Does it irritate you when people say DB was poorly written?

[FindKenshi]

I can't stand hearing this. Toriyama is an amazing writer, every bit as much as he's a great character artist. Of course the story isn't deep, it's meant for kids. But that doesn't make it "bad." The story has endured to this day, and still has a huge fan following. I'd like to think that's not because of all the gigantic explosions.

[Hellspawn28]

I agree that Dragon Ball does have a good written story, I guess people think it's poorly written since people feel like most characters don't have that much development? I see people always bashing the series for very repetitive when I don't think it's not that repetitive since most people who where reading Dragon Ball when it was brand new in the late 80's and early 90's didn't know what would happen next.

[Piccolo Daimao]

It's not poorly written, that's ridiculous (apart from certain arcs), but it's not greatly written like some people say.

[Perfect]

I'd say it's "greatly" written at certain moments, like when Cell's thinking about Mr. Satan. I thought that was just perfect. As a whole I'd say it's rather subjective, but it's definitely good overall.

[Hellspawn28]

Dragon Ball is a shonen series, you are not going to find something like Watchmen or anything from George Orwell when reading Dragon Ball. I'm pretty sure Toriyama's goal with Dragon Ball was to make a fun series for people to enjoy, not make some deep arthouse series.

[MarcFBR]

As Perfect mentioned, there are many moments where DB is written quite well.


But there are many things in the overall story and world itself that are done very poorly.

The tendency of characters to leave isn't necessarily a negative on any story, but with Dragon Ball they generally seem to less leave and more just "stop appearing", and then you have moments with Tenshinhan where he then just appears, saves everyone, and leaves again. At best it's lazy writing, at worst it's just poor.


There are many similar arguments to be made throughout the series. Bad writing in something good shouldn't be ignored, but DB most definitely does HAVE poor writing... whether that means the series itself is written poorly...

[Cipher]

The thing is, when it comes to a series like this, what's poorly written?

I like a lot of "literary" art. I like arthouse films. I read contemporary short stories actively. I write them. I'm applying to MFA programs.

Dragon Ball's not high art. It's not even high-level genre fiction; it's plots aren't complex; it's characters aren't (on the surface) complex. That said, Dragon Ball does exactly what it needs to do. It's an all-ages story developed primarily to entertain Japanese children. It's suspenseful when it needs to be; it's intense when it needs to be; you like the characters when you're supposed to and it's always tongue-in-cheek enough to keep a sense of whimsy. You can't even hold it up to the sort of standards of internal consistency other fantasy/sci-fi material might be judged on, because it has absolutely no pretentious of trying to meet them.

And despite all that, it still hits a few moments of genuine, bittersweet emotion, mostly due to the fact it ages its characters 30-some years throughout its story.

EDIT --

Having read Marc's post, I suppose I do have to agree that there are some objectively sloppy moments, no matter what the series' aims are. Characters dropping out is fine; it happens in real life. But leaving it completely unaddressed sort of kills any down-to-Earth sentiment it might otherwise carry. There are also several moments that beg to be explained so that the tension can work properly. The audience can only care about Goku holding off Boo so much when they're wondering why the hell he didn't just teleport to Capsule Corp. himself. And there are moments where the fight-to-fight structure is a little too transparent.

[Haji]

Yes it makes me mad because the man worked on the series for 10 good years and even continued on with the Buu ark for the fans. It really angers me when i hear people talking negative about him or making jokes. I say get off the mans back. Those people should try to write and drawl a story for 10 years and see if they don't forget a little part of the story or side line character.

[Gaffer Tape]

Gonna have to agree with Marc here. As much as I love DB, there are plenty of moments, especially later in the series, that are just lazy or just poorly thought out. And a lot of that has to do with the fact that he made it up as he went along. At the beginning, when he had a small amount of characters and a relatively simple comedic story, it didn't hurt anything. But when he had so many characters (most of whom did nothing but stand around in the background) and (more) serious plotlines and more complicated devices (time travel) it really began to weigh in on him. Just the fact alone that you would have this huge cast of characters that basically does nothing should be enough to warrant a re-write. Then you have huge set-ups that go nowhere, especially in regards to power-ups (see Piccolo in the Freeza and Cell arcs and pretty much everyone in the Boo arc). You don't really have to hold it up to high standards of storytelling to find something to criticize.

[Bussani]

I think Dragon Ball holds together surprisingly well when you consider that Toriyama was making it up as he went and, at least in certain places, was heavily changing the plot as he wrote it. For someone who couldn't remember who Taopaipai was, he did a really good job.

Yes it makes me mad because the man worked on the series for 10 good years and even continued on with the Buu ark for the fans. It really angers me when i hear people talking negative about him or making jokes. I say get off the mans back. Those people should try to write and drawl a story for 10 years and see if they don't forget a little part of the story or side line character.

So people should just ignore and avoid talking about any faults in the work like they're not there?

[MarcFBR]

Gonna have to agree with Marc here. As much as I love DB, there are plenty of moments, especially later in the series, that are just lazy or just poorly thought out. And a lot of that has to do with the fact that he made it up as he went along. At the beginning, when he had a small amount of characters and a relatively simple comedic story, it didn't hurt anything. But when he had so many characters (most of whom did nothing but stand around in the background) and (more) serious plotlines and more complicated devices (time travel) it really began to weigh in on him. Just the fact alone that you would have this huge cast of characters that basically does nothing should be enough to warrant a re-write. Then you have huge set-ups that go nowhere, especially in regards to power-ups (see Piccolo in the Freeza and Cell arcs and pretty much everyone in the Boo arc). You don't really have to hold it up to high standards of storytelling to find something to criticize.

And that's the fun gist of the argument though isn't it.

While there are odd moments in early DB, it isn't until he starts to really expand the series that certain elements really just fall by the wayside in the writing.

Many recurring characters and elements that were part of early Dragon Ball don't mesh well with the Z era stuff, and often they were just cut right out.

In and of itself there's nothing wrong with removing elements that don't work. But changing the basis of the series and just ignoring elements that had been around for years is generally poor writing.

I love early Dragon Ball, and love the later stuff also. But the later more popular stuff is inherently flawed from a writing perspective when you remove the Z and remember it was never meant to stand on it's own, but was part of a continuing tale.

It doesn't mean it wasn't good, but it does create a very easy to look at and explain basis of 'this series has poor writing.'

Based on that specific element alone, it's very easy to objectively look at the work as a 'whole' and say it's poorly written.

[Haji]

Like i said, try to write a story and drawl it for 10 years. that is for all the hypocrites out there.

[MarcFBR]

Like i said, try to write a story and drawl it for 10 years. that is for all the hypocrites out there.

You seem to be missing the point.

It isn't about whether it's normal for writing flaws to creep in over time, it's whether it has poor writing.


As an example- I love Star Trek. There is plenty of Star Trek that is written poorly. It isn't insulting to point out the very real flaws in a franchise. Part of enjoying and looking at a work in depth is owning up to what that work is, when it's good, and especially when it's bad.

Also, learn how to spell draw, you've misspelled it in multiple posts.

[Bussani]

Like i said, try to write a story and drawl it for 10 years. that is for all the hypocrites out there.

Right. So if I can't bake, I shouldn't be able to find fault with someone else's cookie? The old "if you can't _______ yourself then don't criticise someone else's work" argument is ridiculous.

[Eire]

Yes it makes me mad because the man worked on the series for 10 good years and even continued on with the Buu ark for the fans.

What is 10 years in world where manga is written for grandpa's generation and still unfinished when their grandchildren grow to pick it up? Just a blink of eye

I'm generally angry, because it's my hobby Seriously, I usually accent negative parts and I must admit that I have plenty of material while it comes to Dragon Ball, but I do understand that we can't have everything. I can't deny that the amount of plot holes and annoying parts grew with series progress, but still it prons are greater than cons.

[Kiddo626]

I can generally step back and look at the story's flaws with an objective eye just fine, but it bugs me to no end when people oversimplify it to the point where they just summarize it along the lines of, "Good guy fights bad guy. Good guy defeats bad guy. Rinse and repeat." Yes, it does fall into a bit of a formula, especially towards the end of the canon series, but to me, generalizing it to that extent really negates all of the moments that came in between, moments where the writing is genuinely good, IMO.

[Piccolo Daimao]

more complicated devices (time travel)

Surprisingly enough, I think DB handled time travel better than some other science fictions, if only for the fact that they used the "multiple timelines" concept rather than dealing with everything in a single timeline and running into paradoxes. They were still some plotholes in it, though, but I tend to put that down to the blanket reasons of time travel not making much sense in practically every fictional work.

[MarcFBR]

Surprisingly enough, I think DB handled time travel better than some other science fictions, if only for the fact that they used the "multiple timelines" concept rather than dealing with everything in a single timeline and running into paradoxes. They were still some plotholes in it, though, but I tend to put that down to the blanket reasons of time travel not making much sense in practically every fictional work.

That actually isn't as rare or unique as many DBZ fans seem to think (I'm not saying you think it is, but I hear DBZ fans bring that up quite a bit as being a unique method of dealing with the issues of time travel.)

The most known use of it is probably in the Marvel Multiverse.

[Gaffer Tape]

Hmm, I just realize that I never actually answered the question. I gave my own thoughts on the writing of DB, but I didn't answer if it irritated me. So I guess I will do that now: it depends. If someone is complaining about something in a way I think is poorly thought out, factually incorrect, or just for the purpose of getting a rise out of someone, then, yes, it irritates me. But if someone can bring a well-thought-out, well-researched argument to the table, then I don't have to agree with it, nor does it make me less of a fan, to respect that and maybe even gain some insight by it. A lot of reviewers I watch I don't necessarily agree with, but their opinions are insightful and entertaining, so I'm certainly not going to feel the need to be defensive just because someone doesn't like something I like.

I guess my main point is, blindly defending anything just because it's a part of a franchise you're a fan of doesn't make you a better fan. It just means you're allowing your critical thinking skills to dull.

[Perfect]

Another thing to look at is, does complex actually mean well written? And what some view as good/poor writing some view as the opposite (poor/good). I think good writing can be something simple and well developed as well something dynamic and thought provoking. When I look at Dragon Ball, I see an epic similar to a lot of Greek mythology. You have a lot of epic characters, both heroes and villains that go on crazy adventures. While some people may find Garlic Jr. to be terribly written, others may find it to be mediocre or good.

I think if we look at the manga alone, there's a variety of good and poorly written things in my opinion. For instance, I don't find the fact Piccolo's power up went to waste in the end to be poorly written. I find it to be dynamically written in a way that Piccolo serves his purpose until the bitter end when he tanks Freeza's hits for Goku. The way Piccolo just fills the atmosphere when he intervenes with his aura around him, really just shows how good Toriyama was at not only artistically portraying the way characters enter as a means of a planned escape clause, but just how well he was able to show that "Character A is here, shits about to get serious". On the downside in my opinion a poorer aspect of this is that the other characters are mainly doing nothing now. It's a lazy habit we see from start to finish, but he tends to make up for it when he makes at least one-two of those characters do something thereafter. In this case, that'd be making Vegeta get a zenkai and have a greater purpose later on (he even makes Dende and Krillin of use here). It's rather clever how it's set up for Freeza to transform and to let on that Vegeta's gonna tangle with Freeza equally (since he can follow his movements). We as the viewer, assuming we're seeing this for the very first time and knowing absolutely nothing about what's to come next, are probably thinking Vegeta has a chance (and this is Freeza's last form, so it'll be a lot like the first fight they had).

When it comes to things like these, it's rather easy to view things as terribly written, poorly written, written good or greatly written. Anyone that views it all as absolutely terrible or absolutely perfect is pretty biased and should read it for what it is. To kinda reiterate, a lot of what's bad or good about the story is based on interpretation/perspective. You can't for a fact say, "this is terrible writing because he did this" or, "this is fantastic writing because he did this". You can sure try and hype it up with evidence as to why you think about it from that point of view, but it'll always be opinion as opposed to fact (granted there's a few exceptions to this). I'd say the manga as a continuing tale, is easily an epic tale that deserves its own place in history.

If we look at the anime, it's a mess of shitty and great writing. The episode where Gohan and the robot is probably one of the better written and articulated episodes of Z. It shows what the series can bring to the table on a good day. Alas, that's also subjective so someone could say the exact opposite and it'd have the same amount of validations. I'd say the anime is a mixed bag, I mean you have so many different writers meshing things together that you either get something terrible or amazing. Who's to say though, right? Even scholars get things wrong and openly admit that their words are no more subjective than the average person's (granted their words may have more weight based on how they were trained to analyse things).

I think if we view everything as a whole, manga, specials, movies, everything, we can come to a conclusion. A conclusion that there's more pros than cons, but the cons are definitely there. A lot of series have so many different canons, they might as well be different series (and often times they are). Silver age Superman is just a walking plot device, y'know? That doesn't ruin Superman by any means, it just isn't the best of the franchise there. It's a con certainly, at least to a lot of people, some people may say it's a pro (subjective nature and all that jazz). In the end of it all, it's a comic book and a cartoon that millions and millions of people love for its light hearted values. I myself think that how it's always able to treat the most serious of moments in a light hearted way is great on its own. I think that's also another reason people like it so much, just that writing style that Toriyama kept of making simple but distinct characters with emotion underneath the surface carry everything out in a light hearted way that makes itself unique from anything else.

With that said, I think something developed can be well written as opposed to intricate and complex plots that can also be good or terribly written from perspective. The Twilight Zone is one of the most thought provoking and often times complex shows out there, I think it's a good perpendicular line to Dragon Ball. On one hand you have something very intricate with very thought provoking episodes, whereas the other is just a well developed light hearted story. Both are well written from what they're meant to be. I mean if you take a children's book, maybe 30 pages (mostly pictures), it isn't automatically going to be terribly written. It can be very developed and have well spoken messages, thus demonstrating qualities of something that's well written from perspective. Something complex can also be written terribly, you can have tons of characters doing tons of different things with tons of different sub-plots at the moment, but the actual plots, plot devices and everything that goes with it is still very much subjective.

@Piccolo Diamao

Well in theory time travel in Dragon Ball can work flawlessly depending on which other intricate theories you adhere to. Generally if you look at the Multiverse theory or even Chaotic Inflation theory, you can make sense of it pretty well. A lot of series do time travel just like Dragon Ball and make it work jusst as "good" or in some cases, "just as bad".