a comeback and tortured him.

III. Somehow? That's what Goku did on Namek and what Trunks did Freeza. It's simply just that Cell's chi was so large that it overshadowed what Gohan was putting off, fooling everyone. Cell is using his full speed in respect to his suppressed form, I still don't see how he'd be able to access his full speed when he needs a ridiculous power up like that to even access his reserves in any respect, especially seeing a power up isn't just x and y, it's the whole alphabet.

IV. It does in this case.

[paperbowser]

That is a transformation, not a power-up. What's your point, buddy?

No, it's a power-up used in a different context; but it still refers to the same thing. Vegeta received that newly found strength as the result of powering up, it isn't considered a transformation as "Super Saiyan 2" is. They power themselves up and become power-weighted- as a result they're stronger. To prove you wrong, Freeza took several minutes powering up to reach 100% so that he could fight at his full strength. Why are you so hesitant to admit that you're wrong?

[Fox666]

Why don't you say I am wrong 1,000 times to see if it comes true?

[Saiga]

I. Sure it is, but that's denoted by the large fact that powering up tends to increase both sides. Goku and everyone also assumed his speed would have increased based on their reactions, which I would say happened for a reason.

II. Not everything after all, it isn't subjective Cell was giving Gohan a hard time and then Gohan made a comeback and tortured him.

III. Somehow? That's what Goku did on Namek and what Trunks did Freeza. It's simply just that Cell's chi was so large that it overshadowed what Gohan was putting off, fooling everyone. Cell is using his full speed in respect to his suppressed form, I still don't see how he'd be able to access his full speed when he needs a ridiculous power up like that to even access his reserves in any respect, especially seeing a power up isn't just x and y, it's the whole alphabet.

IV. It does in this case.

I. That's an assumption to say that Goku and co assumed that Cell would get faster. All we get from the scene is that Cell got more powerful and they reacted to that power.

II. That's not what we're discussing though. We're discussing whether Cell's quote was about his absolute full speed or his suppressed full speed. Either way it's subjective.

III. Goku and Trunks weren't in a SS2 form when they did that though. They were both in base. I don't see how it makes sense to say how Cell can be going all out while holding back. That's an oxymoron.

IV. It never does. If the discussion is in regards to in-universe, then out of universe points should be left out. Otherwise every discussion could just end up being "x happened because of the plot".

[paperbowser]

What don't you say I am wrong 1,000 times to see if it comes true?

Because that's irrelevant to our argument. Why are you straying off-topic? You argued that their strengths are always at their fullest, and that powering up is used as strictly means of intimidation; only to be disproved.

[Perfect]

I. You're forgetting Gohan's displayed speed faster than Cell's in his SSJ2 state.

Think of it this way:

Cell suppressed speed - 5
SSJ Gohan speed - 4
SSJ2 Gohan post transformation - 16
Cell post power up - 16.1
SSJ2 Gohan actual speed - 32

II. You stated everything, that's insidiously broad in itself.

III. It wouldn't matter if they were transformed, nothing states so. Uhm I hate to break it to you, but Freeza did just that. One requires a power up to unleash their full power. The user is simply unleashing their max based on the suppressed state.

IV. It's important because even in story, it wouldn't make sense. It works for both out and in story.

[Fox666]

Because that's irrelevant to our argument, and "comes" is used improperly. Why are you straying off-topic? You argued that their strengths are always at their fullest, and that powering up is used as strictly means of intimidation; only to be disproved.

Criticizing my grammar? And wants to talk about irrelevance or off-topics? You are such an hypocrite.

And what argument you have? Super Saiyan Grade II is a transformation according to the guidebooks. And Freeza control his power completely different from the Earthlings.

Now you are going to admit YOU are wrong, you stubborn fan making trivial arguments enforcing propositions that the series never implies outside of the speculations? Aren't you embarrassed?

[paperbowser]

Because that's irrelevant to our argument, and "comes" is used improperly. Why are you straying off-topic? You argued that their strengths are always at their fullest, and that powering up is used as strictly means of intimidation; only to be disproved.

Criticizing my grammar? And wants to talk about irrelevance or off-topics? You are such an hypocrite.

And what argument you have? Super Saiyan Grade II is a transformation according to the guidebooks. And Freeza control his power completely different from the Earthlings.

Now you are going to admit YOU are wrong, you stubborn fan making trivial arguments enforcing propositions that the series never implies outside of the speculations? Aren't you embarrassed?

I criticized your grammar, but I still managed to stay on topic whereas you made a post that did nothing of that sort. Freeza was at his final transformation, and he powered up just as any other character would to become stronger. I don't see your point as to how he controls his power completely different considering he was already in his final form. You make no sense at all.

[Fox666]

Read the manga, pal. Are you prepared to admit you are wrong?

[paperbowser]

Read the manga, pal. Are you prepared to admit you are wrong?

If you've had an argument, then I'd have to wonder why you aren't being specific. My thoughts exactly- you're a troll. Nothing more.

[Fox666]

You didn't had an argument when you started, so we are even now.

And since all of your posts until now are includes offenses at some degree, I can guess who the moderators will think is the troll.

[Perfect]

I think I'll go ahead and wrap up this argument.

Manga -
Cell is shown to have a greater chi than SSJ Gohan, upon un-suppression; beforehand is a mess of subjective interpretation.

Anime -
The same thing aside from it being outwardly stated Cell has more speed, shattering a lot of interpretation and subjective mannerisms.

Going back to the original argument:

Regardless of whether or not you believe Cell is stronger than Gohan at that point, he does for sure find the situation hopeless when the Cell Juniors are released. I think that's about all I have left to say.

[paperbowser]

You didn't had an argument when you started, so we are even now.

And since all of your posts until now are includes offenses at some degree, I can guess who the moderators will think is the troll.

How are all the posts I've made up until now offensive? For instance I've said a few posts ago:

I criticized your grammar, but I still managed to stay on topic whereas you made a post that did nothing of that sort. Freeza was at his final transformation, and he powered up just as any other character would to become stronger. I don't see your point as to how he controls his power completely different considering he was already in his final form. You make no sense at all.

There's nothing offensive about what I said. I do have an argument; you don't. My argument is proven by Freeza powering up to 100%.

[Saiga]

I. It doesn't matter that Gohan has already shown he's faster than Cell. Absolutely nothing shows Cell getting faster, so the Z fighters wouldn't even know.

II. I said everything we were talking about here.

III. It does matter, because we're given no indication that someone can mask their power while transformed. There's also really no reason to assume that Gohan was masking his power without any statements made about it. What did you mean about Freeza? And it's still an oxymoron because Cell mentioned going all out in speed, so he can't be holding back his speed.

The anime doesn't shatter any interpretations because the anime doesn't count.

And yes, the situation is hopeless when the Cell Juniors are released but by that point Gohan has already completely lost his spirit.

[Fox666]

How are all the posts I've made up until now offensive? For instance I've said a few posts ago:

I criticized your grammar, but I still managed to stay on topic whereas you made a post that did nothing of that sort. Freeza was at his final transformation, and he powered up just as any other character would to become stronger. I don't see your point as to how he controls his power completely different considering he was already in his final form. You make no sense at all.

There's nothing offensive about what I said. I do have an argument; you don't. My argument is proven by Freeza powering up to 100%.

Ad Hominems are not arguments, pal. And saying you prove something doesn't make it so.

[paperbowser]

How are all the posts I've made up until now offensive? For instance I've said a few posts ago:

I criticized your grammar, but I still managed to stay on topic whereas you made a post that did nothing of that sort. Freeza was at his final transformation, and he powered up just as any other character would to become stronger. I don't see your point as to how he controls his power completely different considering he was already in his final form. You make no sense at all.

There's nothing offensive about what I said. I do have an argument; you don't. My argument is proven by Freeza powering up to 100%.

Ad Hominems are not arguments, pal. And saying you prove something doesn't make it so.

So you're saying that despite Freeza reaching his final form, he's the only one that can increase his strength by powering up? No, what I'm saying is that you're being irrational.

[Perfect]

Okay, I guess that isn't all I have left to say, round 2; fight!

I. Gohan's only shown he's faster in his SSJ2 state. The Z-senshi could easily assume seeing that power ups are generally proportionate in attributes.

II. We've talked in a wide variety, you're not helping yourself here.

III. We're given no indication that being transformed would be an issue in the slightest when masking it down. The user may not be able to mask it to zero, because mathematically that wouldn't make sense, but there should be very wide ranges where it's acceptable. We don't need a statement when everyone's thinking Cell > Gohan. Again you act as if it's a fact that he's going "all out" in terms of his absolute power, which you stated was subjective; contradicting yourself much? He can easily be holding back speed in relativity to his absolute power. Freeza was able to suppress his power and go "all out" based on that percentage.

No you see, the anime doesn't count to you. You also jump to conclusions way too easily. I was speaking in retrospective to how they compared, maybe you should actually take the time to think before posting in reply to something that simple. I'm not stating it shatters the manga's canon of interpretations, but the manga's interpretations implied to the anime as it's its own canon.

Your last sentence was completely redundant.

[Fox666]

So you're saying that despite Freeza reaching his final form, he's the only one that can increase his strength by powering up? No, what I'm saying is that you're being irrational.

Will you keep repeating yourself over a dead subject? I tought me and Perfect made an agreement. (And I really doubt the reason has been any close to you in this thread)