Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

[FindKenshi]

I believe PAndrews once informed me that the writer behind the Paikon saga, is the same guy who wrote for the early story arcs of DBGT. He has a belief that Goku grows incredibly powerful not only just by fighting, but by watching others fight. I think there may be a line of dialog Paikon has during the tournament, that Goku has increased his skills incredibly after every match in the tournament.

[cyberlord34]

I believe PAndrews once informed me that the writer behind the Paikon saga, is the same guy who wrote for the early story arcs of DBGT. He has a belief that Goku grows incredibly powerful not only just by fighting, but by watching others fight. I think there may be a line of dialog Paikon has during the tournament, that Goku has increased his skills incredibly after every match in the tournament.

First off, where's the proof behind these claims? I don't see any. A character can't simply grow stronger by watching a fight, that's ridiculous.

[FindKenshi]

I don't have access to those episodes, but I was told that Paikon indeed states such. If he does, there would be your proof. If he doesn't, then I was misinformed.

[Perfect]

I don't recall anything stated like that. I think I remember something like, he's been letting him on with his powers and abilities, but I could be wrong.

[lash]

I've stated several times it is subjective, and makes perfect sense based on the numerical mechanics I provided beforehand. From the first point onward I was addressing it in the same mannerism you were, a subjective nature. Paikuhan's attack > Cell's maximum is no more subjective than Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack.

Not quite.
The difference is the evidence supporting it. Even one factual line sways the probability.

As I said as far back as page 4, "Paikuhan's attack > Cell entirely" has the fact that Kaio's statements show he wasn't surprised that Paikuhan defeated Cell. At first, you tried to deem it a plothole, but eventually came to realization that it obviously isn't.

I don't see any in-anime line or guidebook representation supporting "Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack". Not one. Which is the very reason why I consider it silly.

[FindKenshi]

I don't recall anything stated like that. I think I remember something like, he's been letting him on with his powers and abilities, but I could be wrong.

I believe it was PAndrews who told me this, on GameFAQs. He said during or after the fight when Goku is against the Aqua guy, Paikon mentions something about how Goku is already much more powerful now than he was before the tournament began.

[paperbowser]

yeah it's something along the lines of Pikkon being surprised that goku hasnt been going all out

[Perfect]

I've stated several times it is subjective, and makes perfect sense based on the numerical mechanics I provided beforehand. From the first point onward I was addressing it in the same mannerism you were, a subjective nature. Paikuhan's attack > Cell's maximum is no more subjective than Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack.

Not quite.
The difference is the evidence supporting it. Even one factual line sways the probability.

As I said as far back as page 4, "Paikuhan's attack > Cell entirely" has the fact that Kaio's statements show he wasn't surprised that Paikuhan defeated Cell. At first, you tried to deem it a plothole, but eventually came to realization that it obviously isn't.

I don't see any in-anime line or guidebook representation supporting "Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack". Not one. Which is the very reason why I consider it silly.

The difference is Kaio's line that you're referring to here? It can also be a plot hole depending on how you interpret it, so it's not "obvious", I'm sure other people have made that mistake.

Kaio being surprised could be attributed to a lot of factors, having nothing to do with his attack. It could simply be because he's stating that Pikkon's smarter and faster, who knows; it's open heavily to interpretation.

There's plenty of lines and things not in guidebooks, if we see an alien whose race isn't mentioned, does that mean the alien's race does not exist? Nothing in the guidebooks/anime either state that his attack was greater than his entire power, just that he was defeated. It's pretty subjective to believe Cell's max was stronger or that Pikkon's attack was stronger.

@FindKenshi
If anyone wants to confirm this, that'd be great.

[lash]

Kaio being surprised could be attributed to a lot of factors, having nothing to do with his attack. It could simply be because he's stating that Paikuhan's smarter and faster, who knows; it's open heavily to interpretation.

There's plenty of lines and things not in guidebooks, if we see an alien whose race isn't mentioned, does that mean the alien's race does not exist? Nothing in the guidebooks/anime either state that his attack was greater than his entire power, just that he was defeated. It's pretty subjective to believe Cell's max was stronger or that Paikuhan's attack was stronger.

Kaio wasn't surprised.

Your argument is equivalent to saying that just because it's not stated Gregory isn't a mutated cabbage patch kid, doesn't mean he isn't. And that since nothing in the manga says he 'isn't' a mutated cabbage patch kid it is just as subjective to think he is one compared to if he wasn't one. It's a pretty bad fallacy you're hovering around. If you have no evidence, you're making unfounded claims.

[Perfect]

My apologies, I meant not surprised.

No I'm afraid that's not the same. Because there's still the possibility of Cell's maximum > Pikkon's attack and Pikkon's attack > Cell's maximum. Neither is stated, but both are possible. Hell you wouldn't even need subjective material to prove he isn't one, you'd just need an out of universe explanation, and one could accumulate millions (I bet I could prove he isn't one with an in universe explanation as well). I'm making no more "unfounded" claims than you. The only thing that's set in stone was Pikkon winning, nothing else. Yours theory of the mechanics on this situation are as valid as mine and therefore as subjective.

[paperbowser]

How is calling him a mutated whatever even possible? I mean that's just... I can't even come up with a term for it. Both of what you said is possible about Cell, but that isn't. That's where the lines drawn, I find it to be fairly irrelevant to even bring that up. What a fallacy.

[DNA]

My honest opinion after watching the arc was that Paikuhan was at the time the most powerful being in the After Life. He easily defeats Cell, despite the fact that you, Perfect, don't want to admit; and he was destroying Goku. The only reason Goku won was because he lured Paikuhan to a false sense of security and outsmarted him, not because he was stronger of even on par. Goku even admitted he was going to lose. And honestly? I would have preferred if Goku had lost, like in the earlier Tenkaichi Budokais. Goku would have lost against a more powerful person than him and this would motivate him to train further. The way the filler puts it, Goku beat Paikuhan and continued training out of boredom.

As a final note, I repeat, the way I saw it, at the time, Paikuhan was the strongest being in the whole After Life.

[Perfect]

I've already admitted he lost, that was never the issue here. In fact it was about his attack.

[paperbowser]

My honest opinion after watching the arc was that Paikuhan was at the time the most powerful being in the After Life. He easily defeats Cell, despite the fact that you, Perfect, don't want to admit; and he was destroying Goku. The only reason Goku won was because he lured Paikuhan to a false sense of security and outsmarted him, not because he was stronger of even on par. Goku even admitted he was going to lose. And honestly? I would have preferred if Goku had lost, like in the earlier Tenkaichi Budokais. Goku would have lost against a more powerful person than him and this would motivate him to train further. The way the filler puts it, Goku beat Paikuhan and continued training out of boredom.

As a final note, I repeat, the way I saw it, at the time, Paikuhan was the strongest being in the whole After Life.

and i repeat hes not

[DNA]

Perfect, I'm sorry, I just didn't read through the immense wall's of text you and others have posted, but fair enough. And paperbowser, what? Just because you say so?

I stated my opinion not just by watching Paikuhan bitch slap Cell around, but by watching the entire arc. Again, I refuse to read wall's of text to check on everyone's opinions on the matter but honestly, what the arc seems to present is that Paikuhan towers over everyone else in terms of power and skill. He was so confident he was about to win that Goku managed to outsmart him in the last moment. He was confident because he knows no one in the After Life can come close to his raw power. At least this is the way I interpreted the arc, it just seemed logical to me.

[Piccolo Daimao]

My honest opinion after watching the arc was that Paikuhan was at the time the most powerful being in the After Life. He easily defeats Cell, despite the fact that you, Perfect, don't want to admit; and he was destroying Goku. The only reason Goku won was because he lured Paikuhan to a false sense of security and outsmarted him, not because he was stronger of even on par. Goku even admitted he was going to lose. And honestly? I would have preferred if Goku had lost, like in the earlier Tenkaichi Budokais. Goku would have lost against a more powerful person than him and this would motivate him to train further. The way the filler puts it, Goku beat Paikuhan and continued training out of boredom.

They both technically lose, don't they? Because at the end of the match, the Dai Kaiou tells them that they both touched the upper ceiling simultaneously, resulting in a draw. And then, I think, there was something about the Dai Kaiou offering to train them for a hundred years, but they declined. I don't think that the filler made out that Gokuu was stronger than Paikuhan and/or that he just continued training out of boredom. Paikuhan still appeared multiple times afterward, and Gokuu's always motivated to push his limits (which is why he attained SS3).

I will give Toei credit for actually introducing characters that could give Gokuu some trouble (which is the entire reason why he wanted to remain in the afterlife: to check out if there were better challenges there), as opposed to the manga, where he says that there wasn't anybody on par with him in the afterlife. But perhaps that was a better lead into him deciding to take Oob under his wing to see if he could sate his boredom.

[DNA]

The fact that they were disqualified due to a technicality is irrelevant. And they didn't decline Dai Kaio's offer, he came up with the disqualification because he didn't want to be embarrassed by the fact that both Goku and Paikuhan had long surpassed his power level.

Yes, they don't imply Goku is stronger than Paikuhan, like I explained before, but I still think it would be more fair if Paikuhan had won.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The fact that they were disqualified due to a technicality is irrelevant. And they didn't decline Dai Kaio's offer, he came up with the disqualification because he didn't want to be embarrassed by the fact that both Goku and Paikuhan had long surpassed his power level.

Yes, they don't imply Goku is stronger than Paikuhan, like I explained before, but I still think it would be more fair if Paikuhan had won.

Yeah, that's true. I suppose it was just more of Toei's Gokuu-wanking.

[DNA]

Yeah, that's true. I suppose it was just more of Toei's Gokuu-wanking.

Well, yeah, it clearly was. Goku had no right to win that battle, he only won because Paikuhan got cocky and distracted somehow. I always prefer the Goku that doesn't always win but grows stronger from his loses.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, that's true. I suppose it was just more of Toei's Gokuu-wanking.

Well, yeah, it clearly was. Goku had no right to win that battle, he only won because Paikuhan got cocky and distracted somehow. I always prefer the Goku that doesn't always win but grows stronger from his loses.

Same here.