Warriors with no ki control

[peter291]

All of us basically understand what ki control means. In general, characters with this skill can lower or raise their power.

What about warriors such as Raditz, Nappa or Vegeta from the Saiyan arc? When you set a scouter on them you will always receive their maximum power level? According to Cui, Vegeta's power level, during the fight on the Earth, was about 18.000. Since he has no ki control, does it mean he always struck with such power? [of course when he was not tired or injuried]

As we know fighters are able to use various techniques- more or less powerful. Goku and Piccolo are able to power-up their kamehameha and makankosappo, which was detected by Raditz's scouter.
What, for example, about Vegeta's Garlick-ho, which was equally strong to Goku's 3x kaio-ken kamehameha? (about 24.000). Although Vegeta doesn't possess ki control, he can generate more power than his basic 18.000, right?
It will be sth like "power of Garlick-ho= basic power + Garlick-ho constant" ? for example 24.000= 18.000 + 6.000.
I hope you get what I mean. If Vegeta could control his ki, he would be able to fire this technique with any power lower than his max?

I hope that I explained my questions clearly enough. Waiting for your thoughts

[Haji]

From what i learned, It seems like they just fire off ki. No concentrating it, or focusing it in to one point, like the kamehameha or makenkosappo. They just let they're ki out. But for Z senshi they can suppress they're ki and power up. Or like how the english manga put it. They "rev" up. But it would seem that Nappa and Vegeta can raise or "rev up". So maybe Vegeta just raised his ki to max then let out the Galick ho.

[Piccolo Daimao]

What the story seems to tell us is that warriors such as Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta in the Saiyan can't manipulate their ki at all, meaning that even when they "power up" (which could be more for dramatic effect than anything) or fire off an attack, they'll still read at a constant, fixed level. I.e. when Vegeta fired off his Galick Gun, it would remain at 18,000.

As for why Vegeta's Galick-Gun was equal to Goku's Kaiouken x3 Kamehameha, it could be because Goku was weakened from using the Kaiouken x3 before, therefore his Kamehameha wasn't as potent as it usually was.

The only way their battle powers would ever alter is if they were injured or killed, but they can't control it at will. Characters like Captain Ginyuu and Freeza can apparently control their battle power, but to an extent. E.g. Ginyuu can go from around 90,000 to 120,000, but he's unable to completely suppress his battle power down to zero.

[peter291]

What the story seems to tell us is that warriors such as Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta in the Saiyan can't manipulate their ki at all, meaning that even when they "power up" (which could be more for dramatic effect than anything) or fire off an attack, they'll still read at a constant, fixed level. I.e. when Vegeta fired off his Galick Gun, it would remain at 18,000.

Well, those are exactly my first thoughts, when I consider a character with no ki control. It's quite difficult to understand that no matter what they do, their power will remain unchanged.

What about a punching machine test [machine that was used at 25th TB]. Would these guys be able to control themselves and get lower results like Goku and the others did? Of course we assume that machines are strong enough to take it .
If they could do that, it would mean that strength control is sth different than ki control.
I think it is a different thing. It's impossible that character without ki control always act with same strength.

[Piccolo Daimao]

What about a punching machine test [machine that was used at 25th TB]. Would these guys be able to control themselves and get lower results like Goku and the others did? Of course we assume that machines are strong enough to take it .
If they could do that, it would mean that strength control is sth different than ki control.

Hmm. That's an interesting question. Maybe, since #18 was able to, and I doubt she, an Android, can literally suppress her power. I think it's just a matter of not exerting as much effort as usual and actually suppressing your power at will. There's a difference.

[peter291]

Oh yeah, I forgot about No.18. An android, who doesn't have ki, can control herself and punch lighter. In her case, it's just a matter of more gentle touch. The same goes, I suppose, with Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta who were considered.

[Pantalones]

I think there's a lot of different degrees of ki control, not just "can suppress yourself down to zero, sense other people's ki, and blast off super-powerful attacks" vs. "can't do anything special at all."

At the absolute bottom of the barrel are guys who can't even shoot ki blasts on their own, like Freeza's thugs who are armed with those ki-blast gun things.

Raditz can at least fly and shoot blasts, but he still didn't seem to be able to do any real tricks with his ki, since he seems amazed by Goku and Piccolo using higher-than-base-power attacks and assumes his scouter is malfunctioning when little Gohan's level shoots up through the roof. Presumably his ki blasts are only more destructive than his punches and kicks (and tail-slaps) because of the nature of the attack itself (most plain ki blasts are bigger than someone's fist or foot would be, seem to be capable of burning on contact, and explode so they hit a wider area), rather than actually having a higher power level than what he could do normally.

Vegeta on the other hand seems to be able to fire blasts above his "set" 18,000, but he still couldn't sense other people's ki at all or suppress his power to hide from scouters like Goku and company could (at least, not until he learned how.)

And then there's Ginyu, who could suppress his ki to an extent, but couldn't actually sense anyone else's ki (though he was familiar enough with the differences between everyone's levels to make a good guess, pinning Goku at 60,000 based on how easily he took out Recoome, Jeice, and Burter and then changing his guess to around 85,000 after actually fighting him for a bit.) He's probably the best at ki control out of Freeza's entire army, considering that even Freeza himself couldn't sense ki, couldn't suppress his power very well (to the point where he avoids using his full power and needs transformations to keep his power down at a "don't accidentally cause too much collateral damage" level), and most likely couldn't make blasts above his "normal scouter reading" maximum (just going by how Goku, after going Super Saiyan, was able to take one straight in the face without really being harmed...)

[Piccolo Daimao]

Vegeta on the other hand seems to be able to fire blasts above his "set" 18,000, but he still couldn't sense other people's ki at all or suppress his power to hide from scouters like Goku and company could (at least, not until he learned how.)

Then why does he treat the Earthlings' manipulation of battle power as something foreign to him, is even shocked when they do it and explicitly says that he learned how to control his battle power from the Earthlings (which Kiwi, his rival, is shocked by)?

Chapter: 214 (DBZ 20), P4.3-5
Nappa: “981... 1,220... 1,083... Idiots! Do you really plan on defying us with that level of battle power...?!"
Vegeta: “These people change their battle power in response to the fight. Those figures can't be relied upon any more.”

Chapter: 223 (DBZ 29), P8.1-3/P10.4
Context: Vegeta was astonished at how high the Earthling’s power could rise at once. This time it was through Gohan’s Masenko attack.
Kuririn: “Is that G…Goku’s son…!? Wh…what an incredible ki…!!!”
Vegeta: “Battle power 2,800...!!! So they really do drastically change their battle powers!!”
Nappa: “2,800, eh?!!”
*Nappa blocks the attack*
Vegeta: “His power dropped all the way down. It seems he used it all up just now.”

Chapter: 222 (DBZ 28), P4.1
Vegeta: “Someone with a battle ability of about 5,000...!!”
Nappa: “5,000?! That’s impossible! It has to be a mistake.”
Vegeta: “It’s truly an unthinkable figure for the old Kakarot. What’s more, the people here are able to alter their figures…So 5,000 could just be his minimum.”

Chapter: 248 (DBZ 54), P14.2-5
Context: More of Kui mistakenly thinking Vegeta’s power has declined.
Kyui: “Looks like you’ve gotten worse. With that battle power, you have no chance of winning.”
Vegeta: “Did you call us rivals? Kukkukkuku…Well then, I’ll show you something…An interesting thing that I learned from the locals when I went to Earth…[ ] How to control my battle power!”

Chapter: 257 (DBZ 63), P4.2
Context: talking about sensing ki
Vegeta: “It was simple once I got the gist of it. But it’s no use if you’re focused just on power, like you guys or Freeza…I was like that too until recently…”

I don't want to get into this again, but it's more like them just releasing more of their power to the surface, rather than literally increasing their battle power.

[Bussani]

What about a punching machine test [machine that was used at 25th TB]. Would these guys be able to control themselves and get lower results like Goku and the others did? Of course we assume that machines are strong enough to take it .
If they could do that, it would mean that strength control is sth different than ki control.
I think it is a different thing. It's impossible that character without ki control always act with same strength.

Oh, definitely. They have to be different. Having a battle power of 150,000,000 doesn't mean that every time you try to hop you go flying into space, you know? And Freeza's men don't accidentally demolish every piece of equipment they touch. But being able to lower your ki probably makes it easier to hold yourself back.

[Saiga]

Vegeta on the other hand seems to be able to fire blasts above his "set" 18,000, but he still couldn't sense other people's ki at all or suppress his power to hide from scouters like Goku and company could (at least, not until he learned how.)

Then why does he treat the Earthlings' manipulation of battle power as something foreign to him, is even shocked when they do it and explicitly says that he learned how to control his battle power from the Earthlings (which Kiwi, his rival, is shocked by)?

I think he means that Vegeta can't manipulate his ki, but when using certain techniques his ki is raised above 18,000 without his control.

[Bussani]

Some attacks are just better than others, like how the original Kikoho was just better than the original Kamehameha, so I suppose it is possible the Gallick Gun was just a particularly good technique. But I do like the explanation that Goku was weak from using the kaio-ken x3, personally.

[dbgtFO]

All of us basically understand what ki control means. In general, characters with this skill can lower or raise their power.

That's not the only things you can do, when you are capable of controlling your ki. Ki control should by all means also cover using your ki to fly, shoot blasts etc. Changing the numbers on a scouter is simply advanced ki control.

What about warriors such as Raditz, Nappa or Vegeta from the Saiyan arc? When you set a scouter on them you will always receive their maximum power level? According to Cui, Vegeta's power level, during the fight on the Earth, was about 18.000. Since he has no ki control, does it mean he always struck with such power? [of course when he was not tired or injuried]

As mentioned Vegeta could control his ki at that point, but just not to the same extent at the heroes, so you're right; a scouter should read his fight power as 18,000 throughout the battle, when he wasn't tired and/or injured.

As we know fighters are able to use various techniques- more or less powerful. Goku and Piccolo are able to power-up their kamehameha and makankosappo, which was detected by Raditz's scouter.
What, for example, about Vegeta's Garlick-ho, which was equally strong to Goku's 3x kaio-ken kamehameha? (about 24.000). Although Vegeta doesn't possess ki control, he can generate more power than his basic 18.000, right?
It will be sth like "power of Garlick-ho= basic power + Garlick-ho constant" ? for example 24.000= 18.000 + 6.000.
I hope you get what I mean. If Vegeta could control his ki, he would be able to fire this technique with any power lower than his max?

I consider the same two options as Bussani.

What about a punching machine test [machine that was used at 25th TB]. Would these guys be able to control themselves and get lower results like Goku and the others did? Of course we assume that machines are strong enough to take it .
If they could do that, it would mean that strength control is sth different than ki control.
I think it is a different thing. It's impossible that character without ki control always act with same strength.

Yes they could. Having a battle power in the thousands and not being capable of chaning the numbers on a scouter doesn't mean you can't consciously decide how much force you put in punches, kicks, jumps etc. Raditz even told Goku and Piccolo that he'd start putting more power behind his attacks after his surprise attack from behind.

Also just to make it clear: ki control does not exclusively mean being capable of changing the numbers on a scouter. Ki control simply means being capable of controlling one's ki. That could be for flying, running fast, punching/kicking hard, firing ki blasts etc. Being capable of changing the numbers on a scouter is simply advanced ki control.

[peter291]

Of course, you're right. There is a significant difference between basic and advanced ki control. It reminded me about Videl's lessons with Gohan.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think he means that Vegeta can't manipulate his ki, but when using certain techniques his ki is raised above 18,000 without his control.

That's still ki manipulation. Vegeta himself mentioned that he learned to control his ki from the Earthlings, so even when he was using the Galick Gun, his power would still read 18,000.

[Ketchup_Revenge]

Vegeta definitely had the ability to manipulate his resting ki output when he came to Earth. He powered up against Goku near the start of their fight. But it's obvious that he didn't seem to have the same level of control that Goku and the rest of the Z senshi did.

Which would also suggest that he could concentrate his ki attacks considering his Galick Gun matched Goku 3x Kaioken Kamehameha.

[FindKenshi]

Very true, Ketchup_Revenge. As has already been pointed out, Nappa did the same. For Piccolo couldn't recognize how strong Nappa was prior to his "power-up" (he 'never dreamed it would be this much'). And at one point, Piccolo couldn't even tell if Vegeta was really stronger than Nappa, but only suspected such based on Nappa's response to him. I think that all of us can also agree that Piccolo's and the other Z-senshi's ability to sense one's ki is far superior to a scouter's. Meaning a scouter would have logically shown Vegeta and Nappa as being lower, as well.

After all, Krillin could tell the Namekians were hiding their battle power. The scouters couldn't.

[Perfect]

Vegeta and Nappa could both use chi manipulation, otherwise they wouldn't even be able to fly. It's just not very good control/manipulation.

[FindKenshi]

In this sense, what did Vegeta "learn" from them? I think Vegeta "learned" to use this strategically to deceive an opponent. Maybe the thought had simply never occurred to them, before?

[Perfect]

He probably learned a better sense of control. A battle power isn't static at its maximum like when a character's suppressed, so likely as time goes it drops as they relax (poor control). So to conceal his battle power at will would definitely be one.

[Ketchup_Revenge]

Warriors who only view ki as a combat force don't have the ability to sense it. Something about their perception of it being too narrow-minded.

I don't know how Vegeta would've picked up that ability, unless he simply developed it on his own, not even knowing it could be done until he saw Piccolo sense Goku's approach.