The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Silkman3003]

It's literally times like this where I wish Mr. Toriyama would at least make up a chart of power levels(or something good) showcasing how strong each character was in the Buu arc, as well as the end of Z saga.

Clear cut answers, you know? I mean it's better than hypothesizing whether z characters max out in base or Ssj forms, or whether they really get much stronger during the 10 years.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's literally times like this where I wish Mr. Toriyama would at least make up a chart of power levels(or something good) showcasing how strong each character was in the Buu arc, as well as the end of Z saga.

Clear cut answers, you know? I mean it's better than hypothesizing whether z characters max out in base or Ssj forms, or whether they really get much stronger during the 10 years.

But if that had happened, then the fun of this thread would be all gone!

[Piccolo Daimao]

It's literally times like this where I wish Akira would at least make up a chart of power levels(or something good) showcasing how strong each character was in the Buu arc, as well as the end of Z saga.

Clear cut answers, you know? I mean it's better than hypothesizing whether characters get stronger or not, whether they max out in base or Ssj forms, or whether they really get much stronger during the 10 years.

Except that it clearly wasn't that important to him (and probably shouldn't be to us) and battle powers were thrown out post-Freeza because the Saiyans and Freeza weren't around anymore, he knew how out-of-hand the power progression had gotten, and that it was an inherently flawed system that served a short-lived purpose to show how stupid the bad guys were for relying on their scouters too much without learning ki control. Although I do agree that the power-scaling in the Boo arc was completely whacked.

And how much stronger characters get between time gaps depends on the plot. Vegeta jumps from transformed Zarbon's level to first-form Freeza's level in one Zenkai (that could hardly even be classed a Zenkai), so the readers would think that the heroes actually had a chance of defeating Freeza, only for Freeza to raise the stakes again by transforming and making Vegeta shit his pants. Piccolo jumps from base Saiyan level to Super Saiyan level just from 3 years training, so he could fight with Dr. Gero and still look important next to the Super Saiyans.

[Fox666]

The idea that "Gohan didn't neglect his training" in and of itself already makes me wonder if Toei's writers had paid any attention whatsoever to the manga.

In the end of the manga Gohan seems to be nowhere close to training, and the Daizenshuu points out that he is "far removed from battles". So I guess you are right on that.

[Saiga]

The idea that "Gohan didn't neglect his training" in and of itself already makes me wonder if Toei's writers had paid any attention whatsoever to the manga.

But maybe Gohan learned his lesson after the Boo saga? I know it says he's far removed from battles by the 28th Budokai, but that doesn't mean he can't just do regular training.

[Rocketman]

Gohan can never get any stronger than he is as Mystic. He has no more hidden power and his body is already in its prime.

[Fox666]

In the series we are contantly given points which a character reaches his limit, and all of a sudden gets a whole lot stronger than that.

Saichourou released Gohan's hidden potential, however we soon find out he has a whole new potential when he is angered. Rou Kaioshin releases even more than his hidden power, but that's too confusing to take any conclusion.

[Kaboom]

I think "dormant power" is something that everyone has some amount of at any given time, and it grows and replaces itself as one works their way into it through training. Certain methods may shortcut someone into getting that power all at once, and the Old Kaioshin's even gave Gohan extra power on top of it, but eventually some amount of "dormant" power would start to exist again. Gohan would probably still be able to get stronger, even if in something like a whole year he would only go from 5000 to 5001.

But regardless, he doesn't train unless there's a pressing need to do so, because he's Gohan. So if he did in GT, then it just shows all the more that GT's writers and guidebook-makers were on crack or something.

[Saiga]

But regardless, he doesn't train unless there's a pressing need to do so, because he's Gohan. So if he did in GT, then it just shows all the more that GT's writers and guidebook-makers were on crack or something.

It's not that outlandish an idea. Sure, he really slacked off during the Boo saga but with everything that happened after that I think it's reasonable for him to have decided it is best for him to keep up his training. In fact I'd say it was more likely with how he trained for the 25th Budokai and was worried about being surpassed by the boys. Obviously he doesn't need to worry about that as Ultimate Gohan, but nonetheless he has good reason to keep training.

[Pantalones]

Since Gohan kept training, it only makes sense that his base form is above his Mightiest of Warriors form from Z and that he simply regained SSjin and SSjin 2 on top of it from training IMO.

How the heck does it "make sense" that Gohan somehow figured out how to get Super Saiyan on top of his power-up from the old Kaioshin that works by replacing Super Saiyan forms, is outright stated to be better than any Super Saiyan form Gohan could use, and is activated in the exact same way?

Trying to make sense out of GT Gohan inexplicably going Super Saiyan is pretty much impossible beyond the obvious "Toei forgot/left out his new power-up in favor of Super Saiyan." At least assuming that he somehow lost his "mystic"/"ultimate"/etc. power-up (maybe it's temporary, or doesn't last if you die and get wished back afterward?) and now is forced to use plain ol' Super Saiyan again makes more sense than assuming he can somehow use his new power-up and an inferior power-up that was supposed to be completely replaced by his new power-up at the same time.

I guess it'd be possible for Gohan to become stronger by training, but the idea that he can use the old Kaioshin's power-up and Super Saiyan at the same time is about as absurd as saying he can go Super Saiyan 2 and then go regular Super Saiyan "on top of" his Super Saiyan 2 for an extra boost.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Maybe Gohan skipped training during the 10 years time-skip, but later, during the 5 years time-skip from Z to GT, Gohan restarted training because he lost his Ultimate power-up during the 10 years time-skip. So, he restarted training to get it back, assuming that he temporary lost it. It's also very likely that Gohan didn't have his Ultimate power-up, since Vegeta was stronger than him in GT (it was implied by Baby), and if Gohan could go Ultimate SSJ/SSJ2, he would be stronger than Vegeta for sure, IMO.

[Michsi]

I also agree that I don't find Gohan taking his training more seriously after the Buu fiasco to be so unlikely. Considering that he had been made aware of his mistake so clearly and that he seemed to display some shame because of it, I wouldn't be surprise if he learned his lesson about neglecting his fighting skills.

He'll probably never be as strong as he could be without dedicating himself to this life style like his father or Vegeta though.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think "dormant power" is something that everyone has some amount of at any given time, and it grows and replaces itself as one works their way into it through training. Certain methods may shortcut someone into getting that power all at once, and the Old Kaioshin's even gave Gohan extra power on top of it, but eventually some amount of "dormant" power would start to exist again. Gohan would probably still be able to get stronger, even if in something like a whole year he would only go from 5000 to 5001.

But regardless, he doesn't train unless there's a pressing need to do so, because he's Gohan. So if he did in GT, then it just shows all the more that GT's writers and guidebook-makers were on crack or something.

Agreed. I think that DB taught us that there literally are no limits in DB, as we see that characters constantly reach what even they think as the wall of their unbelievable power, only to break through it again. I don't think that a character's power can literally just skid to a stop. It's probably just that it'll be very hard to make any more than negligible increases if you're just going through your normal routine.

But I don't believe that Gohan would train when he doesn't even like fighting. It's not his fault that he has so much power within him on account of being a Saiyan-Earthling hybrid, so Gokuu shouldn't place the burden of Earth hero on him when it's clearly not in his ambitions. Gokuu may've even realized this, which is why he apparently moved his focus onto Goten and Trunks. And after Kid Boo was destroyed and Vegeta wanted to kill Fat Boo to remove any chance of him spawning another Boo, Goku complacently said that they can just train so that they won't lose even one-on-one.

Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4-5
Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”

was worried about being surpassed by the boys. Obviously he doesn't need to worry about that as Ultimate Gohan, but nonetheless he has good reason to keep training.

I doubt he was worried that much, and even so, it was treated in a somewhat humorous manner. But I don't think Gohan would be like Vegeta and train hard just to make sure that the boys didn't surpass him, since I doubt it matters that much to him. He's not a prideful person and wants to knuckle down on his education, not waste time doing something he doesn't want to trying to keep ahead of two boys.

But yeah, as you said, he wouldn't really need to worry about the boys surpassing him as Ultimate Gohan. He's stronger than a Super Saiyan 3, and it would take a loooooong way yet for the kids to even reach SS2, let alone SS3 (if they can). But since they don't have the battle heart of full-blooded Saiyans, like Goku and Vegeta, they probably won't.

[dprez]

Gohan can never get any stronger than he is as Mystic. He has no more hidden power and his body is already in its prime.

I'm not so sure. Everything that happens in Dragon Ball contradicts that.

[Rocketman]

His rage boosts, Super Saiyan, and zenkais are all gone because Mystic gives him total access to all that power.

[dprez]

His rage boosts, Super Saiyan, and zenkais are all gone because Mystic gives him total access to all that power.

Never stated you know.

Sure he may be at his total lifetime max power, but that just seams funny to me, that he literally cant get a single battle power point stronger...

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It's hard to picture Gohan being unable to grow stronger ever again.

But if that's true, then Vegeta's absolute max is very weak.

[Rocketman]

But if that's true, then Vegeta's absolute max is very weak.

Is it? His only superiors are magic and Goku, who has always been said to be the better of the two. He stomps all over the entire rest of the universe put together.

[Pantalones]

It's only directly said that Super Saiyan (activated the same way and overall inferior to the "mystic"/"ultimate" power-up) and possibly the near-death boosts (due to Buu noting that Gohan hadn't improved at all in power after being healed by Dende... though I don't know if he'd really qualify as "near-death" then, he just got beat up a bit and then healed as soon as he stayed on the ground for very long, I don't think he lost consciousness and I know he didn't have any really visibly serious damage to him) are gone after Gohan's last big power-up.

Of course, the near-death boosts have been so small as to not really matter for a long time before that point (except for Cell, but then again nobody else gets quite as near to death as he does, blowing up and only surviving by one little microscopic nugget of... internal stuff), and Gohan's Super Saiyan forms have been replaced by a better power-up. I'm not sure if he'd still get his boosts from anger like he did when he was a kid... did he ever even do that in the Buu saga before getting his last power-up? I seem to remember Gohan even saying at one point that he couldn't seem to draw on his anger like he did against Cell anymore.

I'm guessing it might be possible for Gohan's strength to change even after this power-up, but being that absurdly strong already, any gains in power would probably have to come pretty slowly unless he tries some sort of extreme training method again (and he's Gohan, so unless someone else pushes him to train or he has a really good reason beyond just keeping up his strength, I doubt he'd go searching for new training methods like Goku or Vegeta would.) So I guess you could say his power has "effectively" maxed out, since it's unlikely he'll ever get much stronger even though at least small gains are probably still possible if he tries really hard (but again, being Gohan I can't imagine him training hard enough to gain a lot of strength without someone like Goku or Piccolo pushing him to do so... maybe enough not to grow weaker, but that's about it.)

[Bussani]

Gohan's "rage boosts" were just his hidden power coming out when he got angry. The whole point of Elder Kaioshin's ritual was to bring all of Gohan's hidden power out once and for all.

Does that mean he could never get any stronger than that, though? That would require that you believe all the strength a person ever gains from training comes from power that's already there, but dormant. I don't believe that, personally; tapping into power you have but aren't aware of or can't access is just one way of getting stronger.