Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

[Perfect]

Technique restrictions sure, but that scan dictates Cell had access to his full power, wherever it's from. The filler transition took place roughly from a few days to a month of Cell's death.

[lash]

I've provided evidence towards my claim, unlike you here. The manga's time line is fine in terms of the planned out dates.

Don't see it. I already posted something against you in the first line of my last post.

Video games give Goku's one handed Freeza-defeating Ki bullet and Mr Satan's bomb set up a special name. I'm talking about official official material.

I already did in my second to last post. I'm not repeating myself.
->

I just ask you read everything carefully

Doesn't matter. Goku's gi could have been upgraded again after all those years.

Tao Pai Pai had very little Ki? What does that matter? His clothes were vaporized, he was not. If Ki encompasses the entire body along with the clothes as you're suggesting, his clothes wouldn't have been damaged just as he wasn't. The size of the Ki shouldn't change this assumption...unless it doesn't exist, yeah I guess it doesn't.

There's no proof Cell had any energy left after the attack. There's no suggestion Cell had power greater than Paikuhan's, ever. Like I said...quite a silly theory, but I guess anyone is entitled to it if they really like.

Transformations aren't techniques. They are evolutions, suppression releasers, or...just frankly something you transform into. There is no support saying all(some are different anyway)require energy in Dragonball.

I already went over why he administered a second and third hit in my last post.
Unless you're masking it...near death IS having Genki/Ki close to zero(of course "close to zero" would be dependent on the absolute power of the individual...but if the statement "near death" is applied, it obviously has to mean close to zero to the point your life is threatened(i.e <1)).
I'm sorry but RPG elements are pretty irrelevant to this case. It's not a video game.
It's suggested in the series when one's Ki is gone, they are essentially dead. So if one's Ki is nearly gone, they are nearly dead.

Recovery time is subjective and works perfectly for this argument seeing that it entirely depends on it

I fixed that for you in blue, and put in red the parts that shouldn't ever have been there in the first place when trying to make a sound and solid theory.
But yeah...you summed it up yourself. That's exactly why your theory comes across as silly.
As I've stated before it's pretty much equivalent to these:

'Guessing' Oolong did pushups everyday at the end of Z and acquired power greater than Super Vegetto after a week has as much credibility of your 'guess'.

If you're going to suggest something out of the ordinary to defend your favorite character, at the very least, have something really good to back it up. Otherwise you might as well go make a new topic stating Gregory is a mutant Saiyan from 5 million years ago as a reason why he can withstand 10x gravity, with the counter "We can still apply logic to scenes seeing that not every inch of filler is a plot hole". It's really as pointless and silly as that.

But I mean, as long as you realize that I have nothing more to argue with you about.


As for your example...I think we should try that again except with more accurate numbers.
Obviously Vegeta's max is far far more than double Kuririn's energy(which is a crucial element to your example).

Kuririn is officially stated at 75K.
Vegeta at that time is officially stated at 250K at least. So we'll use that.

Vegeta: 250K
Kuririn's blast(since he didn't charge it, nor was it an inconvenience for him to conjure together, let's just says it's exactly at his BP): 75K

Vegeta suppressed: >>>>60K(Vegeta said he'd lower his BP to the limit, Jheese can hurt a suppressed Vegeta. A 60K BP can clean up any Ginyu force member aside from Ginyu)

Going by your math: Vegeta after the attack would be( 250 -75) = 175K?

The guy still has plenty of Ki left to defeat the Ginyu force a million times over. So what happened to him?

I'll tell you what happened. It's called damage. Vegeta altered his Ki to be at a level Kuririn could hurt him. From that, the damage he continuously took(blood loss/pain) sapped out any remaining energy he had. Which eventually took out all his Ki and left him near death.

Two conditions with this when compared to Cell:
1) Cell didn't take continuous damage. As we see him falling into the needles, he isn't holding any area in agony(which should be his face) and he shows no sign of pain.
2) Stated in that filler(and many times later on) that there's no concept of 'time'(in regards to energy loss) in Hell or the afterlife. This is why SSJ3 does not get instantly worn out in the otherworlds. 'Recovery time' shouldn't exist in the first place for Cell in your argument.

The only thing I see left is that Paikuhan's attack defeated any energy Cell had in reserve. Therefore Cell was simply utterly and completely defeated. The lack of supporting evidence just continues to make the theory of "Cell's unshown/unimplied maximum > Paikuhan's attack > Suppressed Cell" all the more silly in my eyes.

It's not a stretch at all, especially since you didn't see the off panel battle. SSJ2 Gohan would have fought Dabra evenly in the beginning, worn both of them out a bit(but himself more), and Gohan would have reverted to his standard SSJ level continuing the fight as we saw it. This is supported by the fact that Goku states Gohan used up a tremendous amount of energy in his fight as he hands him a Senzu bean(see...this is an example of what actual supporting backup is when proposing a theory). That wouldn't be likely in the slightest if Gohan was fighting as a FPSSJ for that short amount of panel time all while not receiving a ton of damage by Babidi's statement.

Actually the manga is fairly consistent, it's just a matter of different characters giving different forms different names

Then at the end of everything all said...that's not consistent.
Also note, the Guidebooks don't actually have an inconsistency with Boo's names. They just categorize the Boos differently at times. Instead of giving him a seperate name of innocent Boo one time, they'll just call him regular old Majin Boo another time. Or just categorize Evil, Pure Evil, and Pure Majin Boo as all Majin Boo-evil (which makes sense considering that's exactly what they all are). Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Guess I'll still be waiting when you'll give a valid contradiction for the guidebooks.

[Perfect]

http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9633 as I've stated contains two time lines.

I don't see how video games aren't official, ain't my fault you're being insidiously broad.

I don't recall where that is, I have read things carefully, at the time they were posted. I barley remembered this thread existed until today, so if you don't want to repeat yourself, or rather quote yourself, that's your problem.

Nothing implies his gi was "upgraded". In fact you're being quite the hypocrite here. You're saying constantly that my theory is bullshit but yet here you are making up theories with absolutely no foundation.

I'm afraid the size or rather power of one's chi does matter. It's very easy to simply say the chi wave that hit him was enough to break through and damage his clothes, but not enough to harm him enough in a way that it'd be lasting.

Energy - The strength and vitality required for sustained physical or mental activity.
A feeling of possessing such strength and vitality.

Cell exhibited physical and mental activity more than once afterwards. Chi works in a similar way, Gohan was at zero, with a broken neck, unable to do next to anything, that's the only example we have of anyone at zero that didn't die or get knocked out, to my knowledge.

Transformations are techniques:

Technique - Skill or ability

Being able to transform is a skill/ability. Being able to move in the slightest requires "energy" and that energy in Dragon Ball is chi. Therefore even something as simple as a transformation should require energy.

I. I'm masking nothing. Near death isn't "close to zero", it's just low to the point of where it affects the user's overall performance (damaged organs, a hole inside them, damages beyond repair).

II. RPG elements? It was an analogy, I could have said a video game or given any similar account where someone loses a number in accordance to a larger number regarded by the same person but a different variable, all the more in the same context.

III. Considering when Gohan's neck was broken and his battle power dropped to zero it was said, "He's all but dead."

I'm afraid you're still incorrect here, as I've stated probably over, literally, 50 times now. The fact that something is completely possible, not easily dismissed and subjective does not make anything silly or comparable to what you've stated. Recovery time is subjective to perception and context, and from my point of view Cell should have been able to access his reserves granted some time seeing that he gradually becomes more and more tuned, seeing that he had far more energy when he was flung into the needles.

You do realize that using the numbers I did means absolutely nothing so long as the ones higher are higher and the ones lower are lower. I stated the damage he was taking from his injuries were the cause of his dropping battle power. So much for I'm the one that doesn't read. Anyhow, that actually hurts your argument seeing that Cell could easily have been swayed in the same way. Continuous damage from the attack could have easily made his battle power drop, as opposed to his attack being initially stronger than all his reserves and over powering it. In fact that's highly likely seeing that Cell was suppressed. If Cell was hit hard enough twice to be beaten then he'd clearly have taken damage that'd effect him for the time being. For instance if I break my bones, clearly it's going to be a long lasting injury. If I get smashed so hard that my bones crack or tendons snap or my organs get damaged, etc. I'm quite clearly taking continuous damage. Logically an attack that's more powerful than a person's suppressed battle power would inflict lasting damage. Plus, why would Cell be screaming that he's being flung in the air, not having any idea as to where he's going? He's quite clearly in pain from moving at all and likely disoriented. If there's no time in regards to energy loss, Cell would never recover, nor would Goku or Pikkon. You're misinterpreting it big time.

Again, we're back to theories that have no foundation, complete hypocrisy. There's absolutely nothing that implies what you're saying, not a single shred of evidence. By that logic, I can say that Cell broke out of jail and slammed Pikkon's face into the ground, but it was never mentioned again for some reason. Gohan is never shown to be fatigued to the point he'd need to take it down a notch, neither is Dabra. Goku never gives Gohan a Senzu Bean during or after his fight with Dabra either. Everything you've said is completely subjective based on interpretation and perspective, which you clearly stated was no grounds to make a serious theory.

The manga is consistent with characterizations upon what character would call and act upon names with Goku and co. on Majin Buu. Categorizing names differently in guides that are part of a series of guides is just that, inconsistent. I've stated valid contradictions, even Herms acknowledges there's errors in the books from time to time (somethin' like 40), they're not perfect. You can continue trying to rationalize stupidity, but it's only going to show you have no idea what you're talking about, which has been pretty consistent in the sense of your condescending "I'm right you're wrong attitude".

Edit: If you'd like a blatant error in one of them, Tenshinhan is listed as fighting #19 instead of #17.

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viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9633 as I've stated contains two time lines.

^?

Don't be difficult. You knew what I meant by official. And if you didn't, well now you know I meant official non-game supplemental information relevant to the anime or manga. Therefore my point still holds.

Then read it again.

No proof for what you're suggesting, and it would be contrary to what you're saying either way. You're essentially saying Ki surrounds the user's clothes one moment, then turning circles and saying only if they have enough Ki to do so will such a phenomenon happen. See where your argument is going? Your side ranter is also becoming very silly. Even excusing the absurdity of your counter, you also have the whole Recoome example you mentioned still lingering about which pretty much rips your theory(which I'm sure you'll probably excuse, say plothole, or deem a special case again of course). Guess it doesn't really matter either way.

Irrelevant. There are two types of energy in Japanese. For the one I'm discussing, it's about Genki/Ki and well being. When you're near death, your Ki is near or at zero. Gohan's example isn't even needed. Just take a look at Vegeta. If Vegeta can stand up while being near death, no reason why Cell can't wiggle his arms a bit as he is falling into some needles. Doesn't excuse that he had no Ki left to save himself as Vegeta had no Ki left to save himself from Recoome's eraser. So again, there is no evidence Cell had any energy just as there is absolutely no evidence Cell ever had any Ki greater than Paikuhan's. Theories without evidence are silly. "Silly theory is... silly theory".

Transforming isn't always moving, nor does it even always require such. If anything we're shown, transforming GIVES energy as Goku went from being unable to barely stand to being able to dodge a 100% Freeza's homing kienzan. So again, there's no evidence supporting that transforming requires energy. I'd recommend you just drop it already.

I. lol, I obviously meant masking Ki, not you...
And that would be near zero or at zero. Considering a battle power of 1 can sustain life just fine(i.e Gohan).

II. Sorry, but it was quite frankly a terrible analogy then.

III. No. His battle power was at zero. He was stated to be "just about dead".

The fact that something is completely possible, not easily dismissed

I guess that doesn't qualify your theory then. With no support or evidence, and everything being based subjectively I don't even see the point of you making the theory up in the first place, without a biased motive(overrating Cell). Might as well argue Post near death powerup Cell is stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but toyed with a crippled Gohan and never showed all his power reserves (or given the 'time')before he was defeated. I mean Cell didn't even need a senzu bean or much time if at all to fully recover, get a near death powerup, and come and blast Trunks in the chest in the mortal world. Nothing should be preventing him from dusting off the initial stun(which we are shown him doing as he is conscious afterwords) and going up and beating Paikuhan. He didn't. Therefore unless you have good evidence(which has been lacking this entire debate)he was exactly like Vegeta was after his fight with Recoome. Utterly defeated with no power left.

It does mean something. Because as I showed, Vegeta wasn't in the single digits. He was in the hundreds of thousands. Meaning, even taking into account Kuririn's attack, he logically should have still had more than enough power in reserve. And no, don't twist what you said to try and agree with mine now...

Plus Krillin didn't overpower Vegeta's reserves, he was unable to access it due to injuries.

...Is completely different than saying the damage he took from his injuries were the cause of his battle power drastically dropping.

And if you bothered to read(funny how it's your own advice I have to keep re-telling you), it doesn't even remotely faze my argument due to the conditions I posted. Guess that still stands, unless you have a better refute to address it.

Gohan is never shown to be fatigued to the point he'd need to take it down a notch, neither is Dabra.

Goku never gives Gohan a Senzu Bean during or after his fight with Dabra either.

Gohan is winded after the fight. And in the manga, they are both winded.

Yeah. Looks like it's about that time for you to bring out that DBZ DvD or flip that manga page back open before you continue this debate in embarrassment. I understand people forget time to time, so it's no biggie.

Everything you've said is completely subjective based on interpretation and perspective

Sorry, but not really.
The difference is in the backing up. Because again for the tenth time...there is absolutely no suggestion or evidence for Cell having a huge amount of energy in reserve after being utterly defeated by Paikuhan nor is there anything supporting Cell's full power > Paikuhan's attack.
Nothing at all.

The manga is consistent with characterizations upon what character would call and act upon names with Goku and co. on Majin Buu.

Same deal with the guidebooks. Daizenshuu 4 may group them differently than Daizenshuu 7 based on the certain book's categories and characteristics.
I'm still waiting for a valid contradiction... but it seems I'm waiting longer than I should and it's taken you several tries now. Guess you really did 'have to think really hard' to find them.

Categorizing names differently in guides that are part of a series of guides is just that, inconsistent. I've stated valid contradiction, even Herms acknowledges there's errors in the books from time to time (somethin' like 40), they're not perfect. You can continue trying to rationalize stupidity, but it's only going to show you have no idea what you're talking about.

Sooner or later, you're just going to need to learn to stop misinterpreting me if we ever hope to end this debate in our lifetime. I never said the guides were perfect, or have no errors in them. I am saying that the errors aren't as big as you think(all of your examples up to now are all from what you've randomly heard from others. Most if not all of which have turned out to be mainly fabricated, and not from what you actually know to be errors). I am also saying that the manga has as much if not worse errors. And just because it has errors, doesn't mean we ignore the entire piece. Therefore unless you have unrefutable evidence to defeat the supplementary material from the manga itself for that one section we are arguing about(and not the whole piece), official material will be put in higher value than a random fan's opinion(especially one that is turning out very biased such as in this case). It's as simple as that.

@edit: Oh really? (I think I have an idea of where you're talking about.) Which exact supplemental book and in what section does it say this then?

[Perfect]

It's funny that you'd call me difficult here, really. There's two time line threads in there that contain errors from #7's, the anime, etc.
http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... 6&p=256713
http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... 9&p=260816

I'm afraid I don't read minds, so no, I had no idea what you were talking about. Your "point" doesn't hold, it's just a matter of what you count as canon. Some people count the video games as canon, granted I don't, but some people do.

No, quote yourself. In reality here, I really don't care. So if you're trying to make a point that's worth discussing that I can't remember, quote it, otherwise that's your problem.

I don't see how I've "twisted my argument". Is it my fault you don't understand something fundamental? No not at all. Chi revolves around the user if they have enough, that shouldn't have to be mentioned, let alone "twist my argument" around. Recoom's example could be attributed for various reasons. It really also depends on what instance you're referring to.

A. Recoom getting hit by Vegeta's first blast.
B. Recoom's mouth getting shut and losing teeth.
C. Recoom getting hit by Vegeta's second blast.

You see, you've ignored every point I've made by simply ignoring it as it supports the theory. Thus only attacking one support beam of it, it really doesn't get you very far. Goku's wrist bands were hit by Majin Vegeta's blast and by your logic should have been instantly vaporized. All of Gohan's clothes should have been vaporized when Buu's blast hit him after he was released. All of Goku's clothes would have been erased by various attacks from Freeza instead of rips and tears. You really have no argument against this, seeing that all you're saying is "YOU'RE WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG".

You're missing the point and obviously skimming what I'm saying instead of reading it. Vegeta's near death =/ near zero on a minuscule level. It'd be comparable to a low level where the attacks made would be completely useless considering the opponents level of chi. This goes back to the RPG analogy I gave here. If Vegeta's max was 50 and he was at 10, he's near death, but not at or near zero. Near zero would be around 1-5. Vegeta's down by zero, but he's not close enough that he doesn't have any energy, like Gohan. Vegeta's weakness on Namek during that fight is comparable to his weakness on Earth. Surely his battle power wasn't zero as he was crawling to his pod, very very much so closer than on Namek however. Cell clearly showed lesser signs of fatigue and pain as he was tossed into the needles, thus implying recovery time of some sort.

You're literally just making things up now, or heavily misinterpreting them. Goku was flying through the air in his base form, thinking Freeza was done. Then out of no where he notices a Kienzen, he manages to dodge it because of the delayed reaction. He quite clearly had enough energy to fly, so that already breaks your argument. Then he transforms and retaliates, there's nothing more to it. Transforming has to require some form of energy, especially if it's giving energy. Notice in plenty of scenes that Goku's muscle size increases and he has to verbally yell. All that requires energy of some sort, that's proof enough.

I. Then it seems were on equal terms, from this context alone as it is.

II. I don't see it that way, at all.

III. Yes his battle power was zero and he was stated to be "all but dead".

I guess that doesn't qualify your theory then. With no support or evidence, and everything being based subjectively I don't even see the point of you making the theory up in the first place, without a biased motive(overrating Cell). Might as well argue Post near death powerup Cell is stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but toyed with a crippled Gohan and never showed all his power reserves (or given the 'time')before he was defeated. I mean Cell didn't even need a senzu bean or much time if at all to fully recover, get a near death powerup, and come and blast Trunks in the chest in the mortal world. Nothing should be preventing him from dusting off the initial stun(which we are shown him doing as he is conscious afterwords) and going up and beating Paikuhan. He didn't. Therefore unless you have good evidence(which has been lacking this entire debate)he was exactly like Vegeta was after his fight with Recoome. Utterly defeated with no power left.

It does mean something. Because as I showed, Vegeta wasn't in the single digits. He was in the hundreds of thousands. Meaning, even taking into account Kuririn's attack, he logically should have still had more than enough power in reserve. And no, don't twist what you said to try and agree with mine now...

The amount of time Cell needed to regenerate and receive a power up is subjective to artistic speculation and interpretation. Nothing should prevent him? That's subjective friend, your evidence is all the more subjective as mine, stop being a hypocrite.

I'm going to twist what I said? I used the single digits because it makes absolutely no difference. As long as the higher numbers are higher and the lower numbers are lower it all works. Vegeta was taking continuous damage from the attack, nothing implies his reveres were overpowered because he was suppressed, nothing implies he was able to use his reserves again either. We can only assume that Vegeta was living on the life support of the energy Krillin's attack didn't destroy from the attack or that Vegeta's reserves were helping him stay alive. Both are subjective and have no evidence towards them, much like everything you've said regarding this issue.

..Is completely different than saying the damage he took from his injuries were the cause of his battle power drastically dropping.

And if you bothered to read(funny how it's your own advice I have to keep re-telling you), it doesn't even remotely faze my argument due to the conditions I posted. Guess that still stands, unless you have a better refute to address it.

Aside from the fact it can work for Cell either way, it does quite destroy your theory.

A. Cell could have taken damage from his injuries, causing his battle power to severely drop.

B. Cell wasn't able to access his reserves due to his injuries.

Gohan is winded after the fight. And in the manga, they are both winded.

There's no evidence of either of them being fatigued from the start, or even the middle of the fight. You can see little signs towards the end however.

Yeah. Looks like it's about that time for you to bring out that DBZ DvD or flip that manga page back open before you continue this debate in embarrassment. I understand people forget time to time, so it's no biggie.

Aren't you clever? Oh, I'm embarrassing myself huh? No, I'm afraid not. Even if I were wrong, I wouldn't be embarrassed, I'd just admit my mistake and move on. The matter of the fact is, unless you're referring to right before the Majin Vegeta fight, Goku never gives Gohan a Senzu. You see this is where your argument takes a turn for the worse. If Gohan were so fatigued as you say, then Goku would have given Gohan a Senzu during the fight, much like he did with Cell. Saying he gave him one way after the fight, as opposed to immediately only tells the reader that Gohan needs it for Buu and nothing else. Plus Gohan would only be fatigued by using SSJ and fighting Dabra for what we see on screen based on speculation, seeing that nothing supports your theory.

Sorry, but not really.
The difference is in the backing up. Because again for the tenth time...there is absolutely no suggestion or evidence for Cell having a huge amount of energy in reserve after being utterly defeated by Paikuhan nor is there anything supporting Cell's full power > Paikuhan's attack.
Nothing at all.

Cell was suppressed as we know, meaning that when Pikkon's attack hit him, he slammed him to zero there on the second hit most likely.

Cell max - 1200
Suppressed Cell initial - 700
Pikkon initial - 650
Pikkon's attack - 1000
Cell beaten - -300-0 (the -300 comes from the energy taken from his reserves to be at zero and then recover to what's left).
Cell final - 100-200
That would mean Cell's chi would be recovered through whatever amount he has left, which would be 500, and in the end 200. The 200 which he probably had around, maybe 100, from when he gets thrown into the needles is not enough to stop Pikkon but all together still greater than Pikkon's attack.

Same deal with the guidebooks. Daizenshuu 4 may group them differently than Daizenshuu 7 based on the certain book's categories and characteristics.
I'm still waiting for a valid contradiction... but it seems I'm waiting longer than I should and it's taken you several tries now. Guess you really did 'have to think really hard' to find them.

No, you're just trying to rationalize errors, and it isn't working. There's nothing in them that states their categorizations match the character's progression and configurations, as opposed to "disagreeing with one another", or rather, contradicting one another.

Sooner or later, you're just going to need to learn to stop misinterpreting me if we ever hope to end this debate in our lifetime. I never said the guides were perfect, or have no errors in them. I am saying that the errors aren't as big as you think(all of your examples up to now are all from what you've randomly heard from others.

Again with the hypocrisy and misinterpretations? I've stated there's roughly 40 and they're all fairly small. And I'm the one that misinterprets you huh?

Most if not all of which have turned out to be mainly fabricated and not from what you actually know to be errors). I am also saying that the manga has as much if not worse errors. And just because it has errors, doesn't mean we ignore the entire piece.

I'm afraid that's quite far from the truth, seeing I've backed up everything I've said. In fact, nothing I've stated is fabricated, it's rather funny you'd even go to the length to state such a blatant lie. The manga story wise has very few errors and they're mainly debatable. The manga has a wide variety of artwork errors which is perfectly acceptable seeing Mr. Toriyama's deadlines. I also never stated that we should ignore any supplemental material, ever. I actually said quite the opposite a few posts back. I've merely stated that supplemental material can be just as wrong as the main material, thus referring to that scan we've been arguing over, whatever its origins are *cough*.

Therefore unless you have unrefutable evidence to defeat the supplementary material from the manga itself for that one section we are arguing about(and not the whole piece), official material will be put in higher value than a random fan's opinion(especially one that is turning out very biased such as in this case). It's as simple as that.

@edit: Oh really? (I think I have an idea of where you're talking about.) Which exact supplemental book and in what section does it say this then?

I'm sooo biased and such a random fan that doesn't matter, get over yourself please. As if what you think of me matters in the slightest. Simple at that, refer to the above part of the post.

Yes really. That would be #7:
http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.p ... r_s-u#link

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There's only one timeline from Daizenshuu 7. The other is Herms using other material to build his own.

My point holds. I never uttered the word "canon". When we're discussing the anime, guidebooks, and the manga... thinking "official material" as being about video games in an argument is quite frankly, and I don't see a better word to put it, very foolish.

Don't really feel like it for such useless points(don't even remember what you wrote anymore). You have a mouse and a keyboard, you can scroll. I don't think you realize it's not my point I'm trying to discuss. You made a comment and I already said I addressed it, which I did. If you want your point to hold then go do what you preach

I just ask you read everything carefully

address it and let us progress. Otherwise I'll just assume your point wasn't very important and forget about it.

Ki is internal energy. It has absolutely nothing to do with guarding the user's clothes.

Considering we're discussing clothes, Both B and C are irrelevant. I read your paragraph. I was not impressed. You’re honestly just ranting now (*brings another side factor not relevant to the discussion. Then Proceeds with…* “I’m NOT WRONG, SO STOP SAYING I’m WRONG” type remarks) with little contributing evidence. For Gohan, Kaioshin destroyed the beam instead of the beam naturally and completely erupting on Gohan and his clothes. It's equivalent to him being hit by a bus; one's clothes don't magically get ripped apart in such a scenario. As for Goku, his wristbands were durable enough to withstand SSJ2+ Ki attack. It's as simple as that. As for Freeza, Goku's clothes were ripped accordingly. The facts still remain: Vegeta can absolutely destroy Recoome’s uniform without damaging Recoome. This is shown several times in the series(again, even the newest Episode of Bardock anime understands this concept). So again: Ki has nothing to do with the user’s clothes. This holds. Glad you finally get it.

Enough with the useless RPG analogy, it’s not helping you at all bro. If Vegeta’s max is 50 and is at 10, he is NOT near death. He has a whopping 10 battle power to support all his vital life functions. Again, a Gohan at 1 can breathe, talk, walk, and sustain life just fine. For a similar organism like Gohan, near Death isn’t going to be anything higher than that. By your warped definition, anyone could just say that same 50 Vegeta at 49 is also near death. Your RPG definition of “Near Death” is trying to be based on perception, which is pretty ridiculous and not suggested in the slightest in this series. Drop it.

he manages to dodge it because of the delayed reaction.

This doesn’t make sense, even coming from you. He dodged it, he dodged it. Don’t see how else you can try to rationalize it. It breaks my argument? lol... I don’t even think you know what you’re arguing against anymore. Or maybe you’re just confused. Because you just supported me more. If Base Goku goes from barely able to keep his eye lid open or stand up on his own, to being able to fly and almost dodge a Kienzan from 100% Freeza after unlocking and transforming into SSJ, certainly nothing is supporting anything about that transformation requiring energy…if anything it supports giving Goku energy.
I. Not quite.
II. Well I do. And as the person you’re trying to get a supposed point across with that very analogy, its purpose is defeated.
III. The line is "just about dead”.

I already laid the conditions why it doesn’t work for Cell.

1) Cell didn't take continuous damage. As we see him falling into the needles, he isn't holding any area in agony(which should be his face) and he shows no sign of pain.
2) Stated in that filler(and many times later on) that there's no concept of 'time'(in regards to energy loss) in Hell or the afterlife. This is why SSJ3 does not get instantly worn out in the otherworlds. 'Recovery time' shouldn't exist in the first place for Cell in your argument.

That’s what I said. "Gohan is winded after the fight." It’s for a moment though. So he very well could have been winded for a moment off panel after being SSJ2 in the beginning of the fight as well. Either way, Goku directly states Gohan lost a significant amount of energy and hands him a senzu bean, so I don’t really see what more you could go with this.

Well I mean, what other place do you think I would be referring too? When Goku gave Gohan a bean in the Saiyan arc? Or hey, maybe the Namek arc? Obviously I’m referring to after the Dabra fight (you know, the fight we were JUST discussing). Goku wouldn’t give Gohan a bean during the fight, because Gohan hadn’t lost nor was he losing yet, he states as much. Goku directly states Gohan used up a lot of energy. So even if you chalk it up to having him at full strength for Dabra/possibly Boo, it still doesn’t take away the fact that Gohan is stated to have used up a lot of energy fighting Dabra. I guess everything supports Gohan using SSJ2 at one point in the Dabra fight after all. Much unlike the Cell > Paikuhan assumption.

Great. Just what we need. More useless randomly generated numbers that still don’t support the thought of “Cell's full power > Paikuhan's attack”. I know how your theory works, you’ve said it several times now...there's no need to put it in number form. I just want you to provide anime/manga backup for the perception of “Cell's full power > Paikuhan's attack” now. Quality evidence or support (NOT subjective) that’s comparable in strength to the ones I’ve provided for Gohan using SSJ2 against Dabra at one point in the battle. Otherwise, it’s simply just another silly and non-suggested theory like many others. I mean if you can’t find any supporting evidence, then just say so so the argument can instantly end. I don't have any problem with you believing such even if it has no supporting evidence, just as long as you’re aware that the theory is well...pretty silly.

Still no proof it’s an error. You have to absolutely downright prove it’s wrong. If a person’s rationalization is sound and ‘could’ account for it from a certain perception, then it’s not a real error.

List all 40 errors then. I’ll be waiting (probably quite awhile). It’s taken you 4 tries just to finally get one valid error from Daizenshuu 7(just one out of 10+ books) afterall. In which the error turned out to be literally as small as one single number. Guess I was right when I said

Point one occasion out tho. I'm curious to hear it. You'd probably have to think really hard.

[FindKenshi]

Cell got taken off guard before. Goku took him off guard with the teleportation and Kamehameha in his face, completely undefended.

Whatever Paikon hit Cell with, it defeated Cell. Cell can take damage and just regenerate himself better, but whatever Paikon did damaged him to the point where he was out of commission. Cell was even conscious when he's hurled onto that spike, so he was simply just hurt so bad he couldn't get up and continue fighting.

Hard to argue that's just because he was "off guard."

[VegettoEX]

Perfect, you've already been individually warned about this. lash, you're being added to the mix.

If the two of you cannot debate politely, you will not be debating here at all. Enough with the back-handed name calling and passive-aggressive attacks. It's absolute nonsense, and not reflective of this community's intent in any way.

[Titan]

Cell got taken off guard before. Goku took him off guard with the teleportation and Kamehameha in his face, completely undefended.

Whatever Paikon hit Cell with, it defeated Cell. Cell can take damage and just regenerate himself better, but whatever Paikon did damaged him to the point where he was out of commission. Cell was even conscious when he's hurled onto that spike, so he was simply just hurt so bad he couldn't get up and continue fighting.

Hard to argue that's just because he was "off guard."

Totally agree with you.

[paperbowser]

There's only one timeline from Daizenshuu 7. The other is Herms using other material to build his own.

My point holds. I never uttered the word "canon". When we're discussing the anime, guidebooks, and the manga... thinking "official material" as being about video games in an argument is quite frankly, and I don't see a better word to put it, very foolish.

Don't really feel like it for such useless points(don't even remember what you wrote anymore). You have a mouse and a keyboard, you can scroll. I don't think you realize it's not my point I'm trying to discuss. You made a comment and I already said I addressed it, which I did. If you want your point to hold then go do what you preach

I just ask you read everything carefully

address it and let us progress. Otherwise I'll just assume your point wasn't very important and forget about it.

Ki is internal energy. It has absolutely nothing to do with guarding the user's clothes.

Considering we're discussing clothes, Both B and C are irrelevant. I read your paragraph. I was not impressed. You’re honestly just ranting now (*brings another side factor not relevant to the discussion. Then Proceeds with…* “I’m NOT WRONG, SO STOP SAYING I’m WRONG” type remarks) with little contributing evidence. For Gohan, Kaioshin destroyed the beam instead of the beam naturally and completely erupting on Gohan and his clothes. It's equivalent to him being hit by a bus; one's clothes don't magically get ripped apart in such a scenario. As for Goku, his wristbands were durable enough to withstand SSJ2+ Ki attack. It's as simple as that. As for Freeza, Goku's clothes were ripped accordingly. The facts still remain: Vegeta can absolutely destroy Recoome’s uniform without damaging Recoome. This is shown several times in the series(again, even the newest Episode of Bardock anime understands this concept). So again: Ki has nothing to do with the user’s clothes. This holds. Glad you finally get it.

Enough with the useless RPG analogy, it’s not helping you at all bro. If Vegeta’s max is 50 and is at 10, he is NOT near death. He has a whopping 10 battle power to support all his vital life functions. Again, a Gohan at 1 can breathe, talk, walk, and sustain life just fine. For a similar organism like Gohan, near Death isn’t going to be anything higher than that. By your warped definition, anyone could just say that same 50 Vegeta at 49 is also near death. Your RPG definition of “Near Death” is trying to be based on perception, which is pretty ridiculous and not suggested in the slightest in this series. Drop it.

he manages to dodge it because of the delayed reaction.

This doesn’t make sense, even coming from you. He dodged it, he dodged it. Don’t see how else you can try to rationalize it. It breaks my argument? lol... I don’t even think you know what you’re arguing against anymore. Or maybe you’re just confused. Because you just supported me more. If Base Goku goes from barely able to keep his eye lid open or stand up on his own, to being able to fly and almost dodge a Kienzan from 100% Freeza after unlocking and transforming into SSJ, certainly nothing is supporting anything about that transformation requiring energy…if anything it supports giving Goku energy.
I. Not quite.
II. Well I do. And as the person you’re trying to get a supposed point across with that very analogy, its purpose is defeated.
III. The line is "just about dead”.

I already laid the conditions why it doesn’t work for Cell.

1) Cell didn't take continuous damage. As we see him falling into the needles, he isn't holding any area in agony(which should be his face) and he shows no sign of pain.
2) Stated in that filler(and many times later on) that there's no concept of 'time'(in regards to energy loss) in Hell or the afterlife. This is why SSJ3 does not get instantly worn out in the otherworlds. 'Recovery time' shouldn't exist in the first place for Cell in your argument.

That’s what I said. "Gohan is winded after the fight." It’s for a moment though. So he very well could have been winded for a moment off panel after being SSJ2 in the beginning of the fight as well. Either way, Goku directly states Gohan lost a significant amount of energy and hands him a senzu bean, so I don’t really see what more you could go with this.

Well I mean, what other place do you think I would be referring too? When Goku gave Gohan a bean in the Saiyan arc? Or hey, maybe the Namek arc? Obviously I’m referring to after the Dabra fight (you know, the fight we were JUST discussing). Goku wouldn’t give Gohan a bean during the fight, because Gohan hadn’t lost nor was he losing yet, he states as much. Goku directly states Gohan used up a lot of energy. So even if you chalk it up to having him at full strength for Dabra/possibly Boo, it still doesn’t take away the fact that Gohan is stated to have used up a lot of energy fighting Dabra. I guess everything supports Gohan using SSJ2 at one point in the Dabra fight after all. Much unlike the Cell > Paikuhan assumption.

Great. Just what we need. More useless randomly generated numbers that still don’t support the thought of “Cell's full power > Paikuhan's attack”. I know how your theory works, you’ve said it several times now...there's no need to put it in number form. I just want you to provide anime/manga backup for the perception of “Cell's full power > Paikuhan's attack” now. Quality evidence or support (NOT subjective) that’s comparable in strength to the ones I’ve provided for Gohan using SSJ2 against Dabra at one point in the battle. Otherwise, it’s simply just another silly and non-suggested theory like many others. I mean if you can’t find any supporting evidence, then just say so so the argument can instantly end. I don't have any problem with you believing such even if it has no supporting evidence, just as long as you’re aware that the theory is well...pretty silly.

Still no proof it’s an error. You have to absolutely downright prove it’s wrong. If a person’s rationalization is sound and ‘could’ account for it from a certain perception, then it’s not a real error.

List all 40 errors then. I’ll be waiting (probably quite awhile). It’s taken you 4 tries just to finally get one valid error from Daizenshuu 7(just one out of 10+ books) afterall. In which the error turned out to be literally as small as one single number. Guess I was right when I said

Point one occasion out tho. I'm curious to hear it. You'd probably have to think really hard.

Why're you constantly saying everything is wrong and irrelevant based on your own theories that are never implied by anything besides interpretation?

[Perfect]

If Fox and I were able to come to a reasonable and polite agreement, I'm sure lash and I can as well. I'm briefly brushing on the arguments at hand since a few of them are partially off topic anyhow.

Timeline evaluation:

This time line thread actually states in the very beginning there's some flaws he's going to attempt to fix based on the criteria.

A Stronger Loving Time-Line:

This time line is a modified version of #7's time line with added criteria.

I'm gonna just group the rest here:
Some people consider the video games as official, canon, whatever. The terminology doesn't really matter, you're not here to decide what people consider as apart of what's in the continuum. If some people want to group it with the anime, they can, that's their decision, and I don't see anything wrong with it. If I were to make a point based on that I'd probably reiterate it if I felt it was important, as I am now. Since you're not, that just goes to say you don't think it's important enough.

Now if you're referring to Vegeta's first attack since you're saying B and C are irrelevant, then let's focus on A. Recoom was surprised by Vegeta's initial power up, his face and scouter indicate that. He then gets punched in the face and sent flying with an energy blast in return. Recoom didn't have a chance to react and the chi Vegeta sent at him over powered the natural build up around him, which in turn wasn't enough to cause enough damage to lower his power below Vegeta's, or even close for that matter. There's nothing that implies Goku's wristbands can withstand them, there's nothing that implies clothes are ever made durable enough, that's a theory that has no ground. Goku's clothes being ripped accordingly is a really poor excuse seeing that you're just saying, "Goku had his clothes ripped where they should be", there's no elaboration. Just because a user's clothes are damaged does not mean they're damaged, just they broke the person's natural build up of chi. That's also not to say they can't be damaged with their clothes, it goes both ways. Besides if chi didn't protect one's clothes, Vegeta's gloves would've been destroyed when he reflected Zarbon's attack in their first fight.

I'm not going to drop it just because you tell me to. When a user in a game is near low health, not just in RPG's, even in Super Mario 64, their HP hud flashes; implying the character's going to die soon. That's near death I'm afraid. 10 is near death, but not near zero. One could also be suffering continuous damage from the attack, dropping to 9, to 8, etc.

Uhm, I'm just going to ignore your passive-aggressive comments here so I don't accumulate another warning. Goku's reaction is delayed, simply speaking because he didn't see it coming until the last second. Therefore that's delayed in comparison with actually seeing it.

II. Again, nothing here is "defeated".
III.

Chapter: 278 (DBZ 84), P13.5
Context: after Recoom kicks Gohan hard
Jheese: “He’s all but dead. He doesn’t have any battle power remaining.”
Burta: “Naturally. His neck’s broken.”

Goku states he lost energy way after the entire fight. You're implying that Gohan lost all that energy from the start of the fight, but nothing implies that; especially since Gohan was using quite a bit of energy during what we see. There's no evidence towards Gohan being SSJ2 before the fight. Again, I'm going to ignore the passive-aggressiveness here. If Goku was so concerned about Gohan's energy during the time, he would have given it to him right after, hence my confusion. He gives it to him before he fights Vegeta, basically implying he'd be too weak to stop them from reviving Buu or fighting Buu if he went in without it. Nothing points to Gohan losing his energy from being SSJ2, just from fighting Dabra.

Still no proof it’s an error. You have to absolutely downright prove it’s wrong. If a person’s rationalization is sound and ‘could’ account for it from a certain perception, then it’s not a real error.

List all 40 errors then. I’ll be waiting (probably quite awhile). It’s taken you 4 tries just to finally get one valid error from Daizenshuu 7(just one out of 10+ books) afterall. In which the error turned out to be literally as small as one single number. Guess I was right when I said

It hasn't taken me four tries, seeing that I'm still on the first try. Tenshinhan does not fight #19 and therefore it is an error, unless you can prove #19 did fight Tenshinhan.

Main argument:
Whether or not Cell took continuous damage is up to interpretation, just as if he was completely over powered in one attack. Plus I've already addressed this and your whole time misinterpretation, "If a character were to be knocked to one battle power, they'd never recover, etc."

Uh, nothing here is random besides the actual literal numbers I used, not their sequence. Nothing here implies that there's anything wrong with the sequence, it all works perfectly.

Cell max - 1200
Suppressed Cell initial - 700
Paikuhan initial - 650
Paikuhan's attack - 1000
Cell beaten - -300-0 (the -300 comes from the energy taken from his reserves to be at zero and then recover to what's left).
Cell final - 100-200
That would mean Cell's chi would be recovered through whatever amount he has left, which would be 500, and in the end 200. The 200 which he probably had around, maybe 100, from when he gets thrown into the needles is not enough to stop Paikuhan but all together still greater than Paikuhan's attack.

I'll break it down for you, to try and elaborate further, seeing that for some reason you're just calling this "made up".

Variable a: Cell's max. This is the uppermost battle power of Cell, it's his post-zenkai power at the highest it can go. We can assign any number to this, so long as it's above all of Cell's other variables here.

Variable b: Suppressed Cell initial. This is the battle power we see Cell flying to Goku at, it's not the greatest amount of power, but it's still lower than his full power.

Variable c: Pikkon's initial. This is the battle power of Pikkon, which should be below his attack's power.

Variable d: Pikkon's attack. This is simply the power of Pikkon's attack. We can chalk it up to be stronger than Cell's initial state, but lower than his max state. By doing this we get a negative number or simply zero for variable e.

Variable e: Cell beaten. We know that battle powers can't be negative, but we can use negative numbers to illustrate the idea here. If Cell was hit with more force than he could handle, it'd require a recovery time. Since we have -300, that's 300 taken from his reserves instantly, so that's not where it comes to play. We have 0 building up to 200, which would be the chi he has left from his reserves. That 200 is going to take some time to build to, and would still be nothing to Goku or Pikkon.

Variable f: Cell final. As stated, this is the last bit of Cell we see. Even if he had time to recover to 200 it wouldn't make a difference, we could say he recovered to 100, 150 or 200 even. Regardless of which it'd make no difference in the outcome. So we can even say Cell had his recovery time, but it'd still make no difference. We could also attribute continuous damage, meaning that 100-200 was being gradually taken down as it was going up:
0 becomes 10
10 becomes 8
8 becomes 15
15 becomes 10

[FindKenshi]

Cell got taken off guard before. Goku took him off guard with the teleportation and Kamehameha in his face, completely undefended.

Whatever Paikon hit Cell with, it defeated Cell. Cell can take damage and just regenerate himself better, but whatever Paikon did damaged him to the point where he was out of commission. Cell was even conscious when he's hurled onto that spike, so he was simply just hurt so bad he couldn't get up and continue fighting.

Hard to argue that's just because he was "off guard."

Totally agree with you.

It indeed makes a lot of sense.

[Perfect]

Cell got taken off guard before. Goku took him off guard with the teleportation and Kamehameha in his face, completely undefended.

Whatever Paikon hit Cell with, it defeated Cell. Cell can take damage and just regenerate himself better, but whatever Paikon did damaged him to the point where he was out of commission. Cell was even conscious when he's hurled onto that spike, so he was simply just hurt so bad he couldn't get up and continue fighting.

Hard to argue that's just because he was "off guard."

Totally agree with you.

It indeed makes a lot of sense.

Already discussed in arguments, a, b, c, d, e, f and g. Regardless of the means, in the end he was defeated. That's not really what we're arguing about here.

[FindKenshi]

Yes, you're arguing whether or not he was defeated because he was weaker, or if he simply got surprised. The point I made, though you may not have seen it, was that Cell can't be defeated simply by being surprised. He's more than capable of regenerating damage done to his body. It's extremely unlikely for Cell to get taken out by someone weaker because they just hit him the wrong way. We've seen Goku do such with his surprise attack. Cell just brushed it off, and healed himself. He couldn't do that after Paikon hit him. It had to have been serious force behind that attack. More than Cell could withstand.

[Perfect]

Yes, you're arguing whether or not he was defeated because he was weaker, or if he simply got surprised. The point I made, though you may not have seen it, was that Cell can't be defeated simply by being surprised. He's more than capable of regenerating damage done to his body. It's extremely unlikely for Cell to get taken out by someone weaker because they just hit him the wrong way. We've seen Goku do such with his surprise attack. Cell just brushed it off, and healed himself. He couldn't do that after Paikon hit him. It had to have been serious force behind that attack. More than Cell could withstand.

No, we're really not. We're arguing over whether or not Cell's final reserves were over powered by an attack with a higher battle power. Both lash and I established that Cell was at an initial battle power instead of his max, which he regarded as irrelevant. It has nothing to do with being surprised at this point, as opposed to his reserves being completely vanquished or enough to replenish his power. And no, Cell can't regenerate "damage" to his body, only if something's missing. See Cell and Pikkon's numerical values in my last post for the answer to the context I've presented.

[FindKenshi]

No, I think we can agree that the root cause of this debate is whether or not Paikon is truly stronger than Cell. That may be the point at which you and Lash have turned your discussion, but the broader issue here, is whether or not you think Paikon really was stronger. Am I wrong?

[Perfect]

No, I think we can agree that the root cause of this debate is whether or not Paikon is truly stronger than Cell. That may be the point at which you and Lash have turned your discussion, but the broader issue here, is whether or not you think Paikon really was stronger. Am I wrong?

That's the initial point of the thread, but we've divulged into deeper mechanics, at which have a larger precedent over what you're saying. As I've stated, everything you've gone over has been presented in arguments, a, b, c, d, e, f, and g. Regardless of the means, in the end he's defeated. With that said, we're still going over some of the certain "means" for him to be defeated.

[paperbowser]

No, I think we can agree that the root cause of this debate is whether or not Paikon is truly stronger than Cell. That may be the point at which you and Lash have turned your discussion, but the broader issue here, is whether or not you think Paikon really was stronger. Am I wrong?

Everything you're saying is irrelevant to the argument at hand. Your input is unnecessary and shouldn't be posted.

[VegettoEX]

Account warning issued.

Back to a polite discussion, please.

[FindKenshi]

I guess I would have to review arguments a, b, c, d, e, f, and g. I'm just not seeing how this is so complicated. The mechanics which you're now discussing, sound like total conjecture. I've seen it brought up here before, and there doesn't seem to be anything strictly defined about what it is you're discussing. The concept of "reserve power"... what official materials, either from the source, or supplemental, define this?

I'd say as the debate has become a monster, you should take it back to square one, and proceed with specific references. Once you've identified everything in which you have references for, I would suggest omitting the material, in which there are none.

Just a suggestion. I'd like to see this debate reach a conclusion, and I think that's the best way to do it. It's clear, that the way you guys are currently doing it, will not. There are only 26 letters in the alphabet, and you're already up to "G".